[Flipside]

Yes, the choice should be available, accidents, and crimes, happen and Abortion should be a decision that is made by the parents, no-one else.

Ehhh... "abortion is being used as contraception!" is a bad argument, I think.

If you think of it like a form of contraception, it's like "well, I could use a $3 condom or get a $300 abortion. hmmmmm."

Well, I'm not confining things to the US to be honest, and the real problem is that, as you yourself said, sometimes getting a hold of contraceptives can be difficult, so people decide to 'risk it'. That's why the UK has to be very careful about Abortions, because they are funded by the NHS, but the US still has, iirc, one of the highest abortion counts per 1000 in the world, 1.3 million in 2000. That's a pretty high number really, and I'm sure it could be bought down with better sex-ed and more freely available contraception.

[General Battuta]

Holy crap! 1.3 million abortions per 1000 people?

Damn!

[Blue Lion]

 

[Flipside]

Holy crap! 1.3 million abortions per 1000 people?

Damn!

1.3 million in total, couldn't find the per 1000 listing.

http://www.abortiontv.com/Misc/AbortionStatistics.htm#United%20States%C2%A0%C2%A0%C2%A0%C2%A0%C2%A0%C2%A0%C2%A0

    *  The overwhelming majority of all abortions, (95%), are done as a means of birth control.
    * Only 1% are performed because of rape or incest;
    * 1% because of fetal abnormalities;
    * 3% due to the mother's health problems.

Source: Central Illinois Right To Life

[Scotty]

As much as I agree with you, we need to see some figures, as well as for more than just Illinois (am I reading that right?).

EDIT:  Yay!  I'm an idiot.

[Flipside]

That's for the entire United states up to 2004, courtesy of some group who don't know how to write a website so the title is visible in Firefox...

Edit: Heh, don't worry, I had to check to make sure

[General Battuta]

Given 500 women per 1000 people, that's 2600 abortions per woman every year...a bit more than seven abortions every day!

Man, that's a lot of abortions  

And those stats don't mean abortion is being used as a contraceptive (though even if it was, that's just evidence of the need for better education on contraception.)

[iamzack]

I have a feeling "as a form of birth control" applies to people whose contraceptive method failed for some reason.

Also, the 1% due to rape or incest is typically not adjusted for unreported instances. Very few rapes are reported.

[TrashMan]

So if you got pregnant, TrashMan, you'd carry it to term?

Yes. I'd do a lot worse things without ever looking back.

That's the problem with the way the culture is going today..it's all "MY rights" , "My decisions"...ME ME ME.. Egoistical and self centered culture.



If you really don't want a baby, and are not ready or prepared for the eventuality that it could happen, then don't have sex. It's not impossible, quite a lot of people manage to do it. If all else fails, use a vibrator. But yea....that's a harder path. Why would we ever take that path, hmmm?

[iamzack]

Because that path sucks. Sex is way better than any damned vibrator.

It's not like I don't drive a car because I might kill somebody.

[Flipside]

Well, once again, statistics are what statistics do, no doubt those figures are inaccurate to a certain degree, and, I said before, accidents happen, but, let's face it, even if it were 50%, roughly 650,000 abortions from split condoms? Still seem a bit high to me, even erring on the side of caution.

[karajorma]

It's not like I don't drive a car because I might kill somebody.

Yep. We are back to blaming the mother for getting pregnant again. Despite Trashman claiming that's not the case.

[General Battuta]

So if you got pregnant, TrashMan, you'd carry it to term?

Yes. I'd do a lot worse things without ever looking back.

That's the problem with the way the culture is going today..it's all "MY rights" , "My decisions"...ME ME ME.. Egoistical and self centered culture.

If you really don't want a baby, and are not ready or prepared for the eventuality that it could happen, then don't have sex. It's not impossible, quite a lot of people manage to do it. If all else fails, use a vibrator. But yea....that's a harder path. Why would we ever take that path, hmmm?

Everyone should be aware of how to use vibrators; they're by no means a last resort.

However, sex is a basic human need and right, along with food, shelter, belonging, and psychological well-being. It shouldn't be denied. Contraception allows people to access this need without fear of pregnancy (as well as finally bringing some much-needed gender equality.) If contraceptives fail, then abortion should be available.

There are plenty of people who don't have sex. Statistically, however, they suffer reduced lifespan and happiness compared to those who do -- in no small part due to the physical benefits of sex.

Unsafe sex, on the other hand, carries a tremendous number of risks.

Well, once again, statistics are what statistics do, no doubt those figures are inaccurate to a certain degree, and, I said before, accidents happen, but, let's face it, even if it were 50%, roughly 650,000 abortions from split condoms? Still seem a bit high to me, even erring on the side of caution.

Perhaps so. However, abortion is probably not used as a regular contraceptive measure simply due to expense. Even if it is, it's a decision best left to the individual. These are their bodies, not ours.

[Scotty]

Because that path sucks. Sex is way better than any damned vibrator.

It's not like I don't drive a car because I might kill somebody.

sex != driving.

And you don't purposefully kill someone when you go out driving.  An abortion is purposeful.

[Flipside]

Perhaps so. However, abortion is probably not used as a regular contraceptive measure simply due to expense. Even if it is, it's a decision best left to the individual. These are their bodies, not ours.

Certainly, the final choice is with the parent/s of the child, but, the whole point of my argument is that probably the best way to bring down the number of abortions taking place would be to improve sex education and ensure the availability of contraception.

[iamzack]

Because that path sucks. Sex is way better than any damned vibrator.

It's not like I don't drive a car because I might kill somebody.

sex != driving.

And you don't purposefully kill someone when you go out driving.  An abortion is purposeful.

I was comparing killing to conceiving, not to killing.

Sex is a choice, driving is a choice. They can have consequences. The difference is that I can unconceive a baby. I can't unkill a person.

Saying "don't have sex if you don't want a baby" is inherently misogynistic.

[Blue Lion]

Imagine an extra 1.3m babies every year in this country.

[Ghostavo]

Saying "don't have sex if you don't want a baby" is inherently misogynistic.

Hey, there are men who don't like that either and women who do.

[iamzack]

Men disapproving/women approving doesn't make it less misogynistic.

[iamzack]

Imagine an extra 1.3m babies every year in this country.

That's 445 octomoms every day for a year. O.o