Author Topic: Nuclear powered airplanes.....  (Read 6831 times)

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Offline Kosh

  • A year behind what's funny
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Nuclear powered airplanes.....
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment/article5024190.ece

Quote
“If we want to continue to enjoy the benefits of air travel without hindrance from environmental concerns, we need to explore nuclear power. If aviation remains wedded to fossil fuels, it will run into serious trouble,” he said.

“Unfortunately, nuclear power has been demonised but it has the potential to be very beneficial to mankind.”

Professor Poll said an alternative to carrying nuclear reactors on aircraft would be to develop aircraft fuelled by hydrogen extracted from sea water by nuclear power stations.

However, he said that while hydrogen could be suitable for ground-based transport, its energy density was much lower than kerosene and it would be

And he is absolutely correct in his assessment. Thoughts?
"The reason for this is that the original Fortran got so convoluted and extensive (10's of millions of lines of code) that no-one can actually figure out how it works, there's a massive project going on to decode the original Fortran and write a more modern system, but until then, the UK communication network is actually relying heavily on 35 year old Fortran that nobody understands." - Flipside

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Offline watsisname

Re: Nuclear powered airplanes.....
What's with the sudden interest in nuclear power?
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Offline Spicious

  • Master Chief John-158
  • 210
Re: Nuclear powered airplanes.....
It's probably somehow related to certain other sources of energy running out rather rapidly.

 

Offline Kosh

  • A year behind what's funny
  • 210
Re: Nuclear powered airplanes.....
What's with the sudden interest in nuclear power?

What Spicious said + fossil fuels are bad for a number of reasons (heavily polluting, bad for the locals, magnet for corruption, magnet for war, dependency on Saudi Arabia, and probably a few other things too).
"The reason for this is that the original Fortran got so convoluted and extensive (10's of millions of lines of code) that no-one can actually figure out how it works, there's a massive project going on to decode the original Fortran and write a more modern system, but until then, the UK communication network is actually relying heavily on 35 year old Fortran that nobody understands." - Flipside

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Offline Wanderer

  • Wiki Warrior
  • 211
  • Mostly harmless
Re: Nuclear powered airplanes.....
Heh.. also ruskies got their nuclear powered aircraft flying with reactor - though they seemed to believe that operational flight time of the aircraft was limited by radiation sickness.. Also one another bright idea born from the nuclear powered flight was the - possibly warheadless, as it didn't really need any - cruise missile which apparently luckily never left the drawing boards...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupolev_Tu-119
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Pluto

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Offline Kosh

  • A year behind what's funny
  • 210
Re: Nuclear powered airplanes.....
I am pretty sure that in this day and age we would put enough shielding around the reactor to deal with the radiation.
"The reason for this is that the original Fortran got so convoluted and extensive (10's of millions of lines of code) that no-one can actually figure out how it works, there's a massive project going on to decode the original Fortran and write a more modern system, but until then, the UK communication network is actually relying heavily on 35 year old Fortran that nobody understands." - Flipside

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Offline Maniax

  • 22
Re: Nuclear powered airplanes.....
Seems like something that'd be great until the day one of the planes crashes and nuclear material lands in some residential neighborhood.  I don't have a problem with a submarine or carrier hauling a reactor across the ocean, or even with a couple sitting in my backyard.  I do kind of have a problem with one flying over my head at 35,000 feet and 500mph, though :blah:.

 

Offline Spicious

  • Master Chief John-158
  • 210
Re: Nuclear powered airplanes.....
All the more reason not to live under flight paths. ;)

 
Re: Nuclear powered airplanes.....
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment/article5024190.ece

Quote
“If we want to continue to enjoy the benefits of air travel without hindrance from environmental concerns, we need to explore nuclear power. If aviation remains wedded to fossil fuels, it will run into serious trouble,” he said.

“Unfortunately, nuclear power has been demonised but it has the potential to be very beneficial to mankind.”

Professor Poll said an alternative to carrying nuclear reactors on aircraft would be to develop aircraft fuelled by hydrogen extracted from sea water by nuclear power stations.

However, he said that while hydrogen could be suitable for ground-based transport, its energy density was much lower than kerosene and it would be

And he is absolutely correct in his assessment. Thoughts?
We still can't store hydrogen gas efficiently enough to get a jet airplane running on it. There is an experiment going on in Switzerland about a fuel-cell powered GA jet (SmartFish), but don't ask me how it works. They don't seem to have gotten far with it yet.

I am pretty sure that in this day and age we would put enough shielding around the reactor to deal with the radiation.
No. The one thing that counts in radiation shielding, is mass. AFAIK. The one thing that counts in airplane design, is also mass. The Soviets did it, yes, but they had so little shielding that after a couple of years, most of the crews that flew it were dead.

 

Offline NGTM-1R

  • I reject your reality and substitute my own
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Re: Nuclear powered airplanes.....
And nuclear radiation accelerates metal fatigue like crazy.

I, for one, eagerly await our new thermonuclear jet engine-powered overlords.
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Offline Rick James

  • Scathed By Admins
  • 27
Re: Nuclear powered airplanes.....
Hey, don't knock it. Uranium-232 has a half-life of 69 years. If we can find a way to channel its power into sustainable thrust, then the savings on fuel costs alone would be more than worth it.

Boystrous 19 year old temp at work slapped me in the face with an envelope and laughed it off as playful. So I shoved him over a desk and laughed it off as playful. It's on camera so I can plead reasonable force.  Temp is now passive.

 
Re: Nuclear powered airplanes.....
True. Unfortunately, as long as we're talking about airplanes, there is none. Yet.

 

Offline Mars

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Re: Nuclear powered airplanes.....
Is it possible for Hydrogen to be stored much more densely? I believe the problem is not that it doesn't have enough energy / mass, it's that it doesn't have enough energy / volume.

 

Offline BloodEagle

  • 210
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Re: Nuclear powered airplanes.....
Me thinks that compressing large amounts of hydrogen into a relatively small place would be unwise.

  

Offline Rick James

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Re: Nuclear powered airplanes.....
True...it would be like the Hindenburg. Only this time at about 40 000 feet and moving at better than 300 miles per hours. And the boom would probably be quite a bit bigger.

Boystrous 19 year old temp at work slapped me in the face with an envelope and laughed it off as playful. So I shoved him over a desk and laughed it off as playful. It's on camera so I can plead reasonable force.  Temp is now passive.

 
Re: Nuclear powered airplanes.....
True...it would be like the Hindenburg. Only this time at about 40 000 feet and moving at better than 300 miles per hours. And the boom would probably be quite a bit bigger.

This bothers me the most.

The Hindenburg didn't go boom. It had an accident and all it's hydrogen slowly burnt out. Instead of rapidly crashing, it slowly drifted down.
Also, quite interestingly, the only two persons surviving the accident were in the cabin, the others died because they tried to jump out/other stupid stuff.
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Offline Mars

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Re: Nuclear powered airplanes.....
Me thinks that compressing large amounts of hydrogen into a relatively small place would be unwise.
Why would it be any more unwise than a nuclear powered airplane?
True...it would be like the Hindenburg. Only this time at about 40 000 feet and moving at better than 300 miles per hours. And the boom would probably be quite a bit bigger.
:wtf: Um... no. Jet fuel is quite as flammable as hydrogen. If a fuel tank is leaking at 40,000 feet, you're going to have problems, whether you're using hydrogen, ethanol or JP-5. Hindenburg burned because it used hydrogen as a means of making the blimp less dense than air. Copious amounts of fairly loosely contained hydrogen, combined with a readily flammable skin, it was a populated fire bomb. A plane would not have that problem, because the hydrogen would not be in a large open area contained by only a thin, flammable skin.

Planes engines do burn on occasion, sometimes with lethal consequences. Hydrogen would not change that, either way.

A nuclear powered plane would be a problem because in the event of a crash (and crashes will happen) the nuclear fuel has the potential to escape its containment, and a radiological disaster shouldn't be the result of every plane crash.

 

Offline admiral_wolf

  • 27
  • Commander of the Orion class Destroyer GTD Galatea
Re: Nuclear powered airplanes.....
Let's not forget these ideas have been floating around since 1964 (Gerry Anderson gave us this: http://davidszondy.com/future/Thunderbirds/fireflash.htm).

Personally, as an Aviation graduate, I'm all for finding alternate fuels for airlines, so that we can continue to enjoy the opportunity to fly for next to nothing.  However Nuclear powered aircraft concerns me.  Not only for those who live around the airport in case of fuel disposal or even worse material leakage.  But in this current climate, albeit, I fully recognise that these plans will take decades to go into motion if they get the goahead, we cannot rule out the attractiveness of flying nuclear reators to terrorists.  Just think of the global desvestion of an airbourne nuclear explosion would have.
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Offline Mika

  • 28
Re: Nuclear powered airplanes.....
I'm afraid nuclear powered aircrafts are far away in the future.

There are two reasons for this: the energy density is pretty good in kerosene and fossilized fuels (compared to current batteries for example). This fact rules out battery based systems, unless somebody figures out dramatic improvements on the energy density.

The second reason is that no matter what, there is a need of dense materia around the reactor, otherwise radiation will make a short work of pilots (and the passengers too). This increases the weight of the aircraft quite radically. And, unfortunately the materials (aluminum, ceramics, titanium) used elsewhere in the airframe aren't getting stronger at the same time, unless somebody adds more of them (which increases weight -> which increases power demands of the reactor -> which increases the weight of the reactor and thus the weight of the plane...)

Before someone says to install it in the tail of the aircraft, the answer is most likely not possible with current technology (says my common sense).  The reason being that airliners are according to my understanding, designed to be stabile, so their COGs should be located in the fore parts of the aircrafts. Adding a reactor behind will shift the weight heavily towards aft part, making aircraft unstable by nature, meaning that it doesn't want to fly straight and it doesn't want to recover - though this can be overcome with electronics, but I haven't heard about this being done in airliners (modern fighter aircraft are another case).

Besides, who of the passengers would then like to sit in the aft part? Discussions like these make me always think that in engineering point of view, oil has been pretty good compromise in the energy density, storage, safety and weight sides in the end. The only bad things are CO2 outputs and that it is running out. Let's say it is well understandable why it has been chosen as the main energy source in many applications.

Mika
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Offline IceFire

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Re: Nuclear powered airplanes.....
What if the airliner were a flying wing instead of the conventional design?  Not everything has to be so conventional :)

What if the reactor were a Fusion instead of Fission reactor?  The various Fusion projects are starting to bear some fruit...maybe that'd be the solution?

Actually I wonder if the solution would be to still have the reactor on the ground and that we'll have some sort of super battery or super capacitor (apparently such a thing exists) that could be charged enough for hours of flight.

Also...propulsion.  If we're using a electrical source like a reactor...would we be "back to" using propellers for nuclear powered airliners?  Even with super efficient propellers we run into the classic issues with drag that aircraft designers at the end of WWII experienced.  Essentially...the drag caused by the propeller increases exponentially the faster you try to go.  Even if our energy source was powerful...I wonder how good this could be made.

Interesting...sort of a thought experiment for the moment.
- IceFire
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