Author Topic: For clarification purposes!  (Read 7973 times)

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Offline Turambar

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Re: For clarification purposes!
no need to fear the death of religion.

the good ones among us will still be good

and the bad ones will have one less thing to hide behind
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Offline karajorma

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Re: For clarification purposes!
You've basically just answered why IronBeer.

Your attitude towards the guy on Yahoo Answers is no less hatred than the one you claim atheists show towards you. Why is his belief any more ridiculous than yours? If you're a Christian your entire religion is based around a woman doing the same thing 2000 years ago and you still believe the story about her.
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Offline IronBeer

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Re: For clarification purposes!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tokoloshe

Pregnancy is not mentioned anywhere in the article. In fact, the first 5 hits I got on Google on the Tikoloshe mentioned pregnancy ...nowhere. I'm not at all familiar with African mythical creatures (hate using that term "mythical", but it must be used for differentiation), but that Yahoo answers post smells fishy to me.

Edit: Well, ****. Upon a closer look, there is apparently a sexual aspect to the Tikoloshe. Damnit, must do research more carefully next time. But there still is nothing mentioned about its children.
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Offline Ford Prefect

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Re: For clarification purposes!
2000 years of Christian tradition and belief, wiped clean during the last century. Quite frankly, I don't know how it happened (but I'd be willing to bet money on post-modern disillusion after World War 2), but it doesn't matter now. Are we in a position to witness the end of religion? I fear the answer may be "yes".
Not sure I agree with this premise, but for the sake of argument, Nietzsche first proclaimed the death of God in 1882, suggesting that what Heidegger (I know, again....) considered the inevitable death of metaphysics was in motion long before World War II.
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Offline karajorma

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Re: For clarification purposes!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tokoloshe

Pregnancy is not mentioned anywhere in the article. In fact, the first 5 hits I got on Google on the Tikoloshe mentioned pregnancy ...nowhere. I'm not at all familiar with African mythical creatures (hate using that term "mythical", but it must be used for differentiation), but that Yahoo answers post smells fishy to me.

There's no mention of God causing pregnancies in virgins in the Old testament either.
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Offline Flipside

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Re: For clarification purposes!
I always find it interesting that these huge debates over spirituality and morals tend to multiply over the March-June stretch of the year.

 

Offline BlackDove

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Re: For clarification purposes!
I find it interesting people actually participate in them.

 

Offline IronBeer

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Re: For clarification purposes!
(And I wonder why I can never get any work done...  :rolleyes:)

There's no mention of God causing pregnancies in virgins in the Old testament either.

I'm not in a position to refute that, since I still have about half the Old Testament to read through, but there have been cases of barren women bearing children (more than likely through some manner of regaining fertility, rather then divine conception). In all fairness, though, that's neither here nor there. I know jumping into this argument is an exercise in futility on my part, but I'm stuck now, so... Hm... interesting word choice, there kara. Why did you mention just the Old Testament, rather than the bible as a whole?
On a different note, whenever it comes to magic and the supernatural, I try to keep an open mind. The wife in question isn't a virgin... because she got sexed up by a Tokoloshe. Duh...
But then again... The only evidence we have for the Immaculate Conception is words in the first pages of the New Testament. To a logical and literal mind, there is no reason why either pregnancy explanation, whether it be through God's actions, or the mischief of a South African fairy (so to speak) is more valid than the (Occam's Razor approved) explanation of, "oh, she was just ****ing around".
(sigh) Dunno why I even bother speaking up... Minds are set in stone on either side, and there is quite a bit of venom between the two, I can see now...
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Offline karajorma

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Re: For clarification purposes!
Hm... interesting word choice, there kara. Why did you mention just the Old Testament, rather than the bible as a whole?

In your earlier post you pointed out that you hadn't seen it written anywhere that a Tokoloshe had caused a pregnancy. I simply pointed out that until the New Testament there was no evidence of God doing it either.

Yet despite that a lot of people were willing to believe that he did.
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Offline IronBeer

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Re: For clarification purposes!
In your earlier post you pointed out that you hadn't seen it written anywhere that a Tokoloshe had caused a pregnancy. I simply pointed out that until the New Testament there was no evidence of God doing it either.
I stated that because I was careless with my research- I had assumed that the Tokoloshe would cause a pregnancy through some supernatural means, when in actuality, the folklore suggests the creature would operate along more... conventional means.
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Offline karajorma

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Re: For clarification purposes!
Yeah but even if there hadn't been any cases of it happening previously, that doesn't mean it can't happen now.

Once you've accepted the possibility that their are evil spirit dwarfs able to turn themselves invisible, it's not a huge stretch to believe that they can make women pregnant. In the same way that once you believe in gods you can believe in Zeus screwing humans or God making Mary pregnant.
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Offline IronBeer

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Re: For clarification purposes!
And yet, I know which side *my* Kool-Aid is buttered on, so to speak.  :lol: 
Perhaps I am self-deceiving. But the specifics aren't overly important, I'm sure. And at any rate, I'm harmless.
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Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: For clarification purposes!
*cackles*

Priceless.

Religious individuals regard a story about a demon impregnating a woman as mythical (and are much more inclined to believe she just isn't a virgin), but the EXACT SAME STORY in their own faith involving God is perfectly believable.  Un hunh.

For the sake of argument, parthenogenesis in humans IS possible.  The odds of it happening are infinitesimally small, but hey, you figure the number of human beings to occupy this planet over the last hundred thousand years and sure, perhaps it could happen once.

On the other hand, I have another hypothesis.  Mary made the mistake of sleeping in the same bed as her husband-to-be, or they had a little lie-down in a field one fine morning.  Her mother told her she couldn't get pregnant so long as she wasn't penetrated, but neglected to mention that there is nothing stopping dry humping from resulting in pregnancy other than timing (since the hymen isn't a barrier).  So sure, she was TECHNICALLY still a virgin, but it was good old Joe and not God that knocked her up.  But hey, it was probably a lot easier to fess to being impregnated by a divine entity than sex out of wedlock to her fundamentalist family (good grief, knowing some fundamentalist Christians/Muslims/Jews that explanation might still fly in some places today).  Clearly, we can never know... but the simplest explanation is that Mary committed a very common human sin and LIED to save her some embarrassment.  And *poof* the mythos behind Christianity was born, since some moron somewhere in history obviously decided that Christ's humanist teachings didn't bear enough merit on their own and needed some jazzing up.

Honestly.

So yeah - when you tell us to ignore rational explanations like that guy in favour of supernatural explanations with no actual proof whatsoever, you sound just as loony to us as he does to you.

Quote from: karajorma
the lack of any corroboration from the Romans means that perhaps the story of Jesus is just as much symbolic as the old testament stuff.

To be fair, the Romans crucified a LOT of people.  We can hardly expect them to have realized that one of the thousands of people they offed was going to become the crux of an entire influential religious movement two thousand years later and document him in a convenient and retrievable fashion.  Really, the least believable part of the Roamn connection is the whole cave/stone/disappearing corpse thing.  The Romans BURNED their dead.  The Christians only began burying them in tombs several decades later as a means of differentiating themselves.

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Offline IronBeer

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Re: For clarification purposes!
I'd just like to point out that the Gospels were actually written upwards of 100 years after the life of Jesus. So, there would be some distortion on the finer points. Heck, that's one reason why there are 4 Gospels in the New Testament.
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Offline karajorma

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Re: For clarification purposes!
Yeah. I'm well aware of that fact IronBeer. Sadly many Christians deny that and believe that they were actually written by the apostles themselves.

To be fair, the Romans crucified a LOT of people.  We can hardly expect them to have realized that one of the thousands of people they offed was going to become the crux of an entire influential religious movement two thousand years later and document him in a convenient and retrievable fashion.

That isn't what I was on about exactly. The Romans were great writers and chroniclers. Had Jesus really existed and done as many miracles throughout the land as the bible says you would have thought it would have been mentioned somewhere! 
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Offline Bobboau

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Re: For clarification purposes!
So basically you are comparing me and others to someone who believes his third wife was impregnated by a demon and so forth...

I mean I suppose I can see the similarity from a certain gross POV, but that's like comparing a Yugo to a Maserati by sight from 20km distance....

you can't prove there is no tokoloshe!

Do I really sound like that in discussion to you guys?

yes, actualy, slightly worse. you see one could theoreticaly show me a tokoloshe, os to some extent, there could be tokoloshe and I just haven't seen any yet. but there are a lot of people like you so you don't stand out.

Goku or Superman would win in a fight.

well, Goku obviously.

Hm... interesting word choice, there kara. Why did you mention just the Old Testament, rather than the bible as a whole?

In your earlier post you pointed out that you hadn't seen it written anywhere that a Tokoloshe had caused a pregnancy. I simply pointed out that until the New Testament there was no evidence of God doing it either.

Yet despite that a lot of people were willing to believe that he did.

he just missed, it they rape.

the simplest explanation is that Mary committed a very common human sin and LIED to save her some being stoned to death at the gates of the city for adultery.

fixed that for you.

The Romans were great writers and chroniclers. Had Jesus really existed and done as many miracles throughout the land as the bible says you would have thought it would have been mentioned somewhere! 
there was a lot of messiahs back then, a plague of them if you would.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2009, 07:01:27 pm by Bobboau »
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Offline Goober5000

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Re: For clarification purposes!
The Romans were great writers and chroniclers. Had Jesus really existed and done as many miracles throughout the land as the bible says you would have thought it would have been mentioned somewhere!
Ancient rulers weren't too keen on writing about things that were politically embarrassing for them.  Even one of Caesar's major defeats was politically spun to sound positive.

Also, this ignores the plethora of documentary evidence that actually exists on the subject.


If you're a Christian your entire religion is based around a woman doing the same thing 2000 years ago and you still believe the story about her.
No, the entire religion is based about some guy rising from the dead 2000 years ago.  The virgin birth is an important sign, but is really ancillary to the main point.  After all, only one gospel really talks about it.

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: For clarification purposes!
Ancient rulers weren't too keen on writing about things that were politically embarrassing for them.  Even one of Caesar's major defeats was politically spun to sound positive.

Ah, finally. The conspiracy theory. Cause people who talk about them always sound sane to the rest of us. :p

Quote
Also, this ignores the plethora of documentary evidence that actually exists on the subject.

What contemporary evidence is there? Cause if I've missed something I'd like to know.
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Offline Scotty

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Re: For clarification purposes!
Documentary, not contemporary.

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: For clarification purposes!
Contemporary documentation. As in something written at the time, not 100 years later.
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