Author Topic: I've seen a lot of crazy people, but...  (Read 9216 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline TrashMan

  • T-tower Avenger. srsly.
  • 213
  • God-Emperor of your kind!
    • FLAMES OF WAR
I've seen a lot of crazy people, but...
..this one scares the s*** out of me. When someone comes of not only cold, but morally void - unable to comprehend what morals in essence are. Someone that thinks killing innocents is OK if it's for the greater good, and if it turned out to be wrong, one shouldn't regret it or feel remorse or guilt.

read:
http://dragonage.bioware.com/forums/viewtopic.html?topic=665216&forum=135&sp=75

From here till the end. Sylvius the Mad. At first I though he was joking, goading...but now I'm not so sure.

discuss.
Nobody dies as a virgin - the life ****s us all!

You're a wrongularity from which no right can escape!

 

Offline Dilmah G

  • Failed juggling
  • 211
  • Do try it.
Re: I've seen a lot of crazy people, but...
Well in whatever study he's undertaken, he's been brought into believing morals are inferior, and apparently he has a degree in 'this crap'. To me, he sounds like a 'up-himself bastard'. Where his logic is never wrong, because logic cannot be right or wrong. What he fails to see, is the reaction to the application of logic, is what is termed right or wrong.

 

Offline Herra Tohtori

  • The Academic
  • 211
  • Bad command or file name
Re: I've seen a lot of crazy people, but...
Well, technically his argumentation is valid. However, it obviously can't work in real world as such if you're not a sociopath...

The problem is two-fold: First, is logic and the available information enough to make a correct decision in any situation? Second, what should be used as criteria that separates "good" or "correct" decision from "bad" or "incorrect" decisions?

The first issue is the simpler one, and ties to the second one. But starting from the first one, let's take the old example where there's a loose train approaching a group of workers who apparently are not paying attention to their impending death. The train has impact sensors that trigger the auto-brakes when they hit a heavy enough object. You know you aren't heavy enough to trigger the sensors, but there's a hapless big-boned man standing on the platform next to you, and he is heavy enough to make the train brake and save the group of workers ahead.

You can either push the big guy in front of the train, killing him, or you can choose to do nothing and the train will squash the group of workers.


However, logic alone can not dictate the "correct" answer in cases like this, or any other where killing is hypothetically "necessary" for the greater good (personally I fail to see the point in that kind of greater good any way).

The problem with determining your actions with logic alone is that people are not inherently logically accurate beings, and the information we think is accurate may not be so. That means we should be aware that our "logically sound" decisions might not be the "correct" or "best" after events have unfolded, which means we shouldn't blindly do what seems to be logical either, especially in this kind of "the end justifies the means" situations. We can't know if seemingly logical action always leads to the best outcome.

Or rather, it should be taken into consideration when forming the logical response to something. The knowledge of the possible lack of information is information in itself. In the example, it is possible that even if you don't push the big guy under the train, the train will somehow be stopped by remote control or driver getting into controls. Or the group of workers might notice the threat and get away without you killing the big guy.

Or, it might be that the big guy fails to trigger the auto-brakes and the workers are still killed, but now there's an additional victim. Or, the big guy dies but workers would've noticed the threat and saved themselves, but the "logically sound" decision got the big guy killed...

The second issue about what kind of decision is correct is a more complex one.

In my opinion, morals and logic are not enough to go by. Morals are just the code of conduct in a particular community, and logic is not always applicable and with limited judgement capability and information can lead to really bad results. Laws and regulations are not always acceptable either but as long as they are legitimate, I prefer to sticking them but they aren't the highest authority that dictates my decisions.

To make decisions where you can live with the consequences is not possible with just logic and information alone. Or morals alone, or laws or regulations.

What you need in addition to laws, regulations, morals and logic is a set of ethically sound principles. Which is not the same thing as morals. Morality implies the commonly accepted "right" and "correct" behaviour, and can be really misleading - and they can be exploited and misused, even changed, by community authorities like political or religious leaders. Ethic principles, however, need to be thought through by each individual themselves, and are in my opinion the better choice between abiding to morals or ethics. Then you need to apply the ethics to the logic to see what kind of actions are acceptable - not by society, or laws, but by you.*

However, each person really needs to find their own ethical camp, two main ones being utilitarianism and Kantianism. I'm in the latter camp - in my opinion it wouldn't be acceptable to use  the Big Guy as means to saving the workers from the impending death by train, even if that action had a chance of affecting positively to the workers' fate. All the unknown factors mentioned earlier would lead to the same conclusion if I were an utilitarian thinker, but that's beside the point. Also, along with information, intuition and instinct are also sometimes needed.

Rationalizing all mistakes and decisions that had negative consequences by saying that they were the logically best option at the time is just bull****, since obviously the logic failed to take into account the fact that information might be flawed or lacking. Not feeling regret or remorse after making a wrong decision is not normal. People make mistakes all the time, and I don't think most people aim to behave illogically. There is some logic (aka motives) behind every decision made, and at the time they obviously seem like correct decisions. So is he saying that no one should feel bad about their mistakes? That makes no sense at all. Feeling bad about a mistake, no matter how correct the decision seemed at time, is how we learn not to repeat the decision in similar conditions. When you make a decision that has negative consequences, it is normal to wish you had chosen differently, or that you could have avoided being forced to make that decision. Especially in situations where the decision affects other people.

*Obviously there are people whose ethics don't work the same as mot people's do, and they need the laws and regulations to prevent them from causing harm to the society...
There are three things that last forever: Abort, Retry, Fail - and the greatest of these is Fail.

 

Offline Flipside

  • əp!sd!l£
  • 212
Re: I've seen a lot of crazy people, but...
If people drag him outside and lynch him, then he made a bad decision.

The first responsibility, is the one to take responsibility.

People think morals are a personal thing, but in reality, when they effect other people, they are a societal issue.

 

Offline terran_emperor

  • 7 Impossible Requests Before Breakfast
  • 210
  • Kane Live in Death
Re: I've seen a lot of crazy people, but...
Whilst the logic is correct and i can see where he's coming from...Hell, i agree in part with it - but morally i could never support it.

The logic is undeniably and there lies the problem - you can justify anything with logic, thats is strength, but also its greatest flaw
e = m csarged - Relativity according to Sarge [Red vs Blue]

TRUE SHIVAN

HLP's only Goro Naya (Great Leader) fan


"I really wasn't expecting this much losership"


"Only one thing is impossible for a Vorlon to understand: How to change the IRQ setting in any DOS computer."

HLP Brit

 

Offline iamzack

  • 26
Re: I've seen a lot of crazy people, but...
Morals require a lot of extra effort.
WE ARE HARD LIGHT PRODUCTIONS. YOU WILL LOWER YOUR FIREWALLS AND SURRENDER YOUR KEYBOARDS. WE WILL ADD YOUR INTELLECTUAL AND VERNACULAR DISTINCTIVENESS TO OUR OWN. YOUR FORUMS WILL ADAPT TO SERVICE US. RESISTANCE IS FUTILE.

 

Offline castor

  • 29
    • http://www.ffighters.co.uk./home/
Re: I've seen a lot of crazy people, but...
Someone that thinks killing innocents is OK if it's for the greater good, and if it turned out to be wrong, one shouldn't regret it or feel remorse or guilt.
That is not a question of morals or logic, its a question of compassion. The guy deliberately cut that part out, and now the others are reading more to his words than there actually is.

 

Offline General Battuta

  • Poe's Law In Action
  • 214
  • i wonder when my postcount will exceed my iq
Re: I've seen a lot of crazy people, but...
I've only skimmed his arguments, but most of his fundamental points are pretty sound.

And he is right that most morality is baseless and arbitrary...but still, in general, it's pretty useful.

His distrust of psychology is a bit absurd. He clearly doesn't know much about it.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2009, 01:05:15 pm by General Battuta »

 

Offline terran_emperor

  • 7 Impossible Requests Before Breakfast
  • 210
  • Kane Live in Death
Re: I've seen a lot of crazy people, but...
As I have said before and will say again here - morals are subjective there are as many variations as there are people. No two people's morals are ever exactly the same, not even twins.
e = m csarged - Relativity according to Sarge [Red vs Blue]

TRUE SHIVAN

HLP's only Goro Naya (Great Leader) fan


"I really wasn't expecting this much losership"


"Only one thing is impossible for a Vorlon to understand: How to change the IRQ setting in any DOS computer."

HLP Brit

 

Offline iamzack

  • 26
Re: I've seen a lot of crazy people, but...
It's pretty hard to define even your own morals when we all live in a perfectly amoral universe.
WE ARE HARD LIGHT PRODUCTIONS. YOU WILL LOWER YOUR FIREWALLS AND SURRENDER YOUR KEYBOARDS. WE WILL ADD YOUR INTELLECTUAL AND VERNACULAR DISTINCTIVENESS TO OUR OWN. YOUR FORUMS WILL ADAPT TO SERVICE US. RESISTANCE IS FUTILE.

 

Offline captain-custard

  • previously known as andicirk
  • 210
  • one sandwich short of a picnic
Re: I've seen a lot of crazy people, but...
moral

i prefer the french definition of this word



"Duct tape is like the force. It has a light side, a dark side, and it holds the universe together."

 

Offline Mika

  • 28
Re: I've seen a lot of crazy people, but...
I don't know, we used to have a group mentality that when there was some ****er who thought he was above the rest, the group pretty much returned him back to reality or sent him to a place where he wouldn't cause trouble. Basically giving him his own medicine. Not so much any more.

Mika
Relaxed movement is always more effective than forced movement.

 

Offline Ghostavo

  • 210
  • Let it be glue!
    • Skype
    • Steam
    • Twitter
Re: I've seen a lot of crazy people, but...
I can't see anything wrong with the mb1713's reply if that's the one being linked.

That said, it's a freaking discussion about morals on the freaking internet. Anyone getting offended by it should just turn off their browser.

P.S.
Nor can I see anything wrong with the following replies.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2009, 03:11:12 pm by Ghostavo »
"Closing the Box" - a campaign in the making :nervous:

Shrike is a dirty dirty admin, he's the destroyer of souls... oh god, let it be glue...

 

Offline Mongoose

  • Rikki-Tikki-Tavi
  • Global Moderator
  • 212
  • This brain for rent.
    • Steam
    • Something
Re: I've seen a lot of crazy people, but...
What amuses me the most is that even the fictional paragon of logic Spock figured out in the end that applying it absolutely wasn't always the best course of action.  You'd think most nerds out there would have seen the Star Trek films. :p

 

Offline redsniper

  • 211
  • Aim for the Top!
Re: I've seen a lot of crazy people, but...
Why did they add a subtitle to Dragon Age? Are they going to do episodic releases or something? In all these years they could only make the beginning of the game?
"Think about nice things not unhappy things.
The future makes happy, if you make it yourself.
No war; think about happy things."   -WouterSmitssm

Hard Light Productions:
"...this conversation is pointlessly confrontational."

 

Offline MP-Ryan

  • Makes General Discussion Make Sense.
  • Global Moderator
  • 210
  • Keyboard > Pen > Sword
Re: I've seen a lot of crazy people, but...
Morals are NOT arbitrary - morals are the biological imperative for survival as a social species ingrained within each individual.

On a purely "survival-of-the-fittest" model, sociopaths/psychopaths/ASPD individuals actually embody all the qualities necessary for an individual to survive... UNLESS everyone else is programmed to act in a way that is best for the group as a whole.  The group vs the individual is a unique social balance which is maintained in every social species.  Morality IS perfectly logical - social species would be unable to survive without it.

Humans may apply all kinds of logic, faith, and everything in between to try to explain what is "good" and what is "evil," but the ultimate form of those parameters actually comes from behavioural evolution and is actually a very difficult thing to break.  The only individuals exempt from that are those which psychology terms sociopaths/psychopaths - people which lack the biological program to make them play nice with others.  That said, most sociopaths/psychopaths actually LEARN morality in order to survive as a member of a social species; while they may not understand why the rules exist, they do come to understand them and find it necessary to follow them (at least in contexts in which it is necessary for their own survival).

While many psychologists seem to still cling to the fantasy that behaviour is learned, the truth is that the majority of behaviour is biological in nature - choice and thought have less of a role than most people realize.

As a side note, for any of you post-secondary students with the requisite classes, see if your institution offers a Behavioural Genetics course.  You won't regret taking it.
"In the beginning, the Universe was created.  This made a lot of people very angry and has widely been regarded as a bad move."  [Douglas Adams]

 

Offline General Battuta

  • Poe's Law In Action
  • 214
  • i wonder when my postcount will exceed my iq
Re: I've seen a lot of crazy people, but...
Whoa whoa whoa. As I had drilled into me throughout my various behavior genetics courses, the idea that morals are a product of evolution -- while reasonable -- is a hypothesis. EvoPsych is a very sketchy field at the moment, without much in the way of testable theory.

I agree that social evolution does occur. But we don't have the evidence to say that 'morals are genetic' or even that morality in its current state has evolved.

There are a number of subsidiary hypotheses which I would be much less hesitant to agree with. The existence of strong genetic components to social interaction, for instance, is clearcut -- but whether our current social structure is genetically determined is a whole different can of worms.

So don't go jumping too far ahead of science, MP-Ryan.

EDIT: Ooh, also. Even if morality has evolved -- which it probably has! -- that doesn't make it any less arbitrary. It's evolved because it's useful at keeping us alive. But in what way is staying alive good, and dying bad? Well, it's only that way because things that consider dying good don't last very long.

And then why can we say that lasting is good, and passing is bad? Only because we decided so.

So in the end it's pretty arbitrary anyway; at some point we just have to say 'living is good, dying is bad, and that's the way things are'.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2009, 01:05:52 am by General Battuta »

 

Offline TrashMan

  • T-tower Avenger. srsly.
  • 213
  • God-Emperor of your kind!
    • FLAMES OF WAR
Re: I've seen a lot of crazy people, but...
Why did they add a subtitle to Dragon Age? Are they going to do episodic releases or something? In all these years they could only make the beginning of the game?

no, it's called Dragon Age: Origins for 2 reasons:
1) It's the return to Bioware's Roots, a heroic fantasy like Baldurs Gate
2) Origin stories, that completely change the gameplay experience, depending on which you took. The whole world percieves you differently, you get your own starting chapter depending on it and a lot of quests and NPC's are dependent on Origins. There's a FAQ in Bioware's page where you can read more.



A bit back on topic:
I don't really care what people believe or think - they are entiteled to it. BUT; people that don't care about morals, don't understand them or think them silly - those are the people that can very easily end up doing great harm, if they are given any power. Heck, they can even do harm without any power. I'm pretty sure Hitler had a similar thought pattern. If anything, I'd keep people like this under survailance and away from any important positions.
Nobody dies as a virgin - the life ****s us all!

You're a wrongularity from which no right can escape!

 

Offline Ghostavo

  • 210
  • Let it be glue!
    • Skype
    • Steam
    • Twitter
Re: I've seen a lot of crazy people, but...
A bit back on topic:
I don't really care what people believe or think - they are entiteled to it. BUT; people that don't care about morals, don't understand them or think them silly - those are the people that can very easily end up doing great harm, if they are given any power. Heck, they can even do harm without any power. I'm pretty sure Hitler had a similar thought pattern. If anything, I'd keep people like this under survailance and away from any important positions.

I beg to differ, I think those who have morals (technically everyone has morals, but you know what I mean) are more dangerous than those without. People with morals tend to do things "because it's right" which can lead to some very disturbing things, while those "without" them tend to apply much more closely to game theory which ironically is what might have lead to the creation of those morals in the first place.

Hitler strikes me as a person with strong moral values, just not those that you and me consider "right". Of course I've got no evidence for that since I've never met the guy.
"Closing the Box" - a campaign in the making :nervous:

Shrike is a dirty dirty admin, he's the destroyer of souls... oh god, let it be glue...

 

Offline General Battuta

  • Poe's Law In Action
  • 214
  • i wonder when my postcount will exceed my iq
Re: I've seen a lot of crazy people, but...
A bit back on topic:
I don't really care what people believe or think - they are entiteled to it. BUT; people that don't care about morals, don't understand them or think them silly - those are the people that can very easily end up doing great harm, if they are given any power. Heck, they can even do harm without any power. I'm pretty sure Hitler had a similar thought pattern. If anything, I'd keep people like this under survailance and away from any important positions.

I beg to differ, I think those who have morals (technically everyone has morals, but you know what I mean) are more dangerous than those without. People with morals tend to do things "because it's right" which can lead to some very disturbing things, while those "without" them tend to apply much more closely to game theory which ironically is what might have lead to the creation of those morals in the first place.

Hitler strikes me as a person with strong moral values, just not those that you and me consider "right". Of course I've got no evidence for that since I've never met the guy.

Yeah, this.