Author Topic: One Ring of Power  (Read 9626 times)

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Offline mikhael

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Quote
Originally posted by Su-tehp

It's more than hinted that many of the Avari were captured by Melkor and were tortured, corrupted and eventually tuned into the race of Orcs. I don't know if the remaining uncorrupted Avari were eventually brought to Valinor at the end of the Third Age.


Not turned into Orcs, but bred to monsters to give birth to the creatures that became orcs. This is much in line with Saruman's experiments which gave birth to the Uruk-hai.
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The types of Elves:

Eldar - Elves of the Great Journey. Split futher into:
    Vanyar - All went to Aman
    Noldor - All went to Aman
    Teleri - Some went to Aman, some stayed in Beleriand (Sindar - 'Grey Elves'), some left the main Teleri host east of the Misty Mountains (The Nandor, some of which became the Laiquendi or Green Elves of Ossiriand).

Calaquendi - 'Elves of the Light' Those of the Eldar who came to Aman in the time of the Two Trees.

Umanyar - Those Teleri who were 'not of Aman'.

Avari - 'The Unwilling' - those who refused the Great Journey.

Moriquendi - 'Elves of the Darkness' they never saw the Light of the Trees. Made up of the Avari and the Umanyar.

This is all before the Melkor destroyed the Two Trees.


Galadriel is hard to age because her 'Elf-type' changed a bit in Tolkiens work.

Those that left Aman did so because the Melkor. He attemped to split them from the Valar. After the destruction of the Trees and the theft of the Silmarils (some of?) the Teleri rebelled and left for Middle Earth where they battled Melkor for the Silmarils.

After Melkor was overthrown, the Elves were allowed to return to Aman. Some were banned or too proud to return and stayed in Middle Earth. I can't remember if Galadriel was banned or unwilling to return, but because of her actions against Sauron she was allowed return (or decided to) to Aman.

As for Sauron, he has a small part in the 'Two Towers' where Pipin looks into the Palantir.

I can't remember if this has been cleared up but: The Istari are of the Maiar, as was Sauron and the Balrogs. See 'Unfinished Tales'. They are also described as 'peers of Sauron'.

Apologies for the seemingly disprite points here.
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Offline Nico

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One question stays unanswered to me, then. If they're all Maiars, why would sorry be that much more powerfull, that he would be able to face all the Istaris and even survive when he was banished, when he was strippd of all his powers then ( since the ring had just been discovered by Bilbo then)?
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Offline Su-tehp

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Quote
Originally posted by Tar-Palantir
Those Elves that left Aman did so because of Melkor. He attemped to split them from the Valar. After the destruction of the Trees and the theft of the Silmarils (some of?) the Teleri rebelled and left for Middle Earth where they battled Melkor for the Silmarils.


Actually, it was the Noldor that rebelled. Melkor had been captured by the Valar and put in unbreakable chains and kept prisoner in Aman for a long time. Then Feanor (the greatest craftsman of the Noldor Elves) created three great jewels called the Simarils. What made the Simarils so special is that Feanor somehow managed to capture the Light of the Two Trees and imbued the Simarils with them. No one, not even the Valar, could figure out how Feanor did this.

When Melkor was finally freed from his imprisonment for repenting his bad behavior, he secretly plotted to steal the Simarils and destroy the Two Trees. Manwe (the leader of the Valar) believed that Melkor had truly repented, but Melkor tricked him. Once Melkor killed Finwe (the king of the Noldor and Feanor's father), he destroyed the Two Trees and stole the Simarils. Feanor, having lost his father and his greatest work of craftsmanship, whipped his people into a fighting frenzy to make war on Melkor, who had already fled to Middle Earth by this time. To get to Middle Earth, Feanot and his fellow Noldor needed the Teleri's ships to sail across the Western Sea to get back to Middle Earth. Feanor demanded that the Teleri hand over their ships to the Noldor. The Teleri, offended that the Noldor would be so arrogant to demand their ships without being compensated for them, refused. The Noldor then killed many of the Teleri and stole their ships. This was known as the Great Kinslaying, for it was the first time in history that Elf had killed Elf.

It was not to be the last.

Quote
Originally posted by Tar-Palantir
After Melkor was overthrown, the Elves were allowed to return to Aman. Some were banned or too proud to return and stayed in Middle Earth. I can't remember if Galadriel was banned or unwilling to return, but because of her actions against Sauron she was allowed return (or decided to) to Aman.


If I recall correctly, Galadriel refused to return to Aman because she had no desire to see her Noldor kin again because she was still ashamed of the Kinslaying. I think her mother was Teleri, but her father was Noldor.

Quote
Originally posted by Tar-Palantir

As for Sauron, he has a small part in the 'Two Towers' where Pipin looks into the Palantir.

I can't remember if this has been cleared up but: The Istari are of the Maiar, as was Sauron and the Balrogs. See 'Unfinished Tales'. They are also described as 'peers of Sauron'.

Apologies for the seemingly disprite points here.


Sauron and the Istari were all Maiar, but there is a reason the Istari were notably weaker than Sauron. The Istari were sent by the Valar to Middle Earth with a BIG stipulation: the Istari were forbidden to use any power greater than that which was already present in Middle earth. The Istari were also forbidden to reveal themselves as Maiar. It was their highest priority for the Istari to keep themselves disguised as men of great magic, rather than reveal themselves to the inhabitants of Middle earth as demi-gods. Basically, the Istari had to help Middle earth fight Sauron with one hand tied behind their backs.

Also, Sauron's spirit survived, but he couldn't reform his physical body without the One Ring. The Ring was the "last piece of the puzzle", so to speak, that Sauron needed to take control of Middle Earth again.
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Offline KillMeNow

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just curious why doesn't Iluvatar jsut whip the offending valars asses along with the offending maiar asses and set things up how he wanted them to be
ARGHHH

 

Offline Nico

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coz on Middle earth they're out of his control, Illuvatar stays where he belongs and never interfers directly with what happen on the planet. And to say the truth, I thoink he just got bored of the piece of rock and don't pay attention to it anymore.
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Offline mikhael

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Iluvatar allows His creations free will in their world, which is as it should be, KMN.


Pretty soon, Steak won't have to read the Silmarillion: we'll have told him the whole story. ;)
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Offline Setekh

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I'm still listening... :D

You guys are summarising it pretty well, IMHO... :nod:
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Offline Levyathan

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Quote
Originally posted by Su-tehp
(Arda is just another word for Middle Earth, FYI.)


No, it's not. Arda is the whole world, Middle-Earth is just a continent.

Quote
Originally posted by venom2506
coz on Middle earth they're out of his control, Illuvatar stays where he belongs and never interfers directly with what happen on the planet. And to say the truth, I thoink he just got bored of the piece of rock and don't pay attention to it anymore.


That's not true. Illuvatar did interfere directly in the world, once. When Ar-Pharazôn (the last king of Numenor) attacked Valinor (after humiliating Sauron on Middle-Earth), the Valar rejected their power, so Illuvatar killed Ar-Pharazôn and his whole army, destroyed Numenor and changed the shape of Arda. The world became round, and all the routes became curve.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2002, 06:22:33 pm by 155 »

 

Offline Nico

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Quote
Originally posted by Levyathan


No, it's not. Arda is the whole world, Middle-Earth is just a continent.



That's not true. Illuvatar did interfere directly in the world, once. When Ar-Pharazôn (the last king of Numenor) attacked Valinor (after humiliating Sauron on Middle-Earth), the Valar rejected their power, so Illuvatar killed Ar-Pharazôn and his whole army, destroyed Numenor and changed the shape of Arda. The world became round, and all the routes became curve.


yeah, true, I forgot that, and the Numenor realm are now the waste lands in the north of Middle Earth.
Bah, I read the Silmarillion only once, I could quote entire parts of the LOTR from memory, but I admit the Silmarillion is quite another story. It's like the unfinished tales, i should read all that again.
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Offline Su-tehp

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Quote
Originally posted by Su-tehp
](Arda is just another word for Middle Earth, FYI.)


Quote
Originally posted by Levyathan
No, it's not. Arda is the whole world, Middle-Earth is just a continent.


Yah, this is true, I meant to say that Middle Earth was PART OF Arda, so everything that happened in Middle Earth also happened in Arda; I should have been more clear when I said this.

Quote
Originally posted by mikhail
Pretty soon, Steak won't have to read the Silmarillion: we'll have told him the whole story. ;)


LOL! I need to read that story too. I only got through the first 30 pages the last time I tried to read it. Damn, reading the Simarillion is a goddammed chore! My god, it's even worse than Stephen Hawking's A Brief Time in History! Now that was a verbose book!
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Offline mikhael

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Quote
Originally posted by Su-tehp

LOL! I need to read that story too. I only got through the first 30 pages the last time I tried to read it. Damn, reading the Simarillion is a goddammed chore! My god, it's even worse than Stephen Hawking's A Brief Time in History! Now that was a verbose book!


Do you mean A Brief History of Time? I didn't find this tedious at all. I loved it. :) I've got Black Holes and Baby Universes by my bed right now.

I had the same problem you did with the Silmarillion. It reads like the Bible or a history text. It is very dry. I suggest trying it as an audiobook also, as it seems that it was meant for being spoken aloud (you'll know what I mean if you ever hear it).  I converted all 13cds to MP3. The quality is pretty good and its only 635mb for the whole thing. I cannot have been the only one to have done this.
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Offline KillMeNow

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the silmarillion is 138 cd's?????????????? holy c**p
ARGHHH

 

Offline mikhael

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Quote
Originally posted by KillMeNow
the silmarillion is 138 cd's?????????????? holy c**p


THIRTEEN. But that's not very large. I have a few audiobooks that go much much higher. I have one that goes to 26.
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Offline KillMeNow

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opps yeah 13 is what i ment - just i spilt water on my keyboard and now some keys like the 3 thats about the letter produces 38

anyway tahts alot of cd's
ARGHHH

 

Offline Su-tehp

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Quote
Originally posted by mikhael
Do you mean A Brief History of Time? I didn't find this tedious at all. I loved it. :) I've got Black Holes and Baby Universes by my bed right now.


mikhael, you are a braver man than I....

Yeah, I did mean A Brief History of Time. I screwed up the title because I didn't remember it correctly. My copy is at home in DC, but I'm in NY. When I tried to read it, I didn't find it tedious per se, but I could never get past the first chapter, even after four attempts. I have no idea why.

Quote
Originally posted by mikhael
I had the same problem you did with the Silmarillion. It reads like the Bible or a history text. It is very dry. I suggest trying it as an audiobook also, as it seems that it was meant for being spoken aloud (you'll know what I mean if you ever hear it).  I converted all 13cds to MP3. The quality is pretty good and its only 635mb for the whole thing. I cannot have been the only one to have done this.


So the Simarillion is available in CD format? COOL.... I think I'll get a copy as soon as I can.:D:D:D:D:D;7
« Last Edit: March 17, 2002, 10:21:28 pm by 387 »
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Offline Setekh

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Quote
Originally posted by mikhael
THIRTEEN. But that's not very large. I have a few audiobooks that go much much higher. I have one that goes to 26.


How much do these things cost? Where do you get them from? I'm interested. :)
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Offline Darkage

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Offline Styxx

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Quote
Originally posted by mikhael
The Ents did not exist in Middle Earth before the Valar came. The Ents were created by one of the first of the Valar to come to Arda. I cannot remember the Vala's name. I know it wasn't Manwe or Ulmo.

As I recall, the Creation of the Ents and the Elves are what inspired Manwe (was it Manwe? I can't recall) to create the Dwarves in secret.



Actually, it's the other way around. After the Dwarves were created, the Valar responsible for the forests (don't ask me any names) was afraid that they'd destroy her creations, because they would certainly need the wood and other materials from the forests for their creations, so she asked if she could make her own people to protect the forests - and the Ents were born. That's before the Elves had awoken, and the Dwarves were still sleeping too (Iluvatar only allowed them to live under the condition that they would only awake after the Elves had arrived) - so it's true to say that the Ents were the first people of Middle Earth, with the Exception of the Valar and Maiar (which were not from Middle Earth any way).

And the thing about the creation of the Dwarves is not that Iluvatar felt pity for them because they were afraid - they were only afraid because Iluvatar had allowed them to live laready, their free will (demonstrated by the fact that they wanted to live) was Iluvatar's gift, and proof of his approval of the new race. Nothing can live without the Undying Flame (or whatever it's called in english, I only know the name in portuguese), and only Iluvatar can give it.
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Offline Su-tehp

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Quote
Originally posted by Styxx
Nothing can live without the Undying Flame (or whatever it's called in english, I only know the name in portuguese), and only Iluvatar can give it.


Right, in English, it's called the "Flame Imperishable," so it's not that different from "Undying Flame." Very similar, in fact.
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--Su-tehp, while posting on the DatDB internal forum

"The meaning of life is that in the end you always get screwed."
--The Catch 42 Expression, The Lost Fleet: Beyond the Frontier: Steadfast