Author Topic: Troops deployed in the homeland  (Read 3503 times)

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Offline Kosh

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Troops deployed in the homeland
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27989275/

Quote
The U.S. military expects to have 20,000 uniformed troops inside the United States by 2011 trained to help state and local officials respond to a nuclear terrorist attack or other domestic catastrophe, according to Pentagon officials.

The long-planned shift in the Defense Department's role in homeland security was recently backed with funding and troop commitments after years of prodding by Congress and outside experts, defense analysts said.

There are critics of the change, in the military and among civil liberties groups and libertarians who express concern that the new homeland emphasis threatens to strain the military and possibly undermine the Posse Comitatus Act, a 130-year-old federal law restricting the military's role in domestic law enforcement.


Is this even legal?


Maybe the conspiracy theorists will get something right for once.......
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Offline Mefustae

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Re: Troops deployed in the homeland
Yeah, I wouldn't think this is exactly legal under Posse Comitatus. But they could probably get around it by essentially labelling them as National Guard or some such.

Which is actually a good question. Is the national guard not considered part of the military and as such cannot be used for law enforcement under Posse Comitatus?

 

Offline Kosh

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Re: Troops deployed in the homeland
Quote
Which is actually a good question. Is the national guard not considered part of the military and as such cannot be used for law enforcement under Posse Comitatus?

They're reservists, I think.


I think the timing of this is kind of interesting. They just happen to start doing this while in the middle of a major economic crisis that is expected to get worse......
"The reason for this is that the original Fortran got so convoluted and extensive (10's of millions of lines of code) that no-one can actually figure out how it works, there's a massive project going on to decode the original Fortran and write a more modern system, but until then, the UK communication network is actually relying heavily on 35 year old Fortran that nobody understands." - Flipside

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Offline Tyrian

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Re: Troops deployed in the homeland
Posse Comitatus refers to a limitation on the government preventing them from using the military to enforce state laws on state property.  (If it's on federal property, then it's OK.) 

That law would probably place 20,000 regular troops on standby inside the country.  Because they wouldn't technically be doing anything, then it's legal.

If there was an NBC attack, the first thing the government would do is declare a state of emergency.  That would temporarily prevend the exercise of almost all the civil liberties of citizens immediately, up to and possibly including a suspension of the Writ of Habeas Corpus and the Posse Comitatus / Insurrection Acts.  That would allow the national government to use the military as a police force to maintain public order.

My opinion:  I'm not a huge fan of it, but the government is completely within its rights on this one, to my knowledge, at least.
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Offline Bluecap

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Re: Troops deployed in the homeland
Technically we've already had the same sort of troops ready to deploy for a very similar situation (biological warfare) for much longer. There are only two agencies in the United States with the training, faculties, and equipment to handle a biological situation: USAMRIID and the CDC, so this is nothing new. In fact, I wouldn't be too surprised if USAMRIID and its sister-department, USAMRICD, were part of that training procedure.
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Offline Mobius

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Re: Troops deployed in the homeland
That's pretty much like what is already happening here in Italy: the government led the military to deploy 3,000 troops to help police officers with security matters.

The point is, what is the population going to think? Here people are feeling a bit safer but Americans might have a different reaction(especially after the recent threats from Al Qaeda)...
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Offline Galemp

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Re: Troops deployed in the homeland
Just so long as I don't have to quarter them in my home. Respect the Third Amendment!
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Offline Nuclear1

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Re: Troops deployed in the homeland
Yeah, we should have a force to defend the country, to guard the nation, to secure the homeland...

Too bad we don't have anything to fit those roles already. Send in the active duty troops!

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Offline Mars

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Re: Troops deployed in the homeland
Nothing that the US is doing overtly will stop another terrorist attack. Sending a bunch of (no offense military ppl) grunts to do policemens jobs is a remarkable and illegal theatrical performance, but it still doesn't help. And honestly, you'd think we could be at least as smart as Thailand - our military shouldn't become politicized, that would be . . . very bad.

 

Offline Mongoose

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Re: Troops deployed in the homeland
I don't see that it's massively different than your standard troop deployment on domestic bases; it's just that they're organizing specific training for specific units allocated for disaster response.  If some sort of attack or natural disaster did occur, you'd want a decent-sized force that was already prepared to handle it.  So long as the troops aren't participating in any conventional law enforcement duties, I don't see how the eroding-civil-liberties argument is anything more than fearmongering.

 

Offline Davros

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Re: Troops deployed in the homeland
Yeah, we should have a force to defend the country, to guard the nation, to secure the homeland...


Who do you expect to be invaded by ?

 

Offline Bluecap

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Re: Troops deployed in the homeland
I don't see that it's massively different than your standard troop deployment on domestic bases; it's just that they're organizing specific training for specific units allocated for disaster response.  If some sort of attack or natural disaster did occur, you'd want a decent-sized force that was already prepared to handle it.  So long as the troops aren't participating in any conventional law enforcement duties, I don't see how the eroding-civil-liberties argument is anything more than fearmongering.

This is correct. As I mentioned, in a biological warfare case, there are only two institutions currently qualified to handle this: United States Army Medical Research Institute of Infectious Diseases (USAMRIID) and the Center for Disease Control (CDC). The military arm has been around for quite a long time (since the 50's) and has even been showcased in books like The Hot Zone or (incorrectly portrayed) in movies like Outbreak (loosely based on The Hot Zone). This is due to the extremely specialized nature of the diseases in question and knowledge required to handle them, the cost of equipment required to isolate, diagnose, quarantine, and protect adequately (Bio-Safety Level 4 research is not cheap; my local hospital university is still trying to acquire funding to create its own BSL4 lab), and so forth.

Biological warfare is a legitimate terrorist concern. Likewise, you have the United States Army Medical Research Institute of Chemical Defense which has a similar responsibility, but on the chemical warfare front.

To answer the general fear that this is somehow violating laws, here's a Q&A period from one of the previous directors of the CDC, Dr. Frederick A. Murphy:

Quote
Q:  There are a number of issues concerning the response to an epidemic raised by both "The Hot Zone" and "Outbreak". How well did these describe the interaction of the various agencies?

A: The movie Outbreak created some false impressions. The law in our country gives the responsibility for epidemic management to state health departments, with these agencies calling the CDC when they need help. CDC has no authority to go into a state except by invitation. The Army could be called in by a state health department, but to my knowledge this never has happened.

In the Reston incident, the Virginia Health department and the CDC took over the human health side of the episode and the Army, at the request of the monkey import company, took over the animal side. It turned out after lots of surveillance of animal caretakers and their families that there was no human disease, but there was plenty of monkey disease. The Army's role involved depopulating the monkey colony. So the movie Outbreak, where the Army takes over, is rather fictional.

Source: http://www.accessexcellence.org/WN/NM/interview_murphy.php

You need experts with the budget to handle necessary concerns. State governments typically do not have the resources or capabilities to deal with nuclear fallout, chemical or biological warfare, etc.
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Re: Troops deployed in the homeland
I think when we recall our troops, we should disband their units and discharge them.  Then they can help with the unemployment crisis.  That's a far better solution than training them to deal with attacks that I'm still in denial about.

 

Offline Polpolion

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Re: Troops deployed in the homeland
Yeah, we should have a force to defend the country, to guard the nation, to secure the homeland...


Who do you expect to be invaded by ?

Wasn't that said in the article?

 

Offline Bob-san

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Re: Troops deployed in the homeland
I think when we recall our troops, we should disband their units and discharge them.  Then they can help with the unemployment crisis.  That's a far better solution than training them to deal with attacks that I'm still in denial about.
You DO realize that US Army employs about 1,080,000, the Navy 332,000, the Marines 194,000, the Air Force 239,000, and the National Guard 567,000? The military as a whole is the largest employer in the USA. Removing many from service will just flood the economy with unemployed people yet again--similar to what happened with the post-WWI recession. At a bad time such as now, I think it would be a bad idea to remove units from service. And also realize that every member of the US military signed up or stayed on knowing that deployment to Iraq or Afghanistan were possibilities, and very likely.

Anyways--I think that  the move is neither good nor bad. The need is definitely there--a chemical attack can cause a lot of damage.
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Offline Bluecap

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Re: Troops deployed in the homeland
Mr. Beefcake, I think, was being very sarcastic. :)
"Curiously enough, the only thing that went through the mind of the bowl of petunias as it fell was 'Oh no, not again'. Many people have speculated that if we knew exactly why the bowl of petunias had thought that, we would know a lot more about the nature of the universe than we do now." - HHGTG, Douglas Adams

 
Re: Troops deployed in the homeland
You DO realize that US Army employs about 1,080,000

I thought we used an army of one.

  

Offline Kosh

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Re: Troops deployed in the homeland
Quote
I don't see that it's massively different than your standard troop deployment on domestic bases;





The difference being they aren't standing around on everyday street corners with fully loaded automatic weapons.

Quote
it's just that they're organizing specific training for specific units allocated for disaster response.


From a different article:

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They may be called upon to help with civil unrest and crowd control or to deal with potentially horrific scenarios such as massive poisoning and chaos in response to a chemical, biological, radiological, nuclear or high-yield explosive, or CBRNE, attack.


The second part is understandable, but the first part sounds more like policing.


« Last Edit: December 03, 2008, 05:55:45 pm by Kosh »
"The reason for this is that the original Fortran got so convoluted and extensive (10's of millions of lines of code) that no-one can actually figure out how it works, there's a massive project going on to decode the original Fortran and write a more modern system, but until then, the UK communication network is actually relying heavily on 35 year old Fortran that nobody understands." - Flipside

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Offline Bluecap

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Re: Troops deployed in the homeland
The National Guard has always been on call for civil unrest and crowd control. Still nothing new.
"Curiously enough, the only thing that went through the mind of the bowl of petunias as it fell was 'Oh no, not again'. Many people have speculated that if we knew exactly why the bowl of petunias had thought that, we would know a lot more about the nature of the universe than we do now." - HHGTG, Douglas Adams

 

Offline Kosh

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Re: Troops deployed in the homeland
The National Guard has always been on call for civil unrest and crowd control. Still nothing new.


Aren't these guys regular Army?

Plus, Bush took control of the National Guard two years ago

Quote
Public Law 109-364, or the "John Warner Defense Authorization Act of 2007" (H.R.5122) (2), which was signed by the commander in chief on October 17th, 2006, in a private Oval Office ceremony, allows the President to declare a "public emergency" and station troops anywhere in America and take control of state-based National Guard units without the consent of the governor or local authorities, in order to "suppress public disorder.

Now that was something new.
"The reason for this is that the original Fortran got so convoluted and extensive (10's of millions of lines of code) that no-one can actually figure out how it works, there's a massive project going on to decode the original Fortran and write a more modern system, but until then, the UK communication network is actually relying heavily on 35 year old Fortran that nobody understands." - Flipside

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