Author Topic: Personal Take on the Death Penalty  (Read 9913 times)

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Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: Personal Take on the Death Penalty
Now that I've cleared up a misconception, I'm of two minds about the death penalty.

1.  The death penalty is more expensive than life sentences.  Violent crime rates are significantly higher in jurisdictions that have the death penalty (an interesting correlation, I always thought).  We cannot establish absolute guilt.  Introduction of DNA evidence has exonerated numerous people given life sentences.  The chance of putting an innocent person to death is too high.  It is already unconscionable how many people serve sentences for crimes they did not commit.

That said...

2.  Some offenders, notably serial killers (who, by the way, gain a lot of notoriety but are extremely rare) cannot be rehabilitated or made to function in society and keeping them in prison for the remainder of their lives is a huge taxpayer expense.  If we can find a way to reduce the cost of the death penalty and simultaneously apply it only to the most dangerous offenders whose guilt is a 100% absolute, then I would support it.  Cases like Paul Bernardo and Clifford Olsen in Canada are perfect examples that would meet these criteria.  However, those cases are so rare it makes the point essentially moot.
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Offline colecampbell666

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Re: Personal Take on the Death Penalty
I agree as well. In Canada the average life sentence is about 5-8 years.

That is complete and utter bull****, cole.  Anyone sentenced to LIFE is also given an accompanying parole eligibility.  For adults, first degree murder is a mandatory 25 year sentence (and they can begin applying for parole under the so-called "faint hope clause" after 15 years but granting under that provision is rare).  Second degree murder carries a minimum 10 years.  (Youth are different.)

Life sentences don't mean life in prison, but they mean life in the justice system.  Offenders given a life sentence may get parole, but it is a permanent state - that reporting provision and record never go away.  They spend the rest of their lives reporting on a regular basis to CSC parole officers.  They are restricted in where they can work, travel, and vacation.

There is this notion that floats around laypeople who think that there are no consequences to a life sentence when that is anything but the case.  In addition, the recidivist rate for people with life sentences is basically non-existent.
My apologies, it was a semi-off-the-cuff argument, and the media portrays it that way. (which is why I hate CTV)
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Offline castor

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Re: Personal Take on the Death Penalty
I can not even imagine a justice system, a government or whatever, that I would trust enough to warrant it a legal right to kill members of general public. The fact that general public goes around killing each other is bad enough. :P Another thing I hate in CP is how the act of killing a person is made responsibility of the system (that is, nobody is responsible).

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Personal Take on the Death Penalty
There comes a point where I think the death penalty is the only viable recourse. This is a nebulous thing, I fear, one I tend to think should be applied on a case-by-case basis. There are three crimes I am willing to countance its use for, four if you want to get technical; it could be argued sociopathy is a prerequisite for any of them, I suppose, but that is a judgement I think is immaterial. Multiple murder, multiple rape, and what I can only describe as "destruction or attempted destruction of personality" because I don't know if a proper term for it has ever been codified; part abuse, part brainwashing, as it were. Multiple is required in the first two cases because one is always possible without realizing what is being done (although I thought long and hard before deciding rape deserved that, given that while murder can take only an instant, rape is, by nature, somewhat involved), but if one truly believed they had done something horrible the first time, a second would not an issue. The third is something one has to premeditate more or less. It cannot be a crime of passion.
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Offline Liberator

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Re: Personal Take on the Death Penalty
The question remains: how can you be 100% sure that the person you're about to condemn to death is fully responsible for the crimes he/she's been accused of?

After 10+ years of appeals and the associated investigations and so forth, if a person hasn't provided enough evidence in they're favor, they are in all likelihood guilty.  Sure some new test that only requires one DNA molecule may show up 10 years down the road.  Something may come up after the fact.  In the rare cases where that happens it's a tragedy.

The fact remains that you can't maintain an honest and fair judicial system based on "what ifs" and "maybes".
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Many names, but always me.

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Offline General Battuta

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Re: Personal Take on the Death Penalty
The question remains: how can you be 100% sure that the person you're about to condemn to death is fully responsible for the crimes he/she's been accused of?

After 10+ years of appeals and the associated investigations and so forth, if a person hasn't provided enough evidence in they're favor, they are in all likelihood guilty.  Sure some new test that only requires one DNA molecule may show up 10 years down the road.  Something may come up after the fact.  In the rare cases where that happens it's a tragedy.

The fact remains that you can't maintain an honest and fair judicial system based on "what ifs" and "maybes".

But our judicial system does run on 'what ifs' and 'maybes'. Proving reasonable doubt, accumulating sufficient evidence...there are rarely certainties.

I'm with Mobius on this one. Instead of execution, put 'em in cryo!

 

Offline Liberator

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Re: Personal Take on the Death Penalty
What I meant is you can't take a guy that has exhausted the numerous appeals that the system gives him and stuff him away in a cell on the off chance something comes up that exonerates him.  I wouldn't even push for the death penalty in cases where it's that shaky most of the time.
So as through a glass, and darkly
The age long strife I see
Where I fought in many guises,
Many names, but always me.

There are only 10 types of people in the world , those that understand binary and those that don't.

  

Offline karajorma

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Re: Personal Take on the Death Penalty
Yeah you can. What you mean is you don't want to.
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Offline Ghostavo

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Re: Personal Take on the Death Penalty
Quote from: Benjamin Franklin
It is better [one hundred] guilty Persons should escape than that one innocent Person should suffer.
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Offline colecampbell666

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Re: Personal Take on the Death Penalty
I think that it's better that they rot away in a cell, it's actual punishment.
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Offline Mefustae

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Re: Personal Take on the Death Penalty
I think that it's better that they rot away in a cell, it's actual punishment.
What we really need to consider is what actual good comes of punishment? We're aiming for deterrence, and surely there must be a better way to deter crime than to divert active, able-bodied citizens away to guard, feed and clothe other able-bodied citizens.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Personal Take on the Death Penalty
I think that it's better that they rot away in a cell, it's actual punishment.
What we really need to consider is what actual good comes of punishment? We're aiming for deterrence, and surely there must be a better way to deter crime than to divert active, able-bodied citizens away to guard, feed and clothe other able-bodied citizens.

Well, execution arguably diverts even more able-bodied citizens, since you not only need to keep them on Death Row for a long time (just as long as these 'life sentence' folks actually stay in prison), but you have to go through multiple appeals, and then you actually need to perform the execution.

Presumably, though, the people who do all this work are working in the prison system voluntarily, so isn't it just a case of creating more jobs?

 

Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: Personal Take on the Death Penalty
I think that it's better that they rot away in a cell, it's actual punishment.
What we really need to consider is what actual good comes of punishment? We're aiming for deterrence, and surely there must be a better way to deter crime than to divert active, able-bodied citizens away to guard, feed and clothe other able-bodied citizens.

There's an adage that comes to mind:  punishment must be sharp, swift, and sure for it to be a deterrent for crime.  As punishment is none of these things in a fair justice system, there isn't much point in aiming for deterrent effect.

Seriously, the vast majority of studies have found that types and lengths of punishment have almost no effect on the crime rate, other than punishments that keep criminals out of circulation longer lower the crime rate in a localized fashion (and more server punishments, like the death penalty, correlate to a localized INCREASE in the severity of violent crime).  Rehabilitation works for only a very, very limited few.

Personally, I like the idea of penal colonies.  Canada should establish theirs near Alert Bay :P
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Offline Blue Lion

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Re: Personal Take on the Death Penalty
Rehabilitation works for only a very, very limited few.

I find it weird that the idea of rehabilitation will never work because criminals have some kind of disease or something that prevents them from never committing that crime again.

Basically we're saying the reasons these people commit crimes can never be changed?

 

Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: Personal Take on the Death Penalty
Basically we're saying the reasons these people commit crimes can never be changed?

The crime with the lowest recidivist rate is murder.  Why?  The vast majority of murders are so-called "crimes of passion."  The only person that ever had anything to fear from the perpetrator is the now-dead individual.  That is why the majority of people who commit murder never go on to commit other serious crimes.

However, "ordinary" violent crime (assault, sexual assault, robbery, uttering threats, etc) isn't so simple.  With the exception of sexual assault, all of those crimes are heavily tied to social living conditions - the poorer you are, the more likely to commit those crimes.  The same goes for property crimes and crimes like heavy drug use.  Now, the problem is that inevitably people get caught, and 8-12 months later when they've finished with the justice system they go serve a prison sentence.  While in prison, they are forced into a series of programs and education designed to rehabilitate them and make them productive members of society.  They are eventually paroled and the sentence expires.  So where's the problem?

The problem is that none of the measures taken in prison address the fundamental problem:  social conditions.  People turn back to community supports, and the supports offenders are used to are other offenders.  They go right back to the people they were involved with before their sentence - which, more often than not, gets them right back into the activities that sent them to prison in the first place.

The best way to reduce recidivism is to reduce the time spent in prison for less-serious offences and dramatically increase the level of social support outside of the prison system.  People with positive community ties are much less likely to commit crimes.

There are a million and one reasons why people break the social contract and participate in criminal activity and we're never going to address them all, but the idea of rehabilitation is flawed from the get-go.  It assumes the reason the person committed a crime is entirely internal, when most criminal activity has more to do with where the person lives and who they associate with.  And yes, there are always going to be the people who stand up and say "I grew up in XYZ and turned out just fine!  If I can do it, anyone else can!  All they need to do is work hard!".  Bull****.  The people who manage to escape those social conditions have better supports than the people who don't.

So - the short is no, we're probably not going to change the reasons people commit crimes.  Our best strategy is to get the low-risk offenders out of prison and into a healthy social environment as quickly as possible while making sure the high-risk and repeat offenders get locked away for as long as possible.
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Offline Blue Lion

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Re: Personal Take on the Death Penalty
That's just good rehabilitation.

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Personal Take on the Death Penalty
Well, execution arguably diverts even more able-bodied citizens, since you not only need to keep them on Death Row for a long time (just as long as these 'life sentence' folks actually stay in prison), but you have to go through multiple appeals, and then you actually need to perform the execution.

Presumably, though, the people who do all this work are working in the prison system voluntarily, so isn't it just a case of creating more jobs?

I would argue that the death row appeals process and waiting time is the result of a broken justice system, but hey...
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Offline karajorma

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Re: Personal Take on the Death Penalty
In which case the broken justice system needs to be fixed before anyone else gets executed.
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Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Personal Take on the Death Penalty
Correction. It needs to fixed to eliminate the long delays before people are executed.
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Offline Liberator

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Re: Personal Take on the Death Penalty
That's my basic feeling, once appeals are exhausted, they still sit around for anywhere from 5 to 20 years.
So as through a glass, and darkly
The age long strife I see
Where I fought in many guises,
Many names, but always me.

There are only 10 types of people in the world , those that understand binary and those that don't.