[Herra Tohtori]

The fun part of god, though, and belief is that it doesn't matter if there is a god or not. Whether god is real or not, the belief in god still inspires people to do the silliest of things.

Yeah, in that sense God definitely is real to many people, but so are pink elephants and little green men, and three celestial dwarves. And Satan and all the other hairy tale characters.

The only difference is that when someone says they can communicate with invisible dwarves they are seen as lunatics, but when someone claims they are doing God's work or the like, far less people think the same. Which is immensely troubling to everyone who doesn't believe in God, and further more in same God as the one who claims is getting messages from above...

As long as I'm not a bigot and disrespectful though I don't see the big deal about believing in God.

 

Most people tend to think the same way. Hell, I think that way as well and I don't really have any faith in more than the existence of universe and even that is kinda on the level of "I observe something, so something must exist - whether that something is the same thing as I observe I can't really know..."

It's the vocal nutcase minorities that give every faction a bad reputation if the moderates let them gain positions of power. Zealots - both religious and atheist zealots - annoy me to the extreme.


Damn this discussion is proceeding fast...

[iamzack]

The best part of no god, though, is that humans are not special. Without some god creating us in his/her/its own image or for some purpose, we are just another animal on another planet in some dark corner of the universe.

What makes you think we are any more special than any other potential lifeform in the universe?
If God created us, then he also created Alien Joe from Zeta Reticuli.
Those aliens would be him children too....probably also created in His image (who's to say they are not?)

I don't believe humans are special. Most humans do, though. Humans are just yet another product of the natural universe. You know, evolution, etc. A human life is never worth more than the life of any other animal.

[jdjtcagle]

I really enjoy your post Herra Tohtori and I agree with it.

[karajorma]

What makes you think we are any more special than any other potential lifeform in the universe?
If God created us, then he also created Alien Joe from Zeta Reticuli.
Those aliens would be him children too....probably also created in His image (who's to say they are not?)

In which case either they are unfallen or  God is really, really bad at learning from his mistakes.

[Kosh]

The Christian's God's limits are those that he places on himself

Then either he's not omnipotent or is malevolent.

[iamzack]

Well, who's to say a god's judgement of what is good and evil is the same as ours? Perhaps god is omniscient and omnipotent, but has no morality. We can say he's evil, but we can say anything is evil.

[Mr. Vega]

But if you assume there is no god at all, then there really can't be good or evil. There has to be a judge in order for good and evil to be, you know, good and evil. The natural universe has no morality.

Honestly, why does the idea of good actions and bad actions have to be respected by the whole universe? To be a human that feels pain, and has the capacity of feeling empathy towards others, the belief that one should not do others ill is so...basic. That's why there are no sociopaths and mass murderers that have normal minds. Not because of societal pressures, but because the idea that pain and happiness exists in beings like themselves is such a basic axiom of existence that in order to ignore others feelings to such an absurd extent their minds have to become severely warped. They're warped not because they're misfits in society; but because they really are mad.

And any living entity; any living, conscious entity that desires to live can understand instantly why it is bad to remove another life. The universe may harm and kill without care, but the universe is an inanimate object, no more capable of feeling than a pebble. To be seen as something that can do good or evil, one must live, breathe, and think: and to do those things is to give up the ability to see life coldly and impartially. It doesn't matter what the **** god or the universe thinks about good or evil. It matters to us, and that's all that matters.

[Maniax]

It's the vocal nutcase minorities that give every faction a bad reputation if the moderates let them gain positions of power. Zealots - both religious and atheist zealots - annoy me to the extreme.

 

On the topic of morality, studies in developmental psychology have been showing that children develop an early sense of morality and correct social conduct without the direct influence of religion.  Furthermore, this is the case across many cultures, even those considered less "religious" than others, so it is not just a matter of religious ideas "seeping in" to the minds of children.  It appears that morality, including norms such as sharing, reciprocal behavior (acting towards others the way you'd have them towards you), and punishment for unjust acts, may be deeply rooted in our evolutionary cognitive heritage, and will emerge given the right social circumstances, without any prompting from religious sources. 

On a personal note, hurray for secular pantheism!    Nature is spiritually awe-inspiring enough for me, and we don't need to go to church to appreciate it.

[Mars]

But if you assume there is no god at all, then there really can't be good or evil. There has to be a judge in order for good and evil to be, you know, good and evil. The natural universe has no morality.

You're wrong. You live with people, and there are certain guidelines we all tend to see as right and wrong, barring truly crazy people. Some god telling people to do something wouldn't make "something" right, ("God is good" does not mean "good is God") people all have a preconception of good and evil quite separate from god, whether they know it or not.

[jdjtcagle]

The Christian's God's limits are those that he places on himself

Then either he's not omnipotent or is malevolent.

In my opinion that is trivial nonsense.  Can God make a burrito that's so hot not even He can stand it?  Hmmm... ponder that one.

In theory that seems correct, but the fact is I'm glad God gave us free will.  Now there is a fragile idea in itself.  But then there would be no point in creation at all.  To be zombies and prisoners to fate like many Calvinistic and naturalistic minded people believe (or should.)

 

[jdjtcagle]

On a personal note, hurray for secular pantheism!    Nature is spiritually awe-inspiring enough for me, and we don't need to go to church to appreciate it.

It really is wonderful.

[Galemp]

Existence is random. Has no pattern save what we imagine after staring at it for too long. No meaning save what we choose to impose. This rudderless world is not shaped by vague metaphysical forces.



It is not God who kills the children. Not fate that butchers them or destiny that feeds them to the dogs. It’s us. Only us.

[Mars]

Uh. Reality isn't random. I can see it, touch it, taste it and hear it. I can measure it. It doesn't change from one day to the next.

[S-99]

I'd say God doesn't prevent evil because he gave us free will.

Good things will happen to bad people just as much as bad things will happen to good people.
Also
Good things will happen to good people just as much as bad things will happen to bad people.

It's just natural, that's the way things are.

Talking about how God doesn't prevent bad things bores me. I'm surprised it doesn't bore other people of religion or atheism. It's the oldest argument in the book. It's tiring, old, overused, and dumb. I figure people who would be talking about deities wouldn't want to bring this up.

Why not talk about how God doesn't prevent good things? Oh, but people wont because that's not the norm.

Apart from the norms of the world and going with what the bible says. God created us with free will and dominion over this planet. He doesn't control us like drones with no consciousness forever repeating "praise be the lord almighty". Imagine if you did that (i guess the equivalent would be a ton of ipods that were stuck on repeat hooked up to a speaker system saying "praise be Galemp almighty), it'd be a very empty and pointless thing to do. God wanted to have fellowship, so he created man to have fellowship with Him. This is much more fulfilling and not pointless since you now have followers. But, since man has free will and God doesn't take away free will, many will choose not to follow him, many will choose to be evil, good, deluded, etc. Good things will happen to bad people, bad things will happen to good people.

Humans have an amazing capacity for formulating ideas and theories. The epicurus quote is an amazing critical analysis of God either way.

[NGTM-1R]

you got it all bass akwards, god is the satan

Yeah I'm bored too...

While Nuke is just being, well, Nuke, I'm not.

This is in fact a particular gnostic viewpoint. God is not good. However, I'm going to take it to its logical extreme.

This is something that studying Christian theology sort of forced upon me; I was a practicing Christian once. But when it comes down to it, God is apparently an out-and-out asshole. The doctrine of original sin and being cast out of the Garden is the story of God blaming the people who were, morally, least cuplable for what happened. God never really got better about that kind of thing. The ultimate proof of this awaits in the lake of fire, where souls burn in torment for eternity, regardless of their crimes or whether God even bothered to check He had gotten His word to them and they even had a chance. I don't care what your crimes were. Even murder and rape, for which I would happily revoke your membership in the human race. Eternal torture is simply not moral. No crime is worthy of being burned alive forever. A week, a month, a year, perhaps even a decade. But not forever.

So put simply God is evil. If He exists, then we have a moral duty to rebel against Him, to free ourselves from His control and to destroy Him that He may never harm another.

Yes, you read the correctly. I am advocating that if we can locate the bastard, we should blow God up. He deserves it.

Jesus of Nazareth, on the other hand, was a stand-up guy, and worthy of respect. He was someone worth following. But if the Son is, the Father is not.

[FSW]

Uh. Reality isn't random. I can see it, touch it, taste it and hear it. I can measure it. It doesn't change from one day to the next.

Rather, you haven't noticed it change. Maybe all the consistency that you have observed is coincidental. Maybe your memories of yesterday's rules are false.

[karajorma]

Apart from the norms of the world and going with what the bible says. God created us with free will and dominion over this planet. He doesn't control us like drones with no consciousness forever repeating "praise be the lord almighty". Imagine if you did that (i guess the equivalent would be a ton of ipods that were stuck on repeat hooked up to a speaker system saying "praise be Galemp almighty), it'd be a very empty and pointless thing to do. God wanted to have fellowship, so he created man to have fellowship with Him. This is much more fulfilling and not pointless since you now have followers.

Why is it that the biggest memebots are religious followers then? If God didn't want drones then why did he claim he would reward those who act the most like drones? If as you claim God wants fellowship then why would God want a bunch of yes men who constantly follow him around saying what a great person he is?

Maybe God wants yes men. Maybe he's such an egoist that life is simply a way of God picking out the biggest lick-arses to be with him. Frankly if that's the case it's hardly surprising Satan rebelled then is it. We've all known jerks like that in real life and they're not fun to be friends with and certainly even worse as the boss.

Or maybe it's that the test is not who has faith, but who chooses to ignore the bull****. If God wanted companions then the ones he'd want are not the ipods and lick-arses but the ones who actually pick out the good bits (Jesus talking about loving thy neighbour and being kind to everybody) and ignore the bad ones. God is painted as a kindly father much of the time. Surely every parent wants their child to be able to think for themselves rather than simply being a clone of themselves. I'd rather have kids who told me I was wrong than ones who simply parroted my ideals back to me because they'd never thought about them themselves.

If God does move in mysterious ways, if God does have an ineffable plan, why is it that religious people never seem to consider that the Bible/Koran/Torah must be taken as absolute truth? Why would God write down his entire plan in a book if he really wants companions with free will? That's like presenting potential friends with a friendship charter and promising to never speak to anyone again who doesn't follow it. What's especially amusing about that of course is that most religions assume that people following the other religions were simply tricked or fooled into following a false religion. The possibility that there is a God but that all the religions are deliberately false never seems to occur.

I'm not going to go as far as NGTM-1R in saying that you need to get rid of God. If you do believe that there is a God, simply be aware that he might not have been as straight with you about what he wanted as the book claims.

[castor]

So put simply God is evil. If He exists, then we have a moral duty to rebel against Him, to free ourselves from His control and to destroy Him that He may never harm another.

Hm, interesting..  but is God obliged to stop us from doing the stupid things we do?
If he is, then he is also obliged to take away our freedom, to foster us forever. For which we must hate him in any case, heh.

So, a "good" God is actually impossible as a concept. It can only choose from being either an ignorant god, a non-existent god, or a pain in the ass god.

[NGTM-1R]

Hm, interesting..  but is God obliged to stop us from doing the stupid things we do?
If he is, then he is also obliged to take away our freedom, to foster us forever. For which we must hate him in any case, heh.

Interestingly enough, that's totally irrevelant to my point. I'm not even going to bother addressing Epicurus. We're cutting direct to the eternal damnation issue.

[watsisname]

I don't believe humans are special. Most humans do, though. Humans are just yet another product of the natural universe. You know, evolution, etc. A human life is never worth more than the life of any other animal.

*watsisname agrees*