Author Topic: Total strength of GTA, PVE and GTVA  (Read 14720 times)

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Offline Ziame

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Re: Total strength of GTA, PVE and GTVA
For GTA I'd think something like 6 fleets:

4 Destroyers
every destroyer has 2 corvettes, every corvette 2 cruisers

That gives us

24 Destroyers
48 corvettes
96 cruisers
and helluva fighters


Actually, we could multiply it by two
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Offline Mobius

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Re: Total strength of GTA, PVE and GTVA
Uhm...

4-5 destroyers, 4-5 corvettes and about 6-8 cruisers is not a good estimate at all. Fleets probably have half the number of destroyers you wrote, about twice the number of corvettes and more than thrice the number of cruisers.

As you said, the NTF had at least 10 destroyers...but 20 is probably an exaggerate estimate.

 

Offline Blue Lion

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Re: Total strength of GTA, PVE and GTVA
Uhm...

4-5 destroyers, 4-5 corvettes and about 6-8 cruisers is not a good estimate at all. Fleets probably have half the number of destroyers you wrote, about twice the number of corvettes and more than thrice the number of cruisers.

As you said, the NTF had at least 10 destroyers...but 20 is probably an exaggerate estimate.


So we saw every single one?

In the entire 18 month span, destoyers either never were destroyed (oi!) or were replaced at exactly the same speed?


 

Offline Droid803

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Re: Total strength of GTA, PVE and GTVA
Hence he said 'AT LEAST' 10.
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Offline Blue Lion

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Re: Total strength of GTA, PVE and GTVA
But 20 is way out there?

So... 14? 15 if we're gonna be wild?

There are probably 60 destroyers (GTVA and NTF) in known space.

I think the fact that it's so easy to blow them up almost requires there be more than a dozen in the NTF

 

Offline Mobius

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Re: Total strength of GTA, PVE and GTVA
We can't post a random number greater than 10 and pretend it to be a believable one. 11-12 may be too low, 14-15 may work, 20 is probably a bit exaggerate...but none of this estimations is 100% reliable.

 

Offline Blue Lion

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Re: Total strength of GTA, PVE and GTVA
We can't post a random number greater than 10 and pretend it to be a believable one.

Anything above 10 is unbelievable?  Really?

Quote
11-12 may be too low, 14-15 may work, 20 is probably a bit exaggerate...but none of this estimations is 100% reliable.[/mobius]

Based on what reasoning? No one has said any numbers given are hard and fast.

How do you reach these number of corvettes and cruisers?

 

Offline Mobius

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Re: Total strength of GTA, PVE and GTVA
Anything above 10 is too generic. You wrote more specific numbers, like 14-15 and 20, which aren't believable. We don't know how many ships the NTF had because 1) the rebellion started 18 months before the beginning of FS2 and 2) we have no clue on the number of NTF destroyers that surrendered in Epsilon Pegasi(probably), Deneb(probably) and at the end of the rebellion(probably).

My question is: is it really necessary to discuss the number of ships with so poor canon info about the matter? We'll get to nowhere.

 

Offline Blue Lion

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Re: Total strength of GTA, PVE and GTVA
Anything above 10 is too generic. You wrote more specific numbers, like 14-15 and 20, which aren't believable. We don't know how many ships the NTF had because 1) the rebellion started 18 months before the beginning of FS2 and 2) we have no clue on the number of NTF destroyers that surrendered in Epsilon Pegasi(probably), Deneb(probably) and at the end of the rebellion(probably).

My question is: is it really necessary to discuss the number of ships with so poor canon info about the matter? We'll get to nowhere.


Yes, because general outlines help give general hints to other campaigns and concepts without nailing down pat 100% accurate numbers.

If people want to make campaigns or missions that are "believable" in the FS universe, it's a good idea.

If someone makes a campaign with 9000 destroyers, you'd call him a raving lunatic. There is nothing wrong with going "well what would be an appropriate number?"

Also, I find it kind of odd you've been discussing the numbers of ships "with so poor canon info" in this thread, so why stop now?
« Last Edit: March 26, 2009, 05:00:04 pm by Blue Lion »

 

Offline Mobius

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Re: Total strength of GTA, PVE and GTVA
Quite frankly, I don't understand how discussing the number of destroyers, corvettes and cruisers present in T-V space would affect the creation of a well planned campaign. As far as I'm concerned, no campaigns are supposed to feature ALL the ships the NTF or GTVA(or any other faction) had.

Campaigns are usually centered around a single destroyer and its attending ships as they fight their enemy. The number of ships a campaign creator should place depends on balance and plausibility more than anything else.

 

Offline Blue Lion

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Re: Total strength of GTA, PVE and GTVA
Quite frankly, I don't understand how discussing the number of destroyers, corvettes and cruisers present in T-V space would affect the creation of a well planned campaign. As far as I'm concerned, no campaigns are supposed to feature ALL the ships the NTF or GTVA(or any other faction) had.

So if I make a campaign with 80 destroyers per fleet during the NTF rebellion... cool? Cause I'm not gonna show all of them?

Quote
Campaigns are usually centered around a single destroyer and its attending ships as they fight their enemy. The number of ships a campaign creator should place depends on balance and plausibility more than anything else.

Plausibility... as if.... what would be a normal number of ships per fleet. Can't see why we would want to know that.

 

Offline Mobius

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Re: Total strength of GTA, PVE and GTVA
Everyone knows that 80 destroyers are too much...your examples are becoming quite silly, IMO.

What I mean is that a well planned campaign that doesn't exaggerate in terms of number can be developed without discussing the exact number of ships per fleet or per faction.

 

Offline Blue Lion

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Re: Total strength of GTA, PVE and GTVA
Everyone knows that 80 destroyers are too much...your examples are becoming quite silly, IMO.

So we can dismiss silly claims because they're not plausible, but a discussion into what those plausible numbers would be is... a waste of time?


Quote
What I mean is that a well planned campaign that doesn't exaggerate in terms of number can be developed without discussing the exact number of ships per fleet or per faction.

How can you exaggerate something that you say doesn't need a definition?


 

Offline Mobius

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Re: Total strength of GTA, PVE and GTVA
All we need is to make things work as they should. We all know that fleets with 80 destroyers are impossible.
Missions can be created without any apparent connection to the numbers you're looking for. There's a destroyer, cruiser or corvette involved in some mission and encounters some resistance. That's it, unless you want to turn Briefings and/or Command Briefings into fleet lists.

In the main FreeSpace campaigns there are no lists nor specific references to the number of assets each battle group/fleet had. Yet still, the missions worked fine. They're the most important thing.

 

Offline Blue Lion

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Re: Total strength of GTA, PVE and GTVA
All we need is to make things work as they should.

What?

Quote
We all know that fleets with 80 destroyers are impossible.

Why? What part is impossible?

Do you have canon evidence that says how many destroyers are in a fleet? Or do you have numbers saying how many destroyers exist?

Or do you mean it's not plausible? Great, so let's talk about what IS plausible?

Quote
Missions can be created without any apparent connection to the numbers you're looking for. There's a destroyer, cruiser or corvette involved in some mission and encounters some resistance. That's it, unless you want to turn Briefings and/or Command Briefings into fleet lists.

I'm making a campaign dealing with the NTF. To me, the number of ships in any fleet in systems is a fairly important idea. To me, the idea of how many ships would reasonably exist in a system's fleet is important to setting up reasonable numbers of battles, reinforcements, depots, things like that.

Quote
In the main FreeSpace campaigns there are no lists nor specific references to the number of assets each battle group/fleet had. Yet still, the missions worked fine. They're the most important thing.

So I can't put in large numbers of ships because it's impossible... but as long as I don't list where they come from it's cool cause that's what FS2 did?

If the only criteria is "the mission works" then I can put in any number I want, right?

 

Offline Androgeos Exeunt

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Re: Total strength of GTA, PVE and GTVA
Think about it this way:

At the start of the rebellion, the NTF had enough warships and fighters to slug it out with the GTVA. However, by The Sixth Wonder, the NTF has resorted to guerilla tactics because they lost many good ships. By Endgame, they only have the Grall, Alexandria and Iceni.

Blue Lion, try using common sense instead of attempting to figure out canon numbers. I assure you that the former will make you feel much more satisfied with your mod instead of trying to figure out canon and sticking to it (because I did that to the Lucifer in TSM-69). Use FS2 canon as a reference, but for the sake of Bosch, don't adhere rigidly to it. Since AG deals with the beginning of the NTF, you should give them enough warships to duel it out with the GTVA and either reach a stalemate or be victorious.
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Offline Blue Lion

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Re: Total strength of GTA, PVE and GTVA
Think about it this way:

At the start of the rebellion, the NTF had enough warships and fighters to slug it out with the GTVA. However, by The Sixth Wonder, the NTF has resorted to guerilla tactics because they lost many good ships. By Endgame, they only have the Grall, Alexandria and Iceni.

Blue Lion, try using common sense instead of attempting to figure out canon numbers. I assure you that the former will make you feel much more satisfied with your mod instead of trying to figure out canon and sticking to it (because I did that to the Lucifer in TSM-69). Use FS2 canon as a reference, but for the sake of Bosch, don't adhere rigidly to it. Since AG deals with the beginning of the NTF, you should give them enough warships to duel it out with the GTVA and either reach a stalemate or be victorious.

Canon is the only thing we have. It is the framework that we use to build upon.

There is a FreeSpace universe with facts and lots of holes. I think, and maybe others do, that discussing and perhaps coming to some sort of vague idea about what would be most logical in that universe is not a bad idea.

Would it be canon? no. Would it be required for all campaigns to follow? no.

I think this is a fantastically normal subject to discuss.


 

Offline eliex

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Re: Total strength of GTA, PVE and GTVA
Canon is the only thing we have. It is the framework that we use to build upon.

There is a FreeSpace universe with facts and lots of holes. I think, and maybe others do, that discussing and perhaps coming to some sort of vague idea about what would be most logical in that universe is not a bad idea.

Would it be canon? no. Would it be required for all campaigns to follow? no.

I think this is a fantastically normal subject to discuss.

The point is that the details of the initial beginning of the NTF is very much unclear so that one can only guess, accurate as it might be, about the actual numbers and events of the eventually confrontation between the NTF and GTVA forces sent to assist.
I agree with AE.

BTW, just adding to AE's post, in AG, there should be an equal number of GTVA and NTF warships since many GTVA battlegroups sent to reinforce the NTF controlled systems would defect outright making a GTVA victory unclear.

 

Offline Blue Lion

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Re: Total strength of GTA, PVE and GTVA
That's all we can ask for: educated guesses.

It's not amazingly hard.




 

Offline Killer Whale

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Re: Total strength of GTA, PVE and GTVA
There were 19 876 destroyers, for each destroyer there were an average of 39 corvettes and for each corvette there was an average of 128 cruisers. There were also 17 collosuses. Each destroyer had an average of 99 840 fighters and bombers.

17 colossus
19 876 destroyers
775 164 corvettes
99 220 992 cruisers
1 984 419 840 fighters and bombers.

It's true  :nod: I hypothetically made a campaign about it  :nod:.