Author Topic: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)  (Read 35719 times)

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Offline Dilmah G

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Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
This all got *****y very quickly  :rolleyes:

Everyone calm down or your model will be boxed  :D


In other news,
check this out
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvLFV5o0iPM&feature=related

turns out Hitler was a BSG fan

hey, thats so full of mistakes... here in germen freeTV they have just left new cparica and we can't see the webisodes here!!! btw. this is not even a translation...

but funny yes, in a weird kind of humor.

My God those are funny

I've been lolling for about half an hour watching all of the videos about that scene

 

Offline odo2063

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Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
This all got *****y very quickly  :rolleyes:

Everyone calm down or your model will be boxed  :D


In other news,
check this out
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvLFV5o0iPM&feature=related

turns out Hitler was a BSG fan

hey, thats so full of mistakes... here in germen freeTV they have just left new cparica and we can't see the webisodes here!!! btw. this is not even a translation...

but funny yes, in a weird kind of humor.

My God those are funny

I've been lolling for about half an hour watching all of the videos about that scene

i think you never had to suffer for the sentence "It wasn't all bad under Hitler." in your history lessons in school.  ;)

 

Offline Dilmah G

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Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
You're right, although I disagree. I don't know if any amount of good could put right what he did.

 

Offline Snagger

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Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
I still feel a bit short-changed by the ending.  The last half hour dragged, and seemed to serve no purpose other than to heap more pain on the characters - Adama, Lee and Tyrol all ending up literally alone (why?), though Kara's end was reasonable.  I also don't buy the whole turning their backs on technology thing - they'd be using parts of the ships to create plumbing and electical supplies.  There is no way that nearly 30,000 people who have spent four years holed up in cargo containers to try and find a last hope of civilised shelter are going to suddenly don loin cloths on one man's say-so.  I didn't like the excessive religious tone of it, either.  Some advanced civilisation of beings, fine, but "gods" just pee me off - it seems like a cheap cop out.  I think they should have ended the show with shot Glactica passing the moon, with the African continent in the background, followed by the rest of the fleet arriving, and left it there, with no indication of whether it was in our past, present or future, with Kara's fate happening as the fleet arrived.

HT, I think your synopsis is a bit off the mark.  The disaster on Kobol was the start of the cycle, and was not a disease but the very first clash of humanity with its creation (the Pithean scrolls talked about one Lord of Kobol wanting to be elevated above the others - this is likely the humans use of their Cylons as the slaves they were created to be).  The war on Kobol led to a split, where the humans went one way and their Cylons the other (the Colonies and Earth, respectively), where events repeated themselves fairly simultaneously.  There is never any suggestion that it all started on our Earth.

As for the drawn out, bludgeoned ending, I think the strong inference is that humanity will do it again, that out quest for AI and robotica will once more cause our fall.  That certainly seems consistent with our habit of repeating the past mistakes, which is all the more reason I cringed at Tony Blair's lack of intelligence every time he'd comment that history is worthless and we should only look towards the future.  "Head-Six" is meant to be optimistic - the future is not set, afterall (nod to Terminator's "No Fate", I think) - but all the hallmarks for another cataclism are there.  It's a common SF stance, though, with more stories with robots having the robots fight their masters than serve them (Terminator, The Matrix, War Games and so on).

It is an issue in the real world, with more and more development for the military forces for AI robots to conduct operations.  It's good having unarmed drones to do reconnaisance or bomb-disposal/mine clearing tasks, but quite another thing to arm them.  AI can't necessarily differentiate between friendly and enemy targets and make correct split-second decisions, like deciding that the Afghan holding the Lee-Enfield .303 is a British supporter who's grandfather was honoured for fighting alongside British troops generations ago (see recent news events), or that a farmer holding a scythe or machete could be working the fields with it or attacking others.  It'll be a long time before AI could be smart enough to make these sorts of decisions based on understanding human mentality and the concept of context (aluded to in the "I Robot" film version). While these drone lack their own AI and under remote control from human operators, there is little problem, but if they get their own AI or are controlled remotely by an AI master computer, then there is a potential for thse stories to become portentious.  My brother is working on some pretty interesting UAV/UUV/USV projects for the Royal Navy, so though I don't get to know any project details, I do know robotic warfare is less than a generation away (arguably, the Predators have already introduced it in Iraq and Afghanistan).

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
I think the strong inference is that humanity will do it again,

I didn't see it that way. I saw it as them saying that it could happen again.
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Offline The E

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Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Exactly. Galactica has always been more about questions than answers, and I think the question is, will humanity be able to make the right decision now? I surely hope so. (I still welcome our robotic overlords)
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Offline Snagger

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Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
I think the strong inference is that humanity will do it again,

I didn't see it that way. I saw it as them saying that it could happen again.
Sorry, I meant to say would probably do it again, with only a slim possibility that we might escape such a fate.  It was not filmed as a certainly, but showing our robots and attempts at AI, together with the Baltar-like's comments leaves little hope for a future for mankind in thier show-reality, given our lack of ability to flee to other worlds and our inability to treat eachother as equals, let alone a creed of robots that we specifically create as slaves..

 

Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
HT, I think your synopsis is a bit off the mark.  The disaster on Kobol was the start of the cycle, and was not a disease but the very first clash of humanity with its creation (the Pithean scrolls talked about one Lord of Kobol wanting to be elevated above the others - this is likely the humans use of their Cylons as the slaves they were created to be).  The war on Kobol led to a split, where the humans went one way and their Cylons the other (the Colonies and Earth, respectively), where events repeated themselves fairly simultaneously.  There is never any suggestion that it all started on our Earth.


Well, I'm just attempting to put the events of the series in a (plausible) context with our known Earth history without someone implanting all the fossilized remains of humanity having evolved here, along with seeding the planet with humans.

Or, heck, from biological standpoint life on Earth is one continuum with very much in common, and from a molecular level it's almost impossible that such similar life would evolve elsewhere. Humans as a species can't really have been dumped here by the unknown entity (which doesn't like being called God), unless you want to assume two of quite annoying options to be true:

1. The whole evolution leading to human species was guided by the unknown entity in BSG, along with the machinations that led to the ragtag fleet discovering our Earth. This would mean that the unknown entity is older than life on Earth.

2. The whole history of evolution as we see it from fossilized remains is a fabrication implanted for us to find by the Flying Spaghetti Monster the unknown entity (so yeah, YEC... in a way) :P.

While in the series' context valid options, I'd rather try to somehow make sense out of the finale in the context of physical reality, leaving as little as possible to be explained by the noodly appendage.

So basically if we want to assume that the Colonials really found our Earth and assuming that the history of life and evolution as recorded from fossils is valid, then the conclusion is that the Earth that they found actually is the planet where humanity evolved. Extrapolating from this, and neutralizing the timetravel mess, my current hypothesis is as follows...

*ahem*

Terran life and consequently humans evolved in Earth. Somewhere around 10000 years before the events of the series, Kobolds encountered recently emerged humanoid species on a backwater planet (the one you're standing on). They took a small population with them for whatever purposes aliens abduct people for. Consequently, it's likely that they reverse-engineered human biology into synthetic species (aka skinjobs, or specifically the "final five" variety). About the society and culture on Kobol I have no idea; they could have incorporated humans into the society as peers, slaves or worker caste or anything in between. Conversely, same applies to skinjobs. We have no idea of the actual origins of the skinjobs, just an assumption that since they call themselves cylons (a name attached to the mechanical variety by their creators, Colonial humans).

4000 (?) years ago, something happened on Kobol that made continued life there unfeasible. Whatever happened, remains a mystery. A fullscale war with nuclear holocaust is unlikely, considering the state of Kobol's ecosystem just after four millennia, although possible depending on the scale of destruction. Whatever the reason, Kobolds (or Lords of Kobol or whatever you want to call them) ended up mostly extinct or otherwise absent, while the human population set for the Colonies and the synthetic copies of the humans set for 13th colony, to be named "Earth" in the Pythian scriptures. Considering a map was left to Kobol to point out the Pseudo-Earth's location for searchers, it is likely that the 13th tribe did not intend to be entirely cut off from the Colonies, but it is possible that some sort of schism developed between the skinjob and human populations that led to the decision to separate the "species" for the time being. Possible cause for this might be the disease encountered in the series (the one that targeted skinjobs and biological cylons in general), which would suggest to some kind of quarantene procedure.

So, 13th tribe went to "Earth", developed a culture, and destroyed themselves in about 2000 years (if I remember the numbers right), and 2000 years before the series' events they nuked themselves to death and the Final Five set for the Colonies in their... colony ship.

Meanwhile, the Colonials managed not to destroy themselves, before they developed the mechanical Cylons, entered into war with them and generally screwed up stuff, until the Final Five encountered the mechanical cylons, adopted the name, allied themselves with the chromejobs, signed and armistice and proceeded to create more synthetic humanoid cylons based on themselves and the mechanic cylons' research on the Hybrid, and gave the synthorganic cylons capacity to download, or resurrect.

However, Cavil betrayed the Five, killed the Daniel, killed the Five (nuked their memory) and sent them to the Colonies for some reason. At this point I would say the Unknown Entity (probably a surviving Kobold) interrupted the events by placing a failsafe mechanism of sorts on the sleeper Five (aka. All Along the Watchtower) that would trigger their cylon identity and later on probably open some of their old memories.

Events leading to Kara's resurrection and implanted knowledge of the original Earth's location was likely the second important act by the Unknown Entity. This eventually led to Kara being able to lead the ragtag fleet to the original Earth. After which she was beamed up. Or a leopard ate her.

Meanwhile on Earth... nothing really happened all this time. Humanity on Earth continued their hunter-gatherer routine. 5000-10000 years can be a pretty short time in a prehistoric pre-cultural setting in terms of change. The Colonial Human branch was little more than a footnote on the pages of history of humanity.


For the sake of abandoning time travel I'm going to ignore the obvious discrepancies in astronomy... for now. :p
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Offline Snagger

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Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
I just figured that whatever the "angels" civilisation are, they guided the RTF to a planet that happened already to have a compatible similar evolved race.  They're not the same, they're just close enough to be compatible, as is a current theory about the demise of the neaderthals - that they were bred out, not fought out or made extinct, but that their genes were recessive when mixed with homo-sapiens.  The possibility of two similar races developing entirely separately is not implausible, given the massiveness of space and the time scale available, and if these 'angels' are advanced enough to be able to be near omniscient and make apparitions including that of Kara and her Viper, then they're probably capable of knowing what life is devoloping where, knowing where to send the RTF.

As for the astronomical discrepancies, part of it is down to the CGI artists not expecting viewers to analyze the star fields in the fleet's background.  The constellation clues in the tomb of Athena were there to lead the RTF to the 13th Colony, and they matched (as verified by Gaeta).  I suspect that Earth was discovered at the mid season point in order to give us an ending if the writers' strike ended up killing the series dead there, so regardless of the outcome of the strike, the story would have a sense of closure, having reached Earth.  Once the strike ended and the studio confirmed the continuation of the other 10 episodes, I suspect they had to find a way of continuing the story and finding a hibital other planet, subsequently called Earth after colonisation.  It's a bit like when the studios tols MJS that he wouldn't be getting a 5th series of B5, so he wrapped it all up by the end of season 4.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2009, 01:07:17 pm by Snagger »

 

Offline Mobius

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Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Can someone please fix the topic's title...?
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Can someone please fix the topic's title...?

What's wrong with the topic title?

 

Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Episode number. It's either Episode 4.20 or 4.22 depending on whether you count Razor as two episodes or not.
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Offline Mobius

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Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
4.20 or 4.22...but surely not 421... :nervous:
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Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Cavil eating his gun: win.  Made the whole stupid CIC standoff/opera house worth it.
Ending about us possibly coexisting with AI: Good, and not too overdone.  Anything resembling a Cylon would have been way too much, and a serious bludgeon to the face.  This just had modern technology, so it can be related to, unlike a super-high-tech sentient Cylon.

Overall, I have to say they did an utterly brilliant job capping off the episode.  They couldn't have ended it on a much better note.  Diaspora has some really big shoes to fill.
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Offline Ace

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Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
It's a compromise :p
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Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
I was kind of hoping Cavil was going to buy it from the Centurions, would have been more poetic, but I have to admit, I did enjoy that, probably just as much.  He was vicious in the final 6 episodes.

 

Offline redsniper

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Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)

by yours truly...
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Offline Deckard

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Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)

Here's my interpretation of Colonial-Cylon history as it relates to the show.
...

Kara's Watchtower co-ordinates made the FTL drive into a time machine. Basically FTL drive would be a 4-dimensional vector manipulator instead of just three-dimensional, and in fact the reason why such apparently complex calculus is needed for preparing jumps is to keep the timeframe constant. The co-ordinates fed to Kara Thrace the Second (and the final Five at some point, they just didn't end up figuring it out entirely) ended up moving the fleet to Earth as it was 150000 years ago on this reality's timeframe (as it's depicted in the show) ...



Very briefly... Herra's interpretation especially rings the bell here at my end. During these last 5 years, I've been following several papers which amazingly reinforce predictions on backwards time travel; basically and quite briefly again.. by spinning around the accretion disk of a singularity and under certain very special conditions...

Nevertheless from my point of view, the trick to determine whether that planet is our Earth or not would certainly be its very unique and own satellite ( and if you want; African continent aside... )

Just my 2.5 cents

PS: And how not... MAGNIFICENT ending for our very beloved show !!! :)
« Last Edit: March 26, 2009, 04:39:44 pm by Deckard »
-------------------------------
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Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
I was kind of hoping Cavil was going to buy it from the Centurions, would have been more poetic, but I have to admit, I did enjoy that, probably just as much.  He was vicious in the final 6 episodes.

Galactica's Rapid Response Teams did not put up much of a resistance in the fight toward the CIC, they were overrunned by a shiny chrome toaster.
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Offline The E

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Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)

Here's my interpretation of Colonial-Cylon history as it relates to the show.
...

Kara's Watchtower co-ordinates made the FTL drive into a time machine. Basically FTL drive would be a 4-dimensional vector manipulator instead of just three-dimensional, and in fact the reason why such apparently complex calculus is needed for preparing jumps is to keep the timeframe constant. The co-ordinates fed to Kara Thrace the Second (and the final Five at some point, they just didn't end up figuring it out entirely) ended up moving the fleet to Earth as it was 150000 years ago on this reality's timeframe (as it's depicted in the show) ...



Very briefly... Herra's interpretation specially rings the bell here at my end. I've read several serious papers during these last 5 years which amazingly reinforced predictions on backwards time travel; basically and quite briefly again.. by spinning around the accretion disk of a singularity and under certain very special conditions...

Nevertheless from my point of view, the trick to determine whether that planet is our Earth or not would certainly be its very unique and own satellite ( and if you want; African continent aside... )

Just my 2.5 cents

PS: And how not... MAGNIFICIENT ending for our very beloved show !!! :)

The problem with that is that, while travelling backwards might be possible, travelling forwards isn't. Galactica needed to send a Raptor back to the RTF to tell them where Earth is, meaning that that Raptor would need to go forward to rendezvous with the fleet, and then backwards to Galactica again. If they were able to do time travel that accurately, they would have done it before.
If I'm just aching this can't go on
I came from chasing dreams to feel alone
There must be changes, miss to feel strong
I really need lifе to touch me
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