[IPAndrews]

The Prime Minister of England pledges support for pick and mix sweet and general junk you don't need retailer, Woolworths.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7751714.stm

This is way past ridiculous. Why the hell aren't we on the streets about this? Out taxes should not go towards bailing out failed companies! That's not the illusion of capitalism we all bought into!

[iamzack]

This is way past ridiculous. Why the hell aren't we on the streets about this?

A massive number of people are connected to these companies by way of being:

A) directly employed by (working for) them.
B) indirectly employed by (working for companies which rely on) them.
C) dependent upon the above.
D) related to/friends with the above.

[IPAndrews]

And?

[karajorma]

I guess the government think it's better to bail them out than to have to pay unemployment benefit for 30,000 people over the Christmas period.

[Polpolion]

My dad works on automotive stuff. But GM is only one employer of the company he works for.

The biggest employer of his company is the U.S. Army.

His companies not going out of business any time soon.

BTW, I don't think it's automotive stuff in itself, he's working on coding diagnostics suites for vehicles. Like you can plug it into a car and the car will tell it what's broken  in the car.

[iamzack]

And?

And so the rest of us aren't directly affected. It's not like they're coming and taking money from you and giving it to the companies. They're taking money they already got from you and...

Well, actually, wait. There's not actually any money.

[Mars]

It's an excellent realization to make.

Once you realize that the US economy doesn't make any sense and should fail at any time, it's a lot less frightening.

kinda.

It's like watching something hover above the ground.

[Roanoke]

I guess the government think it's better to bail them out than to have to pay unemployment benefit for 30,000 people over the Christmas period.

Yeah best to wait for the January sales when everything's cheaper....

[vyper]

The Prime Minister of Britain pledges support for pick and mix sweet and general junk you don't need retailer, Woolworths.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7751714.stm

This is way past ridiculous. Why the hell aren't we on the streets about this? Out taxes should not go towards bailing out failed companies! That's not the illusion of capitalism we all bought into!

Fixed, pay attention.

I guess the government think it's better to bail them out than to have to pay unemployment benefit for 30,000 people over the Christmas period.

Indeed. If any of the big three went under in the current climate, all this talk of the great depression would start to have a certain resonance with the US public.

[iamzack]

Back on topic!

[DeepSpace9er]

These automakers shouldnt get a dime of tax payer money to subsidize their failed business model, or the unions they employ at rates that are uncompetitive with foreign automakers that employ Americans.

Bankruptcy wont wipe out the company. It is the best option for them to take. The only one that will be viable. The government coming in and essentially nationalizing them isnt going to work. They are going to place all these demands on what kind of cars, how big, fuel efficiency etc. that will hamper their ability to be a successful company again.

Why should I, a taxpayer, subsidize some joe six-pack's union wage and job just because he works for a failing company? There is no such thing as 'too big, too economically important to fail' folks.. it happens all the time yet the world is still here. If anything, subsidizing the failure prevents those who compete against them with successful models from becoming stronger.

[Mars]

If you don't mind going back to a barter system you might be correct, however, I value the ability to have a job, get money, and have places to spend that money.

[Androgeos Exeunt]

Was the bailout vetoed? I heard that it didn't get approval.

[karajorma]

The government coming in and essentially nationalizing them isnt going to work.

That's the most ridiculous thing about this whole nonsense. The government isn't even nationalising them. It's bailing them out but getting very little in return.

At least when the British government bailed out Northern Rock the tax payers got something out of it.

In a case like that I don't have a problem with a bail out. It solved a lot of problems for account holders with NR and in the end the tax payer won't end up losing money. Hell, we might even make a long term profit on it cause we basically paid to nationalise a fairly big bank for a comparatively low sum.

The problem comes when you're propping up businesses that are going to lose you money because not only is their profit model flawed but the tax payer isn't actually getting anything out of it which will equal the money they put in.

[Black Wolf]

The government coming in and essentially nationalizing them isnt going to work.

That's the most ridiculous thing about this whole nonsense. The government isn't even nationalising them. It's bailing them out but getting very little in return.

At least when the British government bailed out Northern Rock the tax payers got something out of it.

In a case like that I don't have a problem with a bail out. It solved a lot of problems for account holders with NR and in the end the tax payer won't end up losing money. Hell, we might even make a long term profit on it cause we basically paid to nationalise a fairly big bank for a comparatively low sum.

The problem comes when you're propping up businesses that are going to lose you money because not only is their profit model flawed but the tax payer isn't actually getting anything out of it which will equal the money they put in.

I've noticed this as well. The Americans are so scared of anything that even looks vaguely like socialism that they'd rather give money away than, shock horror, nationalize something. It's funny, in a sad sort of a way.

[DeepSpace9er]

I've noticed this as well. The Americans are so scared of anything that even looks vaguely like socialism that they'd rather give money away than, shock horror, nationalize something. It's funny, in a sad sort of a way.

The plan is to have the government take a minority share of the company and have a 'car czar' appointed by the president. So its not full out 100% government ownership but its still a foot in the door of a private corporation. Us Americans dont want nationalization because we know the government cant run **** right (read: katrina, fannie mae, freddie mac) and they dont have the constitutional authority to do this. They will assert that authority in doing this if the supreme court doesnt challenge it.

Another thing that bothers me is the whole "If we dont bail them out the economy is going to collapse!! Its urgent! We MUST bail them out!" Yeah well that was the premise of the whole 700 billion dollar bailout. Yet none of the money has yet to go to the original purpose of the bailout, or very little. The bill was loaded with pork, and the false urgency was just another way to scam the american people into accepting it.

[vyper]

The government coming in and essentially nationalizing them isnt going to work.

That's the most ridiculous thing about this whole nonsense. The government isn't even nationalising them. It's bailing them out but getting very little in return.

At least when the British government bailed out Northern Rock the tax payers got something out of it.

In a case like that I don't have a problem with a bail out. It solved a lot of problems for account holders with NR and in the end the tax payer won't end up losing money. Hell, we might even make a long term profit on it cause we basically paid to nationalise a fairly big bank for a comparatively low sum.

The problem comes when you're propping up businesses that are going to lose you money because not only is their profit model flawed but the tax payer isn't actually getting anything out of it which will equal the money they put in.

I have to disagree with you on Northern Rock. Not becase I felt it should fail, far from it, but because the Virgin Group had a very compelling bid package ready within months of the cracks starting to show - but because the government wasted so much time, and the press misinterpreted the numbers (making it looks like Virgin would make millions at the taxpayers expense) the bid fell through.

For a period of time NR was still viable as a non-nationalised entity - but the window of opportunity to ensure it's continuaton as such was missed.

[karajorma]

I don't disagree with you to be honest. My point was that at least the taxpayer didn't get screwed over NR.

Us Americans dont want nationalization because we know the government cant run **** right (read: katrina, fannie mae, freddie mac)

I always love this sort of comment. It's almost as if you believe the companies were doing a good job running themselves in the first place.

[Mongoose]

We don't in the least.  But in many of our minds, giving them the ability to fail on their own is far more valuable than saying that the government can just step in at the drop of a hat and scoop them up.  It may be hard to understand on the other side of the Atlantic, but your average American citizen, even many of those who consider themselves on the "liberal" side of the aisle, would never accept that sort of model, and you can trace the reasons for that sentiment back to the means by which the country was founded.

That being said, I am in favor of some sort of limited financial aid until they can get themselves restructured, provided there are plenty of significant strings attached to it.  But with the Senate bill failing to garner nearly enough votes, who knows where things go now.

[Mars]

I personally think that the US government could learn a lot from the Europeaon systems of government and economy.

I don't fear socialism. It angers me though when the government looks at all the poor normal people and says "You'd better work hard - it's capitalism" whilst giving large amounts of money to the multi-billion dollar corporations. Capitalism for the poor and socialism for the rich.

I loath the capitalist-consumerist and expansionist fiasco that many over here are virtually brainwashed to, and everyone is at least partially involved in. I'd really love to see the US become a net producer, rather than a nation slowly succumbing to debt owed to China, all over cheap ****.

And I live in Colorado.