[Vrets]

Goober's obvious religious fanaticism is the reason why he gets stuff done.

God: "Finish Silent Threat: Reborn!"
Goober: "You're not God, you're my beer!"
God: "Finish it NOW!"
Goober: "Okay."

[FreeSpaceFreak]

Take care, Vrets. Don't make fun of Goober

[Snagger]

I don't understand some peoples' need to believe in hocus-pocus, that all bad things are the work of a god or a devil, that some intangible, imaginary power will save them and that they will have life eternal in another form.  Why they can't accept that eveything we see in the unverse has a rational, scientific explanation, even if it outside of our explanation, at that the existence of deities and souls are nothing more than a cop-out of early science, and that their existence is far from certain, i don't know.  I find faith in god/gods to be a weakness, but not always a bad thing in people.

Religion, however, is intrisically evil.  It is the manipulation and perversion of individuals' faith for personal power and wealth.  It is racketeering on a global scale.  What is the difference between someone demanding money and your services under threat of breaking your legs to an organisation which demands money and obedience on threat of burning you for eternity?  What is the difference, except for the number of members, between any of the major religions and the nutcase cults like in Waco ot the Japanese sarin gassers?  How many senoir religious leaders, like Popes, ArchBishops or Ayatollahs, have told terrorists who kill in the name of their religion to stop?  The Pope certainly never criticised the IRA, just like the Mullahs in Iran, Syria, Pakistan and so on don't fault Al Quaeda.  How much help, in terms of financial aid, food or materiels have any of these religious organisations donated to the third world?  Their congreagations are encouraged to donate, whilst still giving to their religion as well, but the churches give nothing.  They are just businesses full of liars, hoods, murderers and child molesters.  Why anyone of sane mind and moderate intelligence would take life advice or moral councelling from a member of such corrupt institution based on ridiculous fairytales escapes me.

[castor]

Why they can't accept that eveything we see in the unverse has a rational, scientific explanation, even if it outside of our explanation, at that the existence of deities and souls are nothing more than a cop-out of early science, and that their existence is far from certain, i don't know.

Why should they accept it? Maybe it is an expression of personal freedom, testing the limits of it.

[Goober5000]

Poor fool.

NO U

Considering that's about the level of your original response's intelligence, is this irony, or simply doing the character well?

"Poor fool" is merely your opinion, and a personal attack at that.  So I gave your post the response it deserved.

I don't understand some peoples' need to believe in hocus-pocus

The belief in magic or superstition is significantly different from the belief in God or gods.

Religion, however, is intrisically evil.  It is the manipulation and perversion of individuals' faith for personal power and wealth.

No, religion itself is intrinsically good.  It is the manipulation and perversion of it by evil individuals that is evil.

[Scotty]

Religion, however, is intrisically evil.

*facepalm*

[TrashMan]

I don't understand some peoples' need to believe in hocus-pocus, that all bad things are the work of a god or a devil, that some intangible, imaginary power will save them and that they will have life eternal in another form.  Why they can't accept that eveything we see in the unverse has a rational, scientific explanation, even if it outside of our explanation, at that the existence of deities and souls are nothing more than a cop-out of early science, and that their existence is far from certain, i don't know.  I find faith in god/gods to be a weakness, but not always a bad thing in people.

Religion, however, is intrisically evil.  It is the manipulation and perversion of individuals' faith for personal power and wealth.  It is racketeering on a global scale.  What is the difference between someone demanding money and your services under threat of breaking your legs to an organisation which demands money and obedience on threat of burning you for eternity?  What is the difference, except for the number of members, between any of the major religions and the nutcase cults like in Waco ot the Japanese sarin gassers?  How many senoir religious leaders, like Popes, ArchBishops or Ayatollahs, have told terrorists who kill in the name of their religion to stop?  The Pope certainly never criticised the IRA, just like the Mullahs in Iran, Syria, Pakistan and so on don't fault Al Quaeda.  How much help, in terms of financial aid, food or materiels have any of these religious organisations donated to the third world?  Their congreagations are encouraged to donate, whilst still giving to their religion as well, but the churches give nothing.  They are just businesses full of liars, hoods, murderers and child molesters.  Why anyone of sane mind and moderate intelligence would take life advice or moral councelling from a member of such corrupt institution based on ridiculous fairytales escapes me.

Ooo...so tempting to answer this with a fiery inferno that would leave your grandchildrens children burnt and aching...

there's no hocus-pocus there. Myself I came to the conclusion there is a good in a perfectly rational way.

Religion is no more evil that lack of religion. I can cite past crimes of great atheists and their worldview. You can argue that atheists don't have a unified worldview, but in most cases neither have the religious people.
So I suggest you leave this train of thought, or at least thins method of posting before this turns into a flame war. You will get burned.

[Goober5000]

TrashMan, be advised your track record isn't terribly stellar on these types of threads...

[Flipside]

Well, I think an attack on either point of view is pretty poor to be honest.

I can't really say I'm an Atheist, but then, I'm not religious, I'm perfectly happy with Evolution and with the Old-Earth theories etc, but I don't really think those make you an Atheist at all, they just mean you don't believe what is written in a particular book, which, when you get down to it, is very little to do with religion.

Religion is about Faith, it's about believing that Self does not end with the death of the body. Yes, Christians may believe I'm going to Hell because I don't subscribe to their particular description of the 'truth', but, as long as they don't bother me about the fact, that's fine by me.

Same with 'fundamental' Atheists, if they want to believe in oblivion, that's fine, but I won't try to force them to change their beliefs as long as they don't try to force me to change mine

Edit: Though, in all fairness, I have smirked at some of the Young-Earth YouTube vids, so I'm not entirely innocent

[NGTM-1R]

"Poor fool" is merely your opinion, and a personal attack at that.  So I gave your post the response it deserved.

Which is exactly what I was doing, since your post was not even opinion; it was purely personal attack.

[Rhymes]

NGTM-1R

Advice:  It is generally a bad idea to get into a fight with an admin.  They might respond with, you know, something like monkeying or banning.  Just so you know.

[colecampbell666]

The main thing people forget in their arguments about religion, communism, and a host of other controversial topics, is the fact that we are only human (i.e. flawed), and our arguments and ideas are only human as well. Sure, religion could be good in theory, and when many people subscribe to a certain doctrine, they subscribe to it with good intentions. The problem is the human aspect, we are a bunch of greedy buggers, back from when food was a problem and it was survival of the fittest. Every human seeks leverage (money, or food in the old days) over everyone else, and instinct tells them to keep going even when the interest on the money alone is more than ten people make in a year. This is the fundamental weak point of religion, or at least certain religions such as Christianity and Islam, as the priests and bishops seek more and more power, simply because it's power and they're hoarding for that rainy day that instinct tells them is coming. They start to twist the meanings and fundamental values of a religion so as to increase their hold over the people, sometimes without even thinking it over, it's the instinctive messages telling them to keep hoarding. These changes occur so gradually in most cases that no one notices them.

The idea of god is also inherently human, statistically speaking, a lot of Christians fear the unknown (or at least in the past they did) and this is why they believe in god. They gave god human characteristics such as empathy so that "he" would not be alien to them, and they have slowly written this view into the history books. I'm not saying that there isn't a god, but I'm saying that if there is one he's probably above the petty emotions and quarrels of the human race, and he certainly isn't going to come at the every beckon and call of a little man dressed up in robes.

If you look at Christianity, it's made up mostly by recycled religious doctrine from older religions such as Paganism and others. This is not a coincidence. Jesus (who may or may not have been the son of god) wrote down his teachings which were then promptly whisked away on or before his death and put into some store room. Hundreds of years later the crumbling Roman Empire needed a propaganda tool to reunite its scattered citizens, so they took Jesus' writings, mixed in a bit of **** to make it more submission-inspiring and applicable to their cause, and spewed it back out. We haven't gotten over the ****storm yet.

NGTM-1R

Advice:  It is generally a bad idea to get into a fight with an admin.  They might respond with, you know, something like monkeying or banning.  Just so you know.

Yeah, but that's a really below-the-belt move, and isn't really warranted unless it violates forum policy. Doing it out of spite is a dick move, and really childish.

[Polpolion]

The main thing people forget in their arguments about religion, communism, and a host of other controversial topics, is the fact that we are only human (i.e. flawed), and our arguments and ideas are only human as well. Sure, religion could be good in theory, and when many people subscribe to a certain doctrine, they subscribe to it with good intentions. The problem is the human aspect, we are a bunch of greedy buggers, back from when food was a problem and it was survival of the fittest. Every human seeks leverage (money, or food in the old days) over everyone else, and instinct tells them to keep going even when the interest on the money alone is more than ten people make in a year. This is the fundamental weak point of religion, or at least certain religions such as Christianity and Islam, as the priests and bishops seek more and more power, simply because it's power and they're hoarding for that rainy day that instinct tells them is coming. They start to twist the meanings and fundamental values of a religion so as to increase their hold over the people, sometimes without even thinking it over, it's the instinctive messages telling them to keep hoarding. These changes occur so gradually in most cases that no one notices them.

The idea of god is also inherently human, statistically speaking, a lot of Christians fear the unknown (or at least in the past they did) and this is why they believe in god. They gave god human characteristics such as empathy so that "he" would not be alien to them, and they have slowly written this view into the history books. I'm not saying that there isn't a god, but I'm saying that if there is one he's probably above the petty emotions and quarrels of the human race, and he certainly isn't going to come at the every beckon and call of a little man dressed up in robes.

If you look at Christianity, it's made up mostly by recycled religious doctrine from older religions such as Paganism and others. This is not a coincidence. Jesus (who may or may not have been the son of god) wrote down his teachings which were then promptly whisked away on or before his death and put into some store room. Hundreds of years later the crumbling Roman Empire needed a propaganda tool to reunite its scattered citizens, so they took Jesus' writings, mixed in a bit of **** to make it more submission-inspiring and applicable to their cause, and spewed it back out. We haven't gotten over the ****storm yet.

Your point is moot. The existence of god is independent of what humans think about him. We can't even begin to attempt to prove whether he exists or not until we get a coherent definition of god.

[Goober5000]

Which is exactly what I was doing, since your post was not even opinion; it was purely personal attack.

On the contrary, the text of my post was purely opinion, with no personal attack on anybody.  Nor can the attached comics be construed as personal attacks; they are mocking the particular flavor of atheist advocacy used by Dawkins, Dennett, Harris, and Hitchens, as opposed to mocking the atheists themselves.

Advice:  It is generally a bad idea to get into a fight with an admin.  They might respond with, you know, something like monkeying or banning.  Just so you know.

I'm not going to impose admin-type measures for the purpose of winning a debate.  It's petty, not to mention lacking in integrity for a person in a position of authority.

The main thing people forget in their arguments about religion, communism, and a host of other controversial topics, is the fact that we are only human (i.e. flawed), and our arguments and ideas are only human as well.

In the case of religion (or at least the Big Three religions), this is incorrect.  Christianity and Judaism are defined by God, not by humans.  Islam similarly is defined by the angel Gabriel, not by humans.

The idea of god is also inherently human, statistically speaking, a lot of Christians fear the unknown (or at least in the past they did) and this is why they believe in god.

Can you provide these statistics of which you speak?

If you look at Christianity, it's made up mostly by recycled religious doctrine from older religions such as Paganism and others.

Which doctrines would you say are recycled?

Jesus (who may or may not have been the son of god) wrote down his teachings which were then promptly whisked away on or before his death and put into some store room. Hundreds of years later the crumbling Roman Empire needed a propaganda tool to reunite its scattered citizens, so they took Jesus' writings, mixed in a bit of **** to make it more submission-inspiring and applicable to their cause, and spewed it back out. We haven't gotten over the ****storm yet.

1) Jesus didn't write down his teachings; the apostles did.

2) The very earliest Christian manuscripts, dating from less than 50 years after the lives of the apostles, are almost perfectly in accord with manuscripts dating from hundreds or thousands of years later.  That casts doubt on the theory that the Romans, or anybody else, rewrote them later on.

[Ransom]

oh my god what happened to this thread what are you doing

colecampbell you have brought ruin on us all

[Black Wolf]

Wow. That's actually... disappointing really Goober. Those pics are Charismatic-level debating. "There is no god because I'm an asshole"? Really? You sat down and thought "Yes, these are the kinds of pictures I should post.", then typed your post, presumably at least glanced at it, posted it, again I'm assuming you looked at it, and after all that still thought "This was a good idea!"?

That's really a bit of a step down for you in my mind. You were one of the few religious people on the board I didn't think of as a bit of a nutter. It's a disappointment to see I was wrong on that. Oh well.

Only other thing I saw that I wanted to comment on was the whole "Things from 50 years are the same as things from hundreds of years later" thingo. Isn't it pretty much historical fact that dozens of christian religious writings were left out of the official bible precisely because they contradicted each other or the official positions of the church (as defined by the early councils (Nicaea, Constantinople etc., which were convend by Constantine, who, again as historical fact, we know was far from a committed christian and probably worshipped the Sun, if anything?))

[TrashMan]

TrashMan, be advised your track record isn't terribly stellar on these types of threads...

In who's eyes?
I consider my track record quite satisfactory. If someone else thinks otherwise I don't really care.

Wow. That's actually... disappointing really Goober. Those pics are Charismatic-level debating. "There is no god because I'm an asshole"? Really? You sat down and thought "Yes, these are the kinds of pictures I should post.", then typed your post, presumably at least glanced at it, posted it, again I'm assuming you looked at it, and after all that still thought "This was a good idea!"?

That's really a bit of a step down for you in my mind. You were one of the few religious people on the board I didn't think of as a bit of a nutter. It's a disappointment to see I was wrong on that. Oh well.

I can tell you that religious people are usually picked upon on the internet, epsecially christians, so sometimes are reaction can be diproportianoate. All that pent-up frustration ya see...
on all the fourms I 've been so far, atheists haven't been shy to bombard religious folk with similar imagery.

So don't read too much into this.

[Flipside]

Y'See and that's the problem, that's why you manage to get yourself monkeyed from time to time, because you forget that purpose of life is not to be 'right at any cost', because that'll karma the living daylights out of you when you are older, trust me on this

[General Battuta]

Goob's pics were decently funny-like. And sufficiently tongue-in-cheek. Poking fun at stereotypes probably won't hurt anybody, especially since Goob is so generally decent about the topic.

[Flipside]

Goobs pics don't really bother me, I've seen similar about Creationists etc, so fair's fair and all that, but the problem is that everyone assumes that whoever doesn't agree with their point of view is automatically 'the enemy' in some way.

At least, in the case of religion, there is a defence that the Bible etc all tell people to convert unbelievers, but that, I think, is the crux of the matter, the Bible doesn't stop to care about what anyone wants except for those who take it at face value, like most religious texts, it is a singularly selfish document, 'Join our club or burn forever in hell.'

Maybe I'm too analytical, but that just reeks of really bad psychology more than anything else to me, it's no different to holding a sword to someones' throat and saying 'Join us or we'll kill you', except that most religions use a 'death' that goes on forever, just for added weight.