[mikhael]

Originally posted by Setekh


After the answers come more questions. Would you mind explaining this hierarchy to me?

How about I just quote the opening of the Silmarillion. Its the best explanation:

Ainulindale, The Music of the Ainur

There was Eru, the One, whoi in Arda is called Iluvatar; and he made first the Ainur, the Holy Ones, that were the ofspring of his thought, and they were with him before aught else was made. And he spoke them, propounding to them themes of music; and they sang before him, and he was glad. But for a long while they sang only each alone, or but few together, while the rest hearkened; for each comprehended only that part of the mind of Iluvatar from which he came, and in the understanding of their brethren they grew but slowly. Yet ever as they listend they came to deeper understanding, and increased in unison and harmony.

And it came to pass that Iluvatar called together all the Ainur and declared to them a mighty theme, unfolding to them things greater and more wonderful than he had yet revealed; and the glory of its beginning and the splendour of its end amazed the Ainur, so they bowed before Iluvatar and were silent.

Then Iluvatar said to them: 'Of the theme that I have declared to you, I will now that ye make in harmony together a Great Music. And since I have kindled you with the Flame Imperishible, ye shal show forth your powers in adorning this theme, each with his own thoughts and devices, if he will. But I will sit and hearken, and be glad that through you great beauty has been wakened into song.'

Then the voices of the Ainur, like unto harps and lutes, and pipes and trumpets, and viols and organs, and like unto countless choirs singing with words, began to fashion the theme of Iluvatar to a great music' and a sound arose of endless interchanging melodies woven in harmony that passed beyond hearing into the depths and the heights, and the places of the dwelling of Iluvatar were filled to overflowing, and the music and the echo of the music went out into the Void, and it was not void. Never since have the Ainur made any music like to this music, though it has been said that a greater still shall be made before Iluvatar by the choirs of the Ainur and the Children of iluvatar after the end of days. Then the themes of Iluvatar shall be played aright, and take Being in the moment of ther utterance, for all shall then understand fully his intent in their part, and each shall know the comprehension of each, and Iluvatar shall give to their thoughts the secret fire, being well pleased.

But now Iluvatar sat and hearkened, and for a great while it seemed good to him, for in the music there were no flaws. But as the theme progressed, it came into the heart of Melkor to interweave matters of his own imagining that were not in accord with the theme of Iluvatar; for he sought therein to increase the power and glory of the part assigned to himself. To Melkor among the Ainur had been given the greatest gifts of power and knowledge, and he had a share in all the gifts of his brethren. He had gone often alone into the void places seeking the Imperishable Flame; for desire grew hot within him to bring into Being things of his own, and it seemed to him that Iluvatar took no thought for the Void, and he was impatient of its emptiness. Yet he found not the Fire, for it is with Iluvatar. But being alone he had begun to concieve thoughts of his own unlike those of his brethren.

Some of these thoughts he now wove into his music, and straightaway discord arose about him, and many that sang night him grew despondent, and their thought was disturbed and their music faltered; but some began to attune their music to his rather than to the thought which they had at first. Then the discord of Melkor spread ever wider, and the melodies which had been heard before foundered in a sea of turbulent sound. But Iluvatar sat and hearkened until it seemed that about his throne there was a raging storm, as of dark waters that made war one upon another in an endless wrath that would not be assuaged.

Then Iluvatar arose, and the Ainur perceived that he smiled; and he lifted up his left hand, and a new theme began amind the storm, like and yet unlike to the former theme, and it gathered power and had new beauty. But the discord of Melkor rose in uproar and contended with it, and again there was a war of sound more violent than before, until many of the Ainur were dismayed and sang no longer, and Melkor had the mastery. Then again Iluvatar arose, and the Ainur perceived that his countenance was stern; and he lifted up his right hand, and behold! a third theme grew amid the confusion, and it was unlike the others. For it seemed at first soft and sweet, a mere rippling of gentle sounds in delicate melodies; but it could not be quenched, and it took to itself power and prfundity. And it seemed at last that there were to musics progressing at one time before the seat of Iluvatar, and they were utterly at variance. The one was deep and wide and beautiful, but slow and blended with an immeasurable sorrow, from which its beauty chiefly came. The other had now achieved a unity of its own; but it was loud, and vain, and endlessly repeated; and it had little harmony, but rather a clamorous unison as of many trumpets braying upon a few notes. And it essaged to drown the other music by the violence of its voice, but it seemed that its most triumphant notes were taken by the others and woven into its own solemn pattern.

In the midst of this strife, whereat the halls of Iluvatar shook and a tremor ran out into the silences yet unmoved, Iluvatar arose a third time, and his face was terrible to behold. Then he raised up both his hands, and in one chord, deeper than the Abyss, higher than the Firmament, piercing as the light of the eye of Iluvatar, the Music ceased.

[KillMeNow]

thats an explation/ i'm more confused than before

[mikhael]

Iluvatar creates the Ainur. Chief amongst them are the Valar, the First Ones. The Ainulindale, the song of creation, is given to the Valar and they sing. From their singing, including the discord of Melkor, the world, Arda is born.

Some of the Valar go into the world, charged with the task of preparing Arda for the youngest, shortest lived, and best loved of Iluvatar's creations: Man.

Other creatures, not as great as the Valar, but more numerous, called the Maiar were also created by Iluvatar. Among these are the Balrogs and the Istari. Melkor took some of the Balrogs when he fled the halls of Iluvatar for the lands of Arda. Another Maia, who goes, today, by the name Sauron, aligned himself with Melkor as well.

Later, when Melkor was gone from the world, Sauron--who like his master before him--had become bound to Arda and could not leave it, feigned reform and studied the Making of the Rings of Power with the elves and the dwarves. Unbeknownst to them, however, Sauron tainted the making of those Rings and created his own Ring, into which he poured his own power. That's the trick with the Ring: it is imbued with the power of one of Iluvatar's own creations, a Maia. And not just any Maia, but the one responsible for the fall of Numenor, the mightiest holdfast of Man.

The celestial order is a simple hierarchy, with Iluvatar at the top, with the Ainur beneath him, and the elves, dwarves and man below that. The Ainur themselves are divided into a powerful, but small, group called the Valar and a much larger, but weaker, group called the Maiar. Tolkien, in his letters, remarked that these were not the totality of the creations of Iluvatar, and that Bombadil represented 'those which would otherwise be absent'.

I hope that  clears that up.

[Nico]

Originally posted by mikhael
. Among these are the Balrogs and the Istari. Melkor took some of the Balrogs when he fled the halls of Iluvatar for the lands of Arda

how the hell can you assume that? I don't thnk it's written anywhere, and I've never heard about that either

[KillMeNow]

well i never read this but i have read many fantasy novels and its a common theme to throw gods into the mix in teh guise of men
perhaps your bombadil is this Iluvatar in disguise - if he sings is unaffected by the ring why not - although i admit he has a minor role for the main god but you never know

[Nico]

lol, actually, why not? nobody kknows what's up with the big I after all (ok, actually, I really don't think so but hey).
Well, LOTR settled the genre, but I think the god coming on earth are more inspired by morgoth and sauron than by Tom Bombadil lol

[Setekh]

Wow...

That's, ummm, rather cool...

[mikhael]

KMN: In his personal letter, Tolkien expressly stated that Bombadil was not Iluvatar and had never entered into Arda, existing wholly seperate from it.

Venom: I suggest you reread the Silmarillion. The Balrogs, some of the Maiar of Fire, aligning themselves with and joining common purpose to Melkor and Sauron is stated very clearly in the Silmarillion. It was pretty clear on this. As for the Istari being Maiar, that is never made clear in the Silmarillion itself, but Tolkien did say so explicitly in his letters.

[Setekh]

Mik, you know a lot about this. How long have you been reading Tolkien's work?

[KillMeNow]

hey were you get the audio books of lord of the rings the hobbit and what was the other one the silmari........ etc etc cause i while i normally read i cant be bothred at the moment hehe lazy you see =)

[Su-tehp]

mikheal knows his stuff about Middle Earth, that's for sure. He quoted that passage about Illuvatar and the Great Song right out of the Simarillion.

I also managed to find out quite a bit; I got ahold of a copy of "An illustrated Encyclopedia of Tolkien's Middle Earth", a damn good book of explaining everything that happened in Tolkein's Middle Earth saga.

Concerning the Balrogs: The Balrogs were Maiar in the beginning. They were originally great sprits of fire, but many of them were eventually corrupted by Melkor and became the Balrog demons. My buddy Fighteer (another big Tolkein fan) told me after we watched the FOTR movie in December told me that the Balrog the Fellowship encountered in Moria was supposed to be the last of its kind in the world. Certainly, no other Balrogs had been encountered in Middle Earth for centuries.

About Bombadil: I'm inclined to think that Bombadil is either a Maiar or a Valar, but I'm more inclined to think he is a Maiar (but I could be wrong). He is definitely NOT Illuvatar because Illuvatar never went into Middle Earth; He remained in the Timeless Halls with the rest of the Ainur who chose not to go into Arda. (Arda is just another word for Middle Earth, FYI.) The entire reason some Ainur chose not to go into the World was so they could remain with Illuvatar. Illuvatar is a man/creature/god/Supreme Being of his word: if he said he was going to remain in the Timeless Halls so that he could remain with the Ainur who refused to go, he would not have changed his mind and left them some time later on after he promised to stay. If Illuvatar stayed in the Timeless Halls and Tom Bombadil is in Middle Earth, then obviously the two are not the same person.

I'd like to give you guys an abbreviated timeline but there is just SO MUCH that occurs between the Great Song and the events of Lords of the Rings, I couldn't even give you guys a short timeline.

Cripes, the length of time between the Creation Of Arda and the Destruction of the One Ring covers 37,000 years!

Here's something else you guys may not know if you've only seen the FOTR movie: Arwen is about 2800 years old (yes, 2800!) and Aragorn, being a descendant of the Numenorean Kings, is blessed with an extended (but not immortal like the elves) lifespan. During the events of LOTR, Aragorn is about 87 years old! (Maybe he looks so young is because of the facial cream...? )

Oh yeah, Elrond (Hugo Weaving, the Agent Smith dude from "Matrix") is about 6000 years old and Galadriel (played by Cate Blanchett)...well, her age is harder to determine because she was born before there was a Sun in the world, so it's much harder to calculate her age in years. Suffice it to say that the time that spanned the creation of the Sun and Moon to the events of LOTR covers only about 7000 years.

(When they talk about the First, Second and Third Ages in the movie, they are talking about the Ages of the Sun. The race of Man awoke when the first dawn occurred, so the Men of the world awoke in Year 1 of the First Age. The Sun was created by the Valar about 30,000 years after the Creation of Arda and (I think) about 10,000 years after the Elves awoke. The First Age lasted about 700 years, then the Second Age began and lasted about 3400 years or so and ended when Sauron was defeated when Isildur cut the One Ring from Sauron's hand (as seen in the first few minutes of the movie). The Third Age lasts about another 3000+ years and ends with the One Ring being destroyed in Mount Doom. If I recall correctly, the One Ring is destroyed around the year 3020 of the Third Age. The Fourth Age, also known as the Dominion of Man because all the other races fade from the world at this time, begins shortly afterward.)

Galadriel had actually seen the Light of the Two Trees of Valinor (more on those another time but suffice to say they lit the world before there was a Sun and after the Great Lamps were destroyed), which would make her AT LEAST 10,000 years old (and more likely older)!

OK, I've rambled enough about LOTR for one sitting. If anyone has any questions or comments, let me know and I'll be happy to answer what I can.

[mikhael]

Steak, its not that I've been reading them or anything--or maybe I have. I dunno.

When I was small, like 5yo, my parents bought me the Hobbit storybook (the one based on the execreble animated movie). It came with a 45rpm record. I used to listen to that all the time whilst playing with my toys.

When I was 7 or so, I we moved within walking distance of a public library. I already read a lot at this point, but now I had an inexhaustible source of books. Over the next several years, I must have read the Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings about four or five times. I tend to read very fast, so the stories fade quickly. I have to reread things several times before it stick in my head permanently. I could not bring myself to get through the Silmarillion at this time. The writing style was too dry and I was really after a more action oriented fantasy story. The Silmarillion isn't a story: its a historical record in the same vein as the Old Testament of the Bible.

When I started year 7 in school, I had the great fortune to have an english teacher who believed that the Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings were meant to be read aloud. Over the course of that year, she read all four books to us, complete and unabridged, with voices. We were required to keep notebooks that annotated who did what, where they did it, and who they did it to and with.

Over the course of the next several years I read, reread, and read the books again-- and yet, I still could not bring myself to read the Silmarillion.

While I was stationed in Japan, I came to respect storytelling as an art of its own. Not just writing, but the complete cycle of storytelling. The Japanese culture, as a whole, takes storytelling very seriously--much more so than American, and to a lesser extent,  European cultures. Comics/manga, weekly serialized novels, and cartoons/anime play a large part in their lives. I have to respect that. One again, I read and reread the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings. I made my fellow servicement read some of them and got them hooked, and we would argue all night on 6pm-6am watches.

Since I've been back from Japan, I've worked jobs that have required long commutes (an hour to an two hours each way). I turned to audiobooks to help while those hours away. Previously, I had felt audiobooks to be a cop-out, that they were for people too lazy to read a real book. Those long commutes changed my mind. I started purchasing audiobooks of books I'd previously read in print form, and discovered that I really liked a well put together audiobook. The audiobooks impress me. I am not able to speedread an audiobook. I am forced to experience each sentance, word by word by word. They end up sticking with me longer, and I notice more details. I finally went searching for the Middle Earth books, and they were ALWAYS out of stock--but there was the Silmarillion. I knuckled under and listened. To my great surprise, the Silmarillion as an audio experience is one of the most powerful works Tolkien ever created. The cadences and languages seem intended to be spoken aloud.

I think I've read the books, in print form, between twenty and thirty times. I've listend to all of them as audiobooks seven or eight times.

Su-Tehp, I don't think that Bombadil can be either Vala or Maia, the more I think about it, and we know he is not Iluvatar. If you recall, Bombadil pointed out to the Hobbits that he existed in Arda before the first of the Valar came, before Ulmo and his lot. As the Maiar came after the Valar, Bombadil--if he was telling true--cannot be either.

[Su-tehp]

Originally posted by mikhael
Su-Tehp, I don't think that Bombadil can be either Vala or Maia, the more I think about it, and we know he is not Iluvatar. If you recall, Bombadil pointed out to the Hobbits that he existed in Arda before the first of the Valar came, before Ulmo and his lot. As the Maiar came after the Valar, Bombadil--if he was telling true--cannot be either.

If that's what Bombadil said (and I don't doubt you, because I haven't actually read Fellowship of the Ring) then you're probably right. Weird, though. If he's not Valar or Maiar and he's definitely not Illuvatar, and if he exisited in Arda before the Valar came, then what the friggin' hell is he?

[Nico]

he's not the only one to have existed before they came, the ent ( no need to put the name, I guess it's a different one in french) that merry and pippin meet is supposed to be the first sentient dude on Middle earth.

[mikhael]

The Ents did not exist in Middle Earth before the Valar came. The Ents were created by one of the first of the Valar to come to Arda. I cannot remember the Vala's name. I know it wasn't Manwe or Ulmo.

As I recall, the Creation of the Ents and the Elves are what inspired Manwe (was it Manwe? I can't recall) to create the Dwarves in secret.

[mikhael]

Originally posted by Su-tehp


If that's what Bombadil said (and I don't doubt you, because I haven't actually read Fellowship of the Ring) then you're probably right. Weird, though. If he's not Valar or Maiar and he's definitely not Illuvatar, and if he exisited in Arda before the Valar came, then what the friggin' hell is he?

As Tolkien said in his letters, Bombadil is there to represent those things that would not otherwise have been included, such as the brownies and sprites, spriggans and redcaps and the other fay folk that meant so much to Tolkien.

[Su-tehp]

Originally posted by mikhael
The Ents did not exist in Middle Earth before the Valar came. The Ents were created by one of the first of the Valar to come to Arda. I cannot remember the Vala's name. I know it wasn't Manwe or Ulmo.

As I recall, the Creation of the Ents and the Elves are what inspired Manwe (was it Manwe? I can't recall) to create the Dwarves in secret.

Elves and Men were supposed to represent Illuvatar's Two Themes of His Music. But between the Awakening of Elves and the Awakening of Men, the Ents were created by the female Vala who cared for plants and trees (I don't remember her name, but I'll call her "Gaia" for now) and shortly afterward the male Vala known as "The Smith" (I forgot his name too, but it wasn't Manwe) created the Dwarves.

Illuvatar wished Elves and Men to be alone on Middle Earth, but Gaia convinced Illuvatar that the Ents were needed to protect the plant life of Middle Earth from Melkor, otherwise Melkor and his minions would strip Middle Earth's forests of all life. After the Ents were created, The Smith decided to make a race of his own and created the Dwarves in secret in the caves of Middle Earth. Of course, no one can keep a secret from Illuvatar; He found out about the Dwarves and was angry with the Smith and ordered him to destroy his creation. The Smith really didn't mean to transgress against Illuvatar, he just wanted to leave a legacy of people like Gaia did. But he knew that he could not go against the Wishes of Illuvatar, so the Smith grabbed his forging hammerand went to destroy the Dwarves but began to cry as he stepped towards them. The Dwarves also began to show fear when their creator stepped towards them with the intent of destroying them. Illuvatar saw this and felt pity for the Dwarves, who were already living things. Illuvatar stopped the Smith and allowed the Dwarves to live with one stipulation: the Dwarves were to sleep in their caves until after the Race of Men awoke.

Illuvatar wished Men to be his "Second Theme" of His music, so Men were supposed to be the next race to appear after the Elves. (This is why Men are often called  the "Second-Born" by the Elves.) With the creation of the Ents and Dwarves, Illuvatar manadted that these two races were to stay hidden (The Ents in the forests and the Dwarves in their caves) until after Men awoke so that everything would remain in line with Illuvatar's plan to have Men known as the Second Born.

Hope that helps clear everything up.

[mikhael]

Only one correction. It is very clear in the early parts of the Silmarillion that Iluvatar intended Elves to merely prepare the world for Man. Thus, the Elves, and later the Ents and Dwarves, were meant to leave Arda after their jobs were done. If you'll recall, the elves did indeed leave for a time, but some were dissatisfied with life in Valinor and chose instead to return to Arda. Galadriel and Elrond, I believe, were among these.

[KillMeNow]

isn't it nice that this god was arranging things epecially for us =) do you feel privalidged hehe i do:D

[Su-tehp]

Originally posted by mikhael
Only one correction. It is very clear in the early parts of the Silmarillion that Iluvatar intended Elves to merely prepare the world for Man. Thus, the Elves, and later the Ents and Dwarves, were meant to leave Arda after their jobs were done. If you'll recall, the elves did indeed leave for a time, but some were dissatisfied with life in Valinor and chose instead to return to Arda. Galadriel and Elrond, I believe, were among these.

True enough, but there were some Elves that never left Middle Earth when the Teleri, the Noldor and the "third Tribe" (cripes, I forgot what they were called!) went to Valinor. When the Quendi (the Elves "old" word for themselves, it means " the Speakers") had just awoke, one of the Valar, the one known as "the Rider" (I think his name was something like Olorin, it definitely started with an "o") told the Elves about Valinor and said they could make a long Journey to Valinor if they wished to live among the Valar. Those Elves that decided to make the Journey and arrived at valinor became known as the "Elendi" or "the Elves of the Light" because they eventually managed to see the Light of the Two Trees of Valinor. The ones who refused to make the Journey because they did not wish to leave their homes in the East became known as the "Avari", the "Unwilling." The Eastern Elves never again figure prominently in Tolkein's stories.

It's more than hinted that many of the Avari were captured by Melkor and were tortured, corrupted and eventually tuned into the race of Orcs. I don't know if the remaining uncorrupted Avari were eventually brought to Valinor at the end of the Third Age.

Or perhaps these Elves are still in our world.

Anything's possible.