Author Topic: BP Debate (split thread)  (Read 5825 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Mobius

  • Back where he started
  • 213
  • Porto l'azzurro Dolce Stil Novo nella fantascienza
    • Skype
    • Twitter
    • The Lightblue Ribbon | Cultural Project
BP Debate (split thread)
Ok, as expected, my post was a maxi-misunderstood one.

Spoiler:
Inferno and BP are two different mods but the Earth-GTVA war thing is cliché. The interesting thing is that the player fights for Sol so there are probably going to be several unplausible and overkill battles that end with Earth's victory. The war may be only the beginning, only an irrilevant part of the next BP release, but there's a good chance it'll turn out to be the core. There could be less character-centering parts, or at least less intense ones, due to the fact that it's a war fought by so many and not someone's attempt to get back home.

If you think that wars between Sol and other colonies that restablish contact with it play Colony Wars.

Another important thing is not to blame Inferno for the poor storyline and characterizations. These are bad aspects that affected the old INF releases, not the WIP ones. Writing "INFR1" instead of "Inferno" would be polite, IMO.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2008, 06:09:36 am by Mobius »
The Lightblue Ribbon

Inferno: Nostos - Alliance
Series Resurrecta: {{FS Wiki Portal}} -  Gehenna's Gate - The Spirit of Ptah - Serendipity (WIP) - <REDACTED> (WIP)
FreeSpace Campaign Restoration Project
A tribute to FreeSpace in my book: Riflessioni dall'Infinito
My interviews: [ 1 ] - [ 2 ] - [ 3 ]

 

Offline Cobra

  • 212
  • Snake on a Cain
    • Minecraft
    • Skype
    • Steam
    • Twitter
BP: War in Heaven feedback
Ok, as expected, my post was a maxi-misunderstood one.

Spoiler:
Inferno and BP are two different mods but the Earth-GTVA war thing is cliché. The interesting thing is that the player fights for Sol so there are probably going to be several unplausible and overkill battles that end with Earth's victory. The war may be only the beginning, only an irrilevant part of the next BP release, but there's a good chance it'll turn out to be the core. There could be less character-centering parts, or at least less intense ones, due to the fact that it's a war fought by so many and not someone's attempt to get back home.

If you think that wars between Sol and other colonies that restablish contact with it play Colony Wars.

Another important thing is not to blame Inferno for the poor storyline and characterizations. These are bad aspects that affected the old INF releases, not the WIP ones. Writing "INFR1" instead of "Inferno" would be polite, IMO.

Man, you always find something in this campaign to complain about, don't you?

Spoiler:
It seems to me that you're only annoyed by how BP uses a GTVA/Sol war because you're on an Inferno team, and you fail to realize that a cliché is something that has been done over and over and over. Off the top of my head I can count maybe once or twice, Inferno included.
To consider the Earth as the only populated world in infinite space is as absurd as to assert that in an entire field of millet, only one grain will grow. - Metrodorus of Chios
I wept. Mysterious forces beyond my ken had reached into my beautiful mission and energized its pilots with inhuman bomb-firing abilities. I could only imagine the GTVA warriors giving a mighty KIAAIIIIIII shout as they worked their triggers, their biceps bulging with sinew after years of Ivan Drago-esque steroid therapy and weight training. - General Battuta

 

Offline General Battuta

  • Poe's Law In Action
  • 214
  • i wonder when my postcount will exceed my iq
BP: War in Heaven feedback
Yeah.

And also, it's clear Darius is retaining the character-centric focus in War in Heaven. The preview talks about the struggles of both Beis (father and son).

It's not at all clear that there will be 'several implausible and overkill battles.'
Spoiler:
The UEF ships are markedly inferior to their GTVA opponents, and that's made very clear.

Also, Sol society in Blue Planet is very different from that of Inferno. Very different.

 

Offline Mobius

  • Back where he started
  • 213
  • Porto l'azzurro Dolce Stil Novo nella fantascienza
    • Skype
    • Twitter
    • The Lightblue Ribbon | Cultural Project
BP: War in Heaven feedback
Actually it's the fact that I'm a Colony Wars fan and I don't see how an Earth-GTVA war alone can result in an interesting game immersion.

And you're wrong - if there's something I don't like about INF it's the EA-GTVA war :P


Spoiler:
Also, Sol society in Blue Planet is very different from that of Inferno. Very different.

How does Darius know about INF Sol's society if it's only going to be described in INFA1/INFA2?  :rolleyes:
The Lightblue Ribbon

Inferno: Nostos - Alliance
Series Resurrecta: {{FS Wiki Portal}} -  Gehenna's Gate - The Spirit of Ptah - Serendipity (WIP) - <REDACTED> (WIP)
FreeSpace Campaign Restoration Project
A tribute to FreeSpace in my book: Riflessioni dall'Infinito
My interviews: [ 1 ] - [ 2 ] - [ 3 ]

 

Offline General Battuta

  • Poe's Law In Action
  • 214
  • i wonder when my postcount will exceed my iq
BP: War in Heaven feedback
Because it's well-established that the EA is a military dictatorship. If that's changed, though, my apologies -- I was presumptuous.

What makes Blue Planet great is the characters, music, and aesthetic. I think we can trust Darius to use this war as a way to explore his characters further while presenting beautiful and sad set-piece battles.

I'm really excited to see how Sam deals with the trauma of
Spoiler:
fighting -- and fighting well -- against his own people. I've mentioned before that I think it'd be a great touch if you had to help destroy the Aquitaine. And I'm hoping that enemy, i.e. GTVA, capital ships will send distress calls that force the player to empathize with them.

It's going to be heartwrenching. And that's why it'll be immersive and great.

 

Offline Snail

  • SC 5
  • 214
  • Posts: ☂
BP: War in Heaven feedback
Another thing: canonically, the Delta Serpentis node in Sol is located near Earth. What led you to change the location in both AoA and WiH?
Well you can't talk you wanted to move it to Saturn (or was that DySko? Can't remember)

Anyway it could be moved since the Sol Gate is different from the original node.

Spoiler:
Inferno and BP are two different mods but the Earth-GTVA war thing is cliché.
It may be cliché, but if Darius does it well, which I think he will, it will be great. If you think including the concept itself is a cliché then I'd have to say you're just being a bit short-sighted. Sure it's been used in a lot of mods, but I'm sure Darius is going to introduce something new and interesting that will be brilliant. Just because it includes a random cliché idea doesn't mean the whole campaign/storyline is cliché. Anything but, in fact, 'cause as we've seen, Blue Planet has a completely different atmosphere to FS2 and is more character driven.

Spoiler:
The interesting thing is that the player fights for Sol so there are probably going to be several unplausible and overkill battles that end with Earth's victory. The war may be only the beginning, only an irrilevant part of the next BP release, but there's a good chance it'll turn out to be the core.
You're basically criticizing here something that you have no idea about. You haven't seen a single mission from WiH that includes an implausible and overkill battle and yet, you're already criticizing it. That seems to me completely illogical. Also I'm pretty sure that even if the war is a main bit of the WiH, as I said before it'll be done in such a way that it isn't cliché and done badly. Remember we saw a lot of interesting new themes like the artillery ship, railguns, salvo turrets, etc. which will certainly make battles very interesting if not more believable.

Spoiler:
There could be less character-centering parts, or at least less intense ones, due to the fact that it's a war fought by so many and not someone's attempt to get back home.
Not really... IMO, in fact, I actually think this war is an absolutely excellent opportunity for character development. It's humans fighting against humans for no clear reason. There can be character development on both the GTVA and UEF sides. The GTVA are the main enemy now, and they're not bad guys. They're humans just like the UEF, unlike in AoA where the main enemy were the Shivans, who are (as far as we know) faceless pawns. There's so much room for character-centered storyline development, just because there's a war doesn't mean it's not going to have character development.

Spoiler:
If you think that wars between Sol and other colonies that restablish contact with it play Colony Wars.
I like cheese.

Spoiler:
Another important thing is not to blame Inferno for the poor storyline and characterizations. These are bad aspects that affected the old INF releases, not the WIP ones. Writing "INFR1" instead of "Inferno" would be polite, IMO.
I'm on the team remember. :P

 

Offline Mobius

  • Back where he started
  • 213
  • Porto l'azzurro Dolce Stil Novo nella fantascienza
    • Skype
    • Twitter
    • The Lightblue Ribbon | Cultural Project
BP: War in Heaven feedback
Well you can't talk you wanted to move it to Saturn (or was that DySko? Can't remember)

Anyway it could be moved since the Sol Gate is different from the original node.

I can talk because the replacement has a believable explanation. :P

Uh, the Gate is different from the original node? Really?


It may be cliché, but if Darius does it well, which I think he will, it will be great. If you think including the concept itself is a cliché then I'd have to say you're just being a bit short-sighted. Sure it's been used in a lot of mods, but I'm sure Darius is going to introduce something new and interesting that will be brilliant. Just because it includes a random cliché idea doesn't mean the whole campaign/storyline is cliché. Anything but, in fact, 'cause as we've seen, Blue Planet has a completely different atmosphere to FS2 and is more character driven.

You completely misunderstood me.

I'm not doubtful of BP's characterization and plot originality. I'm worried about the battles...what I wouldn't like to see is an unplausible overpwning of GTVA forces entering Sol or defending Delta Serpentis(should the player's faction succeed in the first phase). You may find cool watching 3 Orions die in 2 missions or stuff like that but you have to admit that it would look pretty n00bish, it tends to BoE concepts and player overpresence(the most important event occur when the player is on the battlefield).


You're basically criticizing here something that you have no idea about. You haven't seen a single mission from WiH that includes an implausible and overkill battle and yet, you're already criticizing it. That seems to me completely illogical. Also I'm pretty sure that even if the war is a main bit of the WiH, as I said before it'll be done in such a way that it isn't cliché and done badly. Remember we saw a lot of interesting new themes like the artillery ship, railguns, salvo turrets, etc. which will certainly make battles very interesting if not more believable.

Another misunderstanding, wow...

Isn't the video on YouTube about the war with the GTVA? Don't you see overpwnage?


Not really... IMO, in fact, I actually think this war is an absolutely excellent opportunity for character development. It's humans fighting against humans for no clear reason. There can be character development on both the GTVA and UEF sides. The GTVA are the main enemy now, and they're not bad guys. They're humans just like the UEF, unlike in AoA where the main enemy were the Shivans, who are (as far as we know) faceless pawns. There's so much room for character-centered storyline development, just because there's a war doesn't mean it's not going to have character development.

Third misunderstanding?

Please note the difference between a war and someone's attempt to get back home. In the second case you have a better chance of focusing on characterization but in the first you have other thing to think and talk about. In case of war there will be little space for personal logs and confidential messages and more space for "official" cbs about the current status of the war...they're needed afterall, how can you expect a war to be carried on without informing any combatant?

Obviously, we don't know if the whole BP2 release will be about the war.


I like cheese.

The funny thing about you is the fact that you have poor experience of this genre of games if we exclude FS2. That doesn't put you in the right position to talk about cliches... :p
The Lightblue Ribbon

Inferno: Nostos - Alliance
Series Resurrecta: {{FS Wiki Portal}} -  Gehenna's Gate - The Spirit of Ptah - Serendipity (WIP) - <REDACTED> (WIP)
FreeSpace Campaign Restoration Project
A tribute to FreeSpace in my book: Riflessioni dall'Infinito
My interviews: [ 1 ] - [ 2 ] - [ 3 ]

 

Offline Snail

  • SC 5
  • 214
  • Posts: ☂
BP: War in Heaven feedback
I can talk because the replacement has a believable explanation. :P

Uh, the Gate is different from the original node? Really?

Well, the node moving of its own accord for no reason makes much less sense than the node moving after a 50+ year hiatus.

I'm not doubtful of BP's characterization and plot originality. I'm worried about the battles...what I wouldn't like to see is an unplausible overpwning of GTVA forces entering Sol or defending Delta Serpentis(should the player's faction succeed in the first phase). You may find cool watching 3 Orions die in 2 missions or stuff like that but you have to admit that it would look pretty n00bish, it tends to BoE concepts and player overpresence(the most important event occur when the player is on the battlefield).
I'm pretty sure Darius wouldn't be stupid enough to have 3 Orions dying in the first mission, because he is not a n00b.

And despite telling a story, BP is a game, not a movie. It's a fighter-centric game too, not a space RTS. So it would make sense that the most important events occur when the player (a fighter/bomber) is on the battlefield. If the most important events happen when the player is doing nothing then there's obviously something wrong there. Remember that BP focuses intensely on story but also has to include good gameplay and balance. Therefore, it's much better to experience the events and fight through them than simply hearing about them (What would be better, seeing the Galatea's destruction or just being told about it?).

Isn't the video on YouTube about the war with the GTVA? Don't you see overpwnage?
It's been stated that a single GTD Titan would be able to destroy the UED Solaris one on one. In the video, one destroyer kills 2 corvettes. Wouldn't it be expected that 1 destroyer would be able to destroy 2 corvettes?

Please note the difference between a war and someone's attempt to get back home. In the second case you have a better chance of focusing on characterization but in the first you have other thing to think and talk about. In case of war there will be little space for personal logs and confidential messages and more space for "official" cbs about the current status of the war...they're needed afterall, how can you expect a war to be carried on without informing any combatant?

Obviously, we don't know if the whole BP2 release will be about the war.
There could be both!

For example, there could be a command briefing and then a small chapter at the end in which the pilot admits he has had second thoughts about the events of the previous mission, in which he killed thousands of people on board a destroyer or some such. Sure there's a difference between a war and an attempt to get home, but there is still massive room for character development. Character development of a different dimension but character development none the less.

You completely misunderstood me.
Another misunderstanding, wow...
Third misunderstanding?
u hav2 lrn 2 Xpress urslf mre clearly or els we dun t no wat yor taking about lol like u made loads of speling mistakes an you cont write proprly we cont understand u cant say i misunderstud u since u cont spel lol

I like cheese.
The funny thing about you is the fact that you have poor experience of this genre of games if we exclude FS2. That doesn't put you in the right position to talk about cliches... :p
What the hell does that have to do with cheese? :wtf:

 

Offline Krelus

  • 28
BP: War in Heaven feedback
This conversation makes me want to kick a puppy off a roof.

 

Offline Snail

  • SC 5
  • 214
  • Posts: ☂
BP: War in Heaven feedback
This conversation makes me want to kick a puppy off a roof.
Oi. You're watching the legendary Mobius - Snail debates.

 

Offline General Battuta

  • Poe's Law In Action
  • 214
  • i wonder when my postcount will exceed my iq
BP: War in Heaven feedback
Snail always wins because he doesn't take things too seriously.

Quote

Another misunderstanding, wow...

Isn't the video on YouTube about the war with the GTVA? Don't you see overpwnage?

Two Deimos corvettes -- outdated and awful -- are destroyed by a top-of-the-line UEF destroyer. Following which we see a Titan destroyer, a modern GTVA ship, closing in on the UEF destroyer. There is no overpwnage whatsoever.

It has been established by Darius that UEF ships are inferior to their GTVA counterparts in direct fights.

Furthermore, did you miss the part at the end of Blue Planet where most of the GTVA expeditionary force defected to Sol?

Lastly, the amount of time spent on characterization is up to Darius. He's not in any way controlled by the fact that he's depicting a war.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2008, 10:09:17 pm by General Battuta »

 

Offline Stormkeeper

  • Interviewer Extraordinaire
  • 211
  • Boomz!
BP: War in Heaven feedback
Even when I first lurked on HLP, I figured Mobius-Snail debates were normal in their epicity and ... welll ... randomness. I like cheese too btw.
Ancient-Shivan War|Interview Board

Member of the Scooby Doo Fanclub. And we're not talking a cartoon dog here people!!

 

Offline Droid803

  • Trusted poster of legit stuff
  • 213
  • /人 ◕ ‿‿ ◕ 人\ Do you want to be a Magical Girl?
    • Skype
    • Steam
BP: War in Heaven feedback
Mobius - Snail debates are awesome :P
(´・ω・`)
=============================================================

 

Offline Rick James

  • Scathed By Admins
  • 27
BP: War in Heaven feedback
I can't wait 'til I get to see 'em debate politics.

Boystrous 19 year old temp at work slapped me in the face with an envelope and laughed it off as playful. So I shoved him over a desk and laughed it off as playful. It's on camera so I can plead reasonable force.  Temp is now passive.

 

Offline Androgeos Exeunt

  • Captain Oblivious
  • 212
  • Prevents attraction.
    • Wordpress.com Blog
BP: War in Heaven feedback
Mobius - Snail debates are awesome :P

To you, maybe, but I bet it gives the admins a headache.
My blog

Quote: Thursday, 14 January 2021, 1958 hrs UTC, #general
Dobbsylondon
Nobody's allowed out over here anyway.   I nominate E (as a fair and just overlord) to arrange a Zoom HLP Social.

The_E
wait what

 

Offline Jeff Vader

  • The Back of the Hero!
  • 212
  • Bwahaha
BP: War in Heaven feedback
But you have to admit that some of them are pure and authentic classics.

Now, keeping in mind that this is the Blue Planet: Age of Aquarius release thread...
23:40 < achillion > EveningTea: ass
23:40 < achillion > wait no
23:40 < achillion > evilbagel: ass
23:40 < EveningTea > ?
23:40 < achillion > 2-letter tab complete failure

14:08 < achillion > there's too much talk of butts and dongs in here
14:08 < achillion > the level of discourse has really plummeted
14:08 < achillion > Let's talk about politics instead
14:08 <@The_E > butts and dongs are part of #hard-light's brand now
14:08 <@The_E > well
14:08 <@The_E > EvilBagel's brand, at least

01:06 < T-Rog > welp
01:07 < T-Rog > I've got to take some very strong antibiotics
01:07 < achillion > penis infection?
01:08 < T-Rog > Chlamydia
01:08 < achillion > O.o
01:09 < achillion > well
01:09 < achillion > I guess that happens
01:09 < T-Rog > at least it's curable
01:09 < achillion > yeah
01:10 < T-Rog > I take it you weren't actually expecting it to be a penis infection
01:10 < achillion > I was not

14:04 < achillion > Sometimes the way to simplify is to just have a habit and not think about it too much
14:05 < achillion > until stuff explodes
14:05 < achillion > then you start thinking about it

22:16 < T-Rog > I don't know how my gf would feel about Jewish conspiracy porn

15:41 <-INFO > EveningTea [[email protected]] has joined #hard-light
15:47 < EvilBagel> butt
15:51 < Achillion> yes
15:53 <-INFO > EveningTea [[email protected]] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client]

18:53 < Achillion> Dicks are fun

21:41 < MatthTheGeek> you can't spell assassin without two asses

20:05 < sigtau> i'm mining titcoins from now on

00:31 < oldlaptop> Drunken antisocial educated freezing hicks with good Internet == Finland stereotype

11:46 <-INFO > Kobrar [[email protected]] has joined #hard-light
11:50 < achtung> Surely you've heard of DVDA
11:50 < achtung> Double Vaginal Double ANal
11:51 < Kobrar> ...
11:51 <-INFO > Kobrar [[email protected]] has left #hard-light []

 

Offline Darius

  • Moderator
  • 211
BP: War in Heaven feedback
*headache*

Thank you Mobius, your feedback is always welcome. Although it may be best to withhold feedback of the sequel until it gets released, but your enthusiasm is noted :P

 

Offline ShadowGorrath

  • Not funny or clever
  • 211
BP: War in Heaven feedback
Mobius and Snail are more alike than they think

 

Offline Snail

  • SC 5
  • 214
  • Posts: ☂
BP: War in Heaven feedback
Mobius and Snail are more alike than they think
That's idiotic. :rolleyes:

 

Offline terran_emperor

  • 7 Impossible Requests Before Breakfast
  • 210
  • Kane Live in Death
BP: War in Heaven feedback
Mobius and Snail are more alike than they think

Wonder what would happen if we locked them in a room together... :shaking:

***
Anyway, I agree with snail. Criticizing WiH based on the Videos is stupid. There is very little point in criticizing something that hasn't been released yet when you are using test footage as the basis of your argument. I mean, when WiH is released, those missions shown in the videos could be completely different. Therefore I'm willing to reserve judgment until I've played WiH.

Also, just be cause INF R1 was (as far as i know) the first FRED project to feature a major war with the Sol forces, doesn't make it a cliche. IMHO that would make INF R1 a cliche of the Colony Wars games
e = m csarged - Relativity according to Sarge [Red vs Blue]

TRUE SHIVAN

HLP's only Goro Naya (Great Leader) fan


"I really wasn't expecting this much losership"


"Only one thing is impossible for a Vorlon to understand: How to change the IRQ setting in any DOS computer."

HLP Brit