[Mobius]

Do you have any statistics to back that up?

I'm not entirely sure I doubt it, but I'd want to see evidence.

Were you refering to me? Well, I may find enough info on the internet to backup my assumption...in Italian...I have no clue on the situation in other countries.

If you're young enough to deal with a lot of <20 years old people you may surely notice a radical reduction of the average level of literacy/education.

So, indeed it would be a shame for anyone to not be familiar with Paradise Lost. They could still be literate though. It would just be the bare minimum of literacy.

Paradise Lost is a work of very high importance in the British tradition so it'd be a shame for a British to know nothing about it...as far as I know it's one of the basic elements of British literature being taught at school so, if you don't know it, you likely to ignore 95% of literature.

This example isn't global, though - most Italians(example) don't know what Paradise Lost is. Everything depends on the country.

[Polpolion]

IMO age has its importance. Modern teenagers tend to be much more illiterate than their 60s-70s-80s counterparts...even people who make it to the University fail to spell certain words - something like that would have been impossible a few decades ago.

Yes, we all know that if someone from Uni misspells a word, then they're stupid and should be kicked out of school.

Were you refering to me? Well, I may find enough info on the internet to backup my assumption...in Italian...I have no clue on the situation in other countries.

How convenient, especially in a topic discussing American illiteracy, not Italian.

If you're young enough to deal with a lot of <20 years old people you may surely notice a radical reduction of the average level of literacy/education.

As a 16 year old, the most that I can truthfully say that that's partially true. It's not America as a whole nation's problem, it's little pockets of population in random places' problem. I have yet to meet even one other student personally that can't read, and my school isn't the best off with state funding. I don't doubt that there's a problem in many areas, it's just that the article distorts this stuff a lot, if not statistically, then by leaving out information.

[Colonol Dekker]

I've not read paradise lost, but i'm far from uneducated. I just prefer different books. More Orwell, Shakespear, William Blake, Stephen King and independent authors. Also the singular of British is Briton.

[Silent Warrior]

General Battuta: Roofles!

I thought Paradise Lost was a rock-of-a-sort-band.

thesizzler: You know, that depends on what words they misspell. I'll forgive anyone who misspells e.g. 'cacophony' (in fact, I'm not 100% sure of its spelling in my native language...), but mixing up 'your'/'you're' is really embarrassing. (And every time I see someone mix up hangars and hangers I have to have a lie down.)

[General Battuta]

Roofles? What I have done that is worthy of roofles?

[Solatar]

The use of Paradise Lost as an example was just metonymy for literature in general. I didn't mean to ostracize anyone who hadn't read the particular work.

Misspellings are compounded by their recurrences. If I misspell a word here or there; no big problem (unless it's a final draft/thesis/published/supposed to have been edited). If I make nothing but stupid mistakes (it's/its, their/there/they're, etc.) and the paper is riddled with them I appear uneducated or at best lazy.

[Colonol Dekker]

Saved a drowning badger maybe?

[Mobius]

IMO age has its importance. Modern teenagers tend to be much more illiterate than their 60s-70s-80s counterparts...even people who make it to the University fail to spell certain words - something like that would have been impossible a few decades ago.

Yes, we all know that if someone from Uni misspells a word, then they're stupid and should be kicked out of school.

Completely false. Episodes like that simply lead people to think how bad certain High scools - and, overall, the society - are becoming. I don't blame these individuals who make mistakes, I blame the individuals who turned out be inconclusive teachers. There's a difference.

How convenient, especially in a topic discussing American illiteracy, not Italian.

The fact that I know the current situation of Universities in my country isn't that strange. As I said I may even post stuff - will you understand it? I don't think so.

Furthermore, the topic is also discussing a bit of global illiteracy. When you realize part of the problem is shared in many countries you have the right to extend the subjects, at least for quick references.

I've not read paradise lost, but i'm far from uneducated. I just prefer different books. More Orwell, Shakespear, William Blake, Stephen King and independent authors. Also the singular of British is Briton.

True, mine was a pure reference. I didn't say that people who haven't read Paradise Lost are ignorant, I simply said that people who know nothing about it and/or Milton are bad examples of individuals.

Obviously, I'm thinking of the British environment. Each country has its own must-know writers.

[Daniel P]

I found it Fake and very hard to believe.

About 90% in my school pass their English SOL.

2 years ago it was the lows 80's%.

It is only about 10% of the people who can't read. Maybe it the older people or the people who just don't care about a decent education.

[Solatar]

This leads to a simple sounding but very complicated question: If we are to educate somebody, what do we teach him?

What does academia owe to the next generation? We're far past a point now in human development where anybody can learn everything. Why am I taking classes next semester on European and British History? I'm a violinist; it won't benefit me.

Every time I go into a grocery store and see the aisle marked "ten items or less" instead of "ten items or fewer" I ask myself if that's who I'm going to be trying to impress when I graduate. Obviously this is a small example, just meant to illustrate the point. But if my university does a bang up job of educating me, and I pursue that education what guarantee do I have that it will even be recognized in the real world?

[Polpolion]

IMO age has its importance. Modern teenagers tend to be much more illiterate than their 60s-70s-80s counterparts...even people who make it to the University fail to spell certain words - something like that would have been impossible a few decades ago.

Yes, we all know that if someone from Uni misspells a word, then they're stupid and should be kicked out of school.

Completely false. Episodes like that simply lead people to think how bad certain High scools - and, overall, the society - are becoming. I don't blame these individuals who make mistakes, I blame the individuals who turned out be inconclusive teachers. There's a difference.

[/sarcasm]

How convenient, especially in a topic discussing American illiteracy, not Italian.

The fact that I know the current situation of Universities in my country isn't that strange. As I said I may even post stuff - will you understand it? I don't think so.

Furthermore, the topic is also discussing a bit of global illiteracy. When you realize part of the problem is shared in many countries you have the right to extend the subjects, at least for quick references.

Okay then. I'll go into FSdisc and start talking about Freelancer, because they both share many similar qualities. If you said what you mean, that should be all right with you.

I've not read paradise lost, but i'm far from uneducated. I just prefer different books. More Orwell, Shakespear, William Blake, Stephen King and independent authors. Also the singular of British is Briton.

True, mine was a pure reference. I didn't say that people who haven't read Paradise Lost are ignorant, I simply said that people who know nothing about it and/or Milton are bad examples of individuals.

Obviously, I'm thinking of the British environment. Each country has its own must-know writers.

Completely false. Just because people haven't read a book that everyone else has read doesn't make them " 'bad' examples " of people, just like not knowing how to read doesn't make someone dumb.

[Mobius]

Completely false. Just because people haven't read a book that everyone else has read doesn't make them " 'bad' examples " of people, just like not knowing how to read doesn't make someone dumb.

In fact I said that mine wasn't a reference to reading Paradise Lost. It was more about knowing the work and its author, even in a generalized way. You should study it at school and if you don't then there's something wrong.

I said Paradise Lost but it can be any other important work and its author...

[Polpolion]

Completely false. Just because people haven't read a book that everyone else has read doesn't make them " 'bad' examples " of people, just like not knowing how to read doesn't make someone dumb.

In fact I said that mine wasn't a reference to reading Paradise Lost. It was more about knowing the work and its author, even in a generalized way. You should study it at school and if you don't then there's something wrong.

I said Paradise Lost but it can be any other important work and its author...

Your reasoning is still flawed because there's no one capable of arbitrarily stating which works everyone should know.

[Solatar]

As I stated in an earlier post of mine (and I'm assuming Mobius is using Paradise Lost in the same sense that I am) Paradise Lost is metonymy for literature in general. Fine. Don't read Paradise Lost; but if you want to be considered educated you have to have read SOMETHING. Paradise Lost was initially just an example of a work of literature.

As you and I have both pointed out, this raises the question of what is to be expected of an educated individual? The academic community has unofficially adopted some sort of standard for an education, however. References to older Literature abound in modern literature and even cartoons and comics. If you're educated, you get the allusion and the point is made. If you don't get the allusion, the author probably isn't talking to you. You can claim that an education is what you make it out to be, but the reality is that being able to have an academic discussion entails a certain amount of conformity. If we're talking about politics, and I describe someone as Machiavellian, you either get it or you don't. If you've read The Prince (or at least have a working knowledge of the principles) you understand the point I'm trying to make.

[Kosh]

I found it Fake and very hard to believe.

About 90% in my school pass their English SOL.

2 years ago it was the lows 80's%.

It is only about 10% of the people who can't read. Maybe it the older people or the people who just don't care about a decent education.

In my high school freshman english period there were 40 students, and 10 failed, and ours was one of the better periods, others had failure rates of 35-40%.

[Flipside]

I have noticed an increased amount of poor spelling lately near me (London), even on company signs and shop fronts, which means it must have been proof read not only by the author, but also by the printers...

[Polpolion]

I found it Fake and very hard to believe.

About 90% in my school pass their English SOL.

2 years ago it was the lows 80's%.

It is only about 10% of the people who can't read. Maybe it the older people or the people who just don't care about a decent education.

In my high school freshman english period there were 40 students, and 10 failed, and ours was one of the better periods, others had failure rates of 35-40%.

What the hell was your school doing with 40 kids in 1 classroom?

[Colonol Dekker]

People nowadays are products of the wazzzup generation. Unfortunately pop culture overshadows established norms and conventions, at least in the more pliable masses.

[Mars]

To a certain extent it has always been that way.

[Kosh]

I found it Fake and very hard to believe.

About 90% in my school pass their English SOL.

2 years ago it was the lows 80's%.

It is only about 10% of the people who can't read. Maybe it the older people or the people who just don't care about a decent education.

In my high school freshman english period there were 40 students, and 10 failed, and ours was one of the better periods, others had failure rates of 35-40%.

What the hell was your school doing with 40 kids in 1 classroom?

All first year classes are big, but later on the herd gets noticably thinned out so class sizes go way down. 420 of us went in our first year, only 350 actually graduated, and that number would have been even smaller if the school had higher standards (and it was probably higher because we had so many asian kids going there). Yep, a graduation rate of 75% is considered good.......and I went to a  rich, good, suburban school, I hate to think what the inner city schools are like.....hell on Earth from what I heard.