[Grizzly]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/7887540.stm

My least favorite politician Geert Wilders has been banned from visiting the UK, where he was planning to show his anti-quran movie 'Fitna', because his visit 'would threaten community harmony and therefore public security in the uk'.

As you may have noticed, Geert Wilders is one of those (xenophobic) anti-Islam types (He is specifcly not targeting the Muslims, he is targeting the Islam only. For a reason, since if he would do the former he could get prosecuted for racism). He believes that the only way to secure the Freedom of Speech is to ban the Islam and the Quran (so the only way to get freedom of speech is to... undo it.)

[Snail]

Man that guy is ugly.

[IPAndrews]

This made me ashamed to be British. The reason for turning this man away was concerns about public safety. Read: they were worried about Islamic fundamentalist lead riots. So they sent him home. Wilders is certainly extreme himelf in his views but by turning him away the government have simply chosen a preferred form of extremism (Islamic fundamentalism) and struck a blow against freedom of speech in the process. Double trouble. It also seems to me that as extreme as this man's views are it might have been a catalyst for some more moderate and considered debate on Islam and it's links with violence. Unfortunately someone's religious views are politically incorrect to question and so this debate continues to not happen, and will probably continue to not happen until it is forced upon us  by events. I would like to confess now my belief in the Celestial Teapot. Teapotism will eventually rule the world and all infidels will burn by my hand or that of the fiery tea spew of the Teapot. If you disagree you can get on a plane because here in the UK religious extremism trumps all. This man also has entertaining hair that I would have liked to have seen more of on the news.

[Kosh]

The reason for turning this man away was concerns about public safety. Read: they were worried about Islamic fundamentalist lead riots.

Honestly, that is really pathetic. Have we been so blinded by political correctness that we can't see those assholes for what they really are?

[iamzack]

ONOES SATANIST RELIGION ISLAM IS GAINING GROUND IN UK WE MUST BOMB

[Roanoke]

Not as if it were a public viewing of his film too.

[Grizzly]

The film has not really been publicly viewed, as it was only avaible on the internet (no dutch company wanted to broadcast the movie)

For those of you intrested:

http://wikileaks.org/leak/fitna-flash-video/index.html

[Mobius]

Those are old news, anyway.

Why don't them let that guy visit the UK? If his opinions are so bad then they shouldn't pose a threat and no one should care about him. The whole banning affair looks like an attempt to prevent this guy from spreading weird "philosophies", even if the British are (supposed to be) smart enough to ignore him...

[Kosh]

Those are old news, anyway.

Why don't them let that guy visit the UK? If his opinions are so bad then they shouldn't pose a threat and no one should care about him. The whole banning affair looks like an attempt to prevent this guy from spreading weird "philosophies", even if the British are (supposed to be) smart enough to ignore him...

This whole episode (combined with no dutch company wanting to touch his film) actually goes pretty far towards proving his point. It seems impossible to have an honest an open public discussion about Islam, especially its dark side because of harassment and death threats by, you guessed it, islamists.

We shouldn't forget that Islam in general (with some exceptions of course) is 6+ CENTURIES behind us, and clearly there is a significant number in Europe who want to drag it back to their 15th century utopia.

[IPAndrews]

ONOES SATANIST RELIGION ISLAM IS GAINING GROUND IN UK WE MUST BOMB

You are on the way to destruction.

[Dilmah G]

I can kinda see the reasoning behind him being barred from the country. If someone came to Aus as an anti-Sri Lankan SOB who wanted to screen a movie about all our bad points, I would gladly break a few Federal Laws in exchange for a few of his bones. So would many other Sri Lankans here. Allowing him in the country, while a wart on the face of Freedom of Speech, is probably neccessary for public safety.

[iamzack]

We shouldn't forget that Islam in general (with some exceptions of course) is 6+ CENTURIES behind us, and clearly there is a significant number in Europe who want to drag it back to their 15th century utopia.

:\ I don't see the relevance. Who is "us"? Christians? Because Christianity came a while after Judaism... And for a while there, the Arabs were waayy ahead of the West...

[Dilmah G]

We shouldn't forget that Islam in general (with some exceptions of course) is 6+ CENTURIES behind us, and clearly there is a significant number in Europe who want to drag it back to their 15th century utopia.

:\ I don't see the relevance. Who is "us"? Christians? Because Christianity came a while after Judaism... And for a while there, the Arabs were waayy ahead of the West...

Well their society is behind ours. Trying to bring democracy over their just doesn't work, they don't need/want it. That's how things have been going and no-one there seemed to have a problem. Until we (tried to) introduce it over there.

[iamzack]

We shouldn't forget that Islam in general (with some exceptions of course) is 6+ CENTURIES behind us, and clearly there is a significant number in Europe who want to drag it back to their 15th century utopia.

:\ I don't see the relevance. Who is "us"? Christians? Because Christianity came a while after Judaism... And for a while there, the Arabs were waayy ahead of the West...

Well their society is behind ours. Trying to bring democracy over their just doesn't work, they don't need/want it. That's how things have been going and no-one there seemed to have a problem.

Not wanting our easily-corrupted, barely-functioning system makes their society behind?

[Grizzly]

We shouldn't forget that Islam in general (with some exceptions of course) is 6+ CENTURIES behind us, and clearly there is a significant number in Europe who want to drag it back to their 15th century utopia.

:\ I don't see the relevance. Who is "us"? Christians? Because Christianity came a while after Judaism... And for a while there, the Arabs were waayy ahead of the West...

Indeed, and so was China. The problem in China was that the conservatives took over, so when Great Britian attacked China in the 19th century with warships with rapid-fire cannons, the chinese came with their impressive rapid-fire... crossbows (That's how they lost Hong Kong, for example). In the case of the 'islamitic empire' (It had a name, but I forgot) the same conservatism and a nice civil war put them waaay back, and as they had lived in peace for centuries, they did not develop very much before that happened (since they essentially didn't need to).

In turn, because we europeans kept killing each other, we kept researching new technologies to show off to others or to kill each other outright. That gave us the advantage that we have now.

Many oil countries have the potential to become just as powerfull as the west, which some of them have realized and are now utilizing all the money they have to gain a nice foothold. See also the take-over of American Micro Devices.

---

The arabian world is 'behind' on us because they did not have things like the beetles, the hippie movement, and the rise of feminism... Because the people in charge want to stay in charge, and keep a lid on those things.

I don't see 'new' things like democracy and such crop up in 'muslim' countries very soon. In our countries, revolts where needed. To start a revolt, the people need to be unhappy about something. Usually, that is because they are starving. Since giving to the poor is something islam conservatives actually do (as opposed to the christian conservatists before all those revolts and stuff), I don't see revolts happening soon, since life is pretty good.

[iamzack]

Homogenous culture. Well, except for the Sunni-Shi'ite thing.

[Roanoke]

I don't think democracy and an Islam based faith, or moderate shia law for that matter, are necessarily mutually exclusive.

I read recently they reckon the hard line goverment of Iran probably won't last more than 20/30 years as the revolution was is getting on for 30 years ago. Ofcourse, that's what they said back then and they're still at it now.

[MP-Ryan]

I don't see 'new' things like democracy and such crop up in 'muslim' countries very soon. In our countries, revolts where needed. To start a revolt, the people need to be unhappy about something. Usually, that is because they are starving. Since giving to the poor is something islam conservatives actually do (as opposed to the christian conservatists before all those revolts and stuff), I don't see revolts happening soon, since life is pretty good.

You missed an important point.  Grassroots revolutions like the ones that brought democracy into the Western tradition (take the French Revolution as the penultimate example) occurred because ordinary people, spurred by ideals, targeted the corrupt nobility as the source of their poor quality of life.

In radical Islamic countries, political and religious leaders use Western nations as a scapegoat to divert attentions.  Thus, we end up with extremist violence which is targeted at the West as the source of their misery, rather than the political/religious leadership of these nations.

Iran is an exception to this - the Iranian populace knows full well how bad their government is and is presently unequipped to force a change in government.  But it's coming.  However, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Jordan, Syria, the Gaza Strip, and Lebanon all fit the pattern I've outlined.

[vyper]

I can kinda see the reasoning behind him being barred from the country. If someone came to Aus as an anti-Sri Lankan SOB who wanted to screen a movie about all our bad points, I would gladly break a few Federal Laws in exchange for a few of his bones. So would many other Sri Lankans here. Allowing him in the country, while a wart on the face of Freedom of Speech, is probably neccessary for public safety.

And that makes you as bad as him, if not worse. Because while he's simply exercising his right to free speech, you're resorting to violence.

Honestly, we need to get over the whole "oh gawds people might be offended" bull****. This guy may have had a point, he may have been an idiot, but our government had no right to ban him just because he might offend people. That's the price of democracy.

[Kosh]

The arabian world is 'behind' on us because they did not have things like the beetles, the hippie movement, and the rise of feminism... Because the people in charge want to stay in charge, and keep a lid on those things.

They are behind us because their society hasn't changed at all in many centuries, and the price is to be forever backward. The fact is they live in a dark age, in many ways similar to our own dark age 600+ years ago, only much longer lasting. Their problems are much more deeply rooted than not having the Beetles. While this isn't politically correct, the truth is they don't belong in this century. It would be one thing if they tried to modernize themselves, but they don't, and in several cases wish to pull the developed and, to a lesser degree, the developing world back to their level. You can never reason with fanatics.

Let's look at what is happening to science in Pakistan because of the islamic fundies:

`Islamic Science' in Pakistan

If all these steps taken down the Hindutva road present but a preview, where does the road of full-blown fundamentalism take science and technology? To answer the question a brief look at mathematics and physics in Pakistan is sufficient. In an essay on ``Ideological Problems of Science in Pakistan,'' the Pakistani physicist Prof. Pervez Hoodbhoy (see Khan, 1985) presents a graphic picture of the collapse of attempts made in the 1960s and 1970s to build science in Pakistan. By the 1980s the Department of Physics at Quaid-i-Azam University, which a decade or two earlier was an active centre of research in theoretical physics, had lost its founder and a number of other scientists, who were dismissed or resigned. Mathematics, according to the author, has ceased to exist as a research discipline in Pakistan and a prize committee for young mathematicians was unable to find a single applicant with a record of original publications. An admissions test for entrance to graduate studies at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (U.S.A) was not cleared by a single student, most students falling significantly below the minimum required. In contrast, a decade ago several students would have made the grade. Chemistry and biology are perhaps somewhat better placed, but research is confined to one or two centres.

Serious scientists work heroically under overwhelming odds in such circumstances; good or outstanding scientific work done is despite the milieu. ``Islamic Science,'' whose proponents claim that the Koran contains all possible science, makes constant inroads into positions of power in educational and Research and Development institutions, and obscurantism has been elevated to a position of dignity. The author cites a number of examples of the non-science that is produced as a result. A senior scientist of the Pakistan Atomic Energy Commission, committed to `Islamic science,' argues that Koranic evidence supports the existence of jinns as fiery beings possessing unlimited energy, and that this energy can be used as fuel. Another author proposes that atomic charges are carved out of ``spiritual forces'' and ``not simply the blind electromagnetic forces that the materialists would make us believe.''

Prof. Hoodbhoy concludes: ``Indeed, the reaction against science as an instrument of reason, whether applied to social matters or even natural phenomena, appears to intensify with increasing technological dependence on the West ...However, one clear consequence has been the tremendous elevation in importance of the transnational corporation, the most important purveyor of modern technology. The import of technology makes possible the simultaneous coexistence of mediaevalism with the space age.'' The relevance of these words for India is too close for comfort.

Source