[Soul Reaver]

So, I played through Silent Threat: Reborn, and thought it was great, but oddly easy - after all, I hadn't played Freespace for some time.

And then I realized I was a moron and never changed the difficulty.  Which defaulted to Easy.  So I did the only logical thing: replay it on Hard difficulty.

Everything was good for most of the playthrought.  For a while I was stuck on Hellfire until I realized that using Disruptor missiles makes it MUCH easier.

But now I'm really, genuinely stuck.  I can't seem to finish 'The Return to Ross 128'.  That is to say, I can't seem to finish it with all the bonus objectives (ie, scan the Shivan Freighter, scan all the cargo, as well as scanning the two cruisers).  The first times I played I was massacred over and over, at which point I decided I didn't like the Loki I was flying.  I re-outfitted the entire squad with Hercs, and that went better, but I still ended up getting murdered eventually.  I tried giving just myself a Valkerie to give me more time to scan in - nope, murdered again.  I tried giving myself my favourite fighter, the Ulysses, and that didn't work much better than the Herc.

The way I've been trying to finish the mission is as follows:

1. All power to engines, approach the Shivan Freighter as fast as possible.  Have all wingmen form on my wing.
2. Scan freighter.  If I'm flying a herc (which is what I've had the most luck with so far), the other ships go hostile at this point.  Blow away the transport, order wingmen to engage enemy.
3. After first 3 lokis are dead, scan first cruiser
4. Go after the transports.  Order wingmen to assist in their destruction.  Cream all 3 of them.
5. Order wingmen to engage/cover me.  Scan cargo.
6. Scan last cruiser.

Except the whole plan falls apart at step 5 (or sometimes 6) because at this point there's suddenly Lokis everywhere, and they really seem to like ganging up on me.  I typically die in a second or two with 3 Lokis simultaneously attacking from behind.  My useless wingmen either twiddle their thumbs and fail to help me out (even if ordered to) or have bit space-dust already.  If I'm having a good day and have all my energy diverted to engines I might be able to dodge and avoid them for a while.  I never live long enough to scan that last cruiser, and even if I did, I'd end up with pretty much every Loki in the area on my tail with no way of outrunning or outfighting them.

I've tried doing this the 'covert ops' way - avoiding firing any shots, concentrating on scanning and dodging while my wingmen cover me - and I've tried to be gung-ho and fight (even to the point of trying to take out cruisers) but neither seems to be very successful.

So... what can I do?  I figure maybe there's a trick to this that I'm missing (like the Disruptor missiles in Hellfire), and I'm starting to get tired of getting blow up by Lokis.  Any advice?

[Narvi]

You have to blow up the transports?

All I did was scan everything and leave... 

[Soul Reaver]

Narvi: No, you don't have to destroy them - destroying them gives you more time to scan the cargo should you need it though, and prevents my fighter from getting caught in a crossfire of Lokis, transports and cruisers.

But it's sort of irrelevant: I tried destroying them and I tried leaving them alone, and I died both times.  When I left them alone I died a bit quicker since they were shooting at (the almost stationary, scanning) me too, but that was really the only difference it made.

What usually kills me is a wing of three Lokis attacking me simultaneously from behind while my wingmen zoom around uselessly or float through space as assorted body parts.  Turning around to fight them just ends with me being blow up from the front rather than from behind.

[FreeSpaceFreak]

Have you tried ordering your wingmen to cover you? C-3-8.

[Soul Reaver]

FreeSpaceFreak: Yeah, I have.  It doesn't help much though.  They're not fast enough to help me out when the Lokis come for me.  If a full wing of Lokis come to attack me, my wingmen never manage to kill even a single one of them before they either kill me or I'm forced to flee - in which case the rest of the battle just consists of me flying around and dodging while other things kill my wingmen... and then I get killed too.

The wingmen are so useless that it's almost as if I'm flying the mission solo.

[FreeSpaceFreak]

Hmm, yeah, true thing... Try moving all your gun energy to your shields (there's a control for that), and don't waste time blowing up the transports.

If that doesn't work, either pull down your difficulty level or drop the bonus objectives

[General Battuta]

This was one of the most frustrating missions for me on Normal.

[Soul Reaver]

FreespaceFreak: Yeah, I've tried that too.  Diverted all my gun energy to Engines and Shields.  Still got killed in no time flat.  So far I've managed all the bonus objectives (at least, that I could find) on Hard in fsport and up to this point in Silent Threat Reborn, so it would feel quite disheartening if I reduced the difficulty.

General Battuta: Oh god, and here I am trying to finish it on Hard.  Maybe this mission is just a little too tough in comparison to the others so far?  If it were up to me (which it's not, but still) and it's not a case of me missing some sort of trick, I'd tone this one down a bit for the next version...

Incidentally, does flying a Loki give me any kind of advantage?  I know that the enemy Lokis don't show up on radar now, which makes them a lot more of a challenge than they used to be in the original Silent Threat.  But as far as I could see, there wasn't any advantage to me flying a Loki - enemy AI behavour seemed unchanged and they still target (and hit) me fine, which is why I eventually gave up and changed the ships Alpha and Beta were using on the mission.

[Mongoose]

General Battuta: Oh god, and here I am trying to finish it on Hard.  Maybe this mission is just a little too tough in comparison to the others so far?  If it were up to me (which it's not, but still) and it's not a case of me missing some sort of trick, I'd tone this one down a bit for the next version...

Not that I'm trying to put any words into Goober's mouth, but as far as I understand things, most FREDders generally balance their missions/campaigns with respect to Easy and/or Medium difficulty, since those are the settings that most people tend to play at.  If this is the case, then playing at Hard or Insane difficulty becomes somewhat of a "play at your own risk" situation.  This mission may just not be all that beatable on such a high difficulty, not unless you fly an absolutely flawless mission.  I know I've been playing this game for several years now, and I still haven't had much of an urge to bump my difficulty up to Medium, much less Hard.

[General Battuta]

Retail FS2 has some absurd difficulty spikes on Insane (namely bomber missions or anything that requires you to get close to a capital ship with flak guns.) I should imagine ST:R probably has them as well. Feel no shame for turning it down to Medium for a mission or two.

[Goober5000]

So far I've managed all the bonus objectives (at least, that I could find) on Hard in fsport and up to this point in Silent Threat Reborn, so it would feel quite disheartening if I reduced the difficulty.

Heh heh.  Heheheheheheh.

You might as well drop down to Medium right now, or at least satisfy yourself with only one bonus objective.  If you're getting frustrated on this mission, you really won't like Chasing Shadows.

I have been able to complete every objective of every mission in ST:R on Medium.  However, I haven't tried the harder difficulties.

Incidentally, does flying a Loki give me any kind of advantage?  I know that the enemy Lokis don't show up on radar now, which makes them a lot more of a challenge than they used to be in the original Silent Threat.  But as far as I could see, there wasn't any advantage to me flying a Loki - enemy AI behavour seemed unchanged and they still target (and hit) me fine, which is why I eventually gave up and changed the ships Alpha and Beta were using on the mission.

Remember what Admiral Scott said when the Lokis were introduced?  "Pursuant to regulations, the Loki's on-board IFF transponder will emit an encrypted signal to allow targeting by designated friendly units."  The enemy Lokis aren't emitting this signal, which is why you can't target them.  However, you are -- and they're using it to target you.

Not that I'm trying to put any words into Goober's mouth, but as far as I understand things, most FREDders generally balance their missions/campaigns with respect to Easy and/or Medium difficulty, since those are the settings that most people tend to play at.  If this is the case, then playing at Hard or Insane difficulty becomes somewhat of a "play at your own risk" situation.

Exactly.  I balance all my missions for Medium, following the original Volition Watch review guidelines.

Also, most missions that people view as "tough" actually aren't -- unless you're trying to do everything.  Remember that even Bearbaiting only requires you to disable two beam cannons.  In Return to Ross 128, Chasing Shadows, and other "tough" missions, the minimum requirements aren't super difficult.

[Soul Reaver]

Goober5000: Hah, ok.  I'm going to give it another whirl or two (obviously NOT flying a Loki.  Maybe with just Ulysses, maybe my Wingmen will be faster at helping me out that way) but if I can't manage it I'll just have to drop down to Medium for this one.  It does make me feel rather defeated though, I have to say. 

I know I don't have to scan everything by the way.  But come on... you KNOW the objective is there, so why would you not try to complete it?  I mean, I used guns to kill that Typhon for the bonus objective in the original Silent Threat on Hard.  It's an OCD type thing.

General Battuta: I'll try to overcome my deep-seated sense of shame should that become necessary.

Mongoose: Seems like you were right.  But I'll tell you this: Hard is fun.  Well, mostly.

[Soul Reaver]

Whoa, I actually just did it.  That was... very tough.

Here's how it panned out...

I flew a Herc, the rest of my wings were flying Ulysses.  I outfitted everyone with Prometheus cannons and Fury missiles.  This is what happned:

1. Tell all fighters to form on my wing.  Divert all energy to engines, move in to scan Shivan Freighter before enemies turn hostile.
2. Equalize energy.  Start firing on transport pretty much the moment it goes hostile to take out its cannon and order all wingmen to engage the enemy.
3. Help wingmen out against the Lokis for a bit.  When it's sure they're winning, divert all weapon energy to shields and engines.  Scan first Cruiser, and then order all wingmen to IGNORE the Cruiser (I think this is important, otherwise they spend too much time distracted by it and fail to help me out).
4. Scan cargo and fire on transports with Wingmen's help.  Lots of furies and guns makes the transports go down fast, and even non-recharging weapon energy isn't a problem.  Two transports are destroyed, all cargo scanned.
5. Order wingmen to engage the enemy while I make a beeline for the last Cruiser.  Things get ugly here, but I'm fast enough (diverting energy to just engines or engine/shields as needed) to get there before my wingmen get obliterated.  Scan last cruiser.
6. Not wanting to get chased down by wings upon wings of much-faster-than-me Lokis, I engage the Subspace Drive right behind the Cruiser.  I take some hits but my Herc is tough like an old boot and I make it out just in time.

So... it CAN be done, but I don't even get a medal to show for it!  Damn you Goober!  I think I should get a 'Stubborn Moron' medal or something at least!

[Galemp]

Maybe we will in the next release.

Personally, I load out my wingmen with Flails and Leeches and order them all to cover me--that buys me some time. I have never met more than the primary objectives before chickening out and returning to base on Hard, though.

[Goober5000]

Whoa, I actually just did it.  That was... very tough.

Hey, cool!  Congratulations.

So... it CAN be done, but I don't even get a medal to show for it!  Damn you Goober!  I think I should get a 'Stubborn Moron' medal or something at least!

Heh.  That was actually on the suggestion list for FreeSpace 3, back when people were posting requests on the VBB.

Well, I can give you a gold star.  How about that?

[Mongoose]

Mongoose: Seems like you were right.  But I'll tell you this: Hard is fun.  Well, mostly.

Failing and restarting a mission fifty times in order to complete that final bonus objective seems like the exact opposite of "fun" to me...

...who did that very thing on several different missions of The Procyon Insurgency (and on Easy, no less).

[Soul Reaver]

Well, I can give you a gold star.  How about that?

Wow, awesome.  It looks great, thanks Goober.

Mongoose: Well yeah, the restarting 50 times isn't really that fun... but finally winning and screaming "YES!" is certainly a lot more satisfying, wouldn't you say?

[Renegade Paladin]

I turned down my difficulty to medium, and then I gave up and skipped it.  No matter what I tried, I always died shortly after scanning the cruisers.  The Loki swarm is ridiculous. 

[Androgeos Exeunt]

~ + I?

[Lucika]

You should make forum accomplishments for pictures. Seriously.