[aRaven]

Unfortunately there will be no KOTOR3. Just a stupid MMO.

agreed

[SpardaSon21]

I loved KOTOR2.  It really ripped the Jedi Code a new one and knocked the Jedi Order off their high horse.  It made the universe seem really gray, and I like grayness in my RPG's.  And yes, I am a fan of the Republic Commando novels.  I now hate those arrogant Jettise after reading those books.

[Pred the Penguin]

I just remembered what I loved most about KOTOR2...
Mind tricking people into jumping off ledges.

[Vidmaster]

Kotor 2 was actually the much better game compared with Kotor 1. However, it's an unfinished game.
Soon, soon the Restoration Project is finished ( http://www.team-gizka.org/wip.html )

The moral questions and philosophical discussions about good, evil and consequences were just awesome.
And Kreia.   Best character I've ever seen in a videogame. She constantly keeps the tension, keeps you interested, keeps you wondering. Wonderful writing for her.

There is this moment on NarShaddar, were a beggar approches you. Me, playing the good jedi gave him credits, even more than he asked for. And then Kreia showed me how dangerous such "good" behavior can be too. The happy begar is robbed two streets away because he got so much money now.

Great moment. You really start questioning all the Jedi / Sith / Good / Bad - ideals and your legimitation of making decisions for others. Now, TSLRP, FINISH!!!

I loved KOTOR2.  It really ripped the Jedi Code a new one and knocked the Jedi Order off their high horse.  It made the universe seem really gray.

That's exactly what I am talking about. Just awesome.


Hey Sparda, play The Witcher.
Classic RPG in perfection, great narrative interaction, constant decision making.
I have never made so many wrong decisions in one game with good intend.

You don't need to read the books first (the game probably even works better then) although those are great and should be read.

[SpardaSon21]

Torrented The Witcher, never got really into it.  The combat system wasn't that good IMO.  Too repetitive, it was really just a bunch of left-clicks.  KOTOR and KOTOR2 had all those cool animations like ducking, dodging, parries, and different attacks.  It was like NWN, except closer and more immersing.  They did a really good job adapting the D&D combat system to Star Wars in KOTOR and KOTOR2.

[Vidmaster]

Torrented The Witcher, never got really into it.  The combat system wasn't that good IMO.  Too repetitive, it was really just a bunch of left-clicks.  KOTOR and KOTOR2 had all those cool animations like ducking, dodging, parries, and different attacks.  It was like NWN, except closer and more immersing.

I like the combat system. Also, the animations are best in the genre and it asks more of the user. First, you have to get the timing right. Second, you need to worry about lots of enemies mostly and about your position relative to them.
Count in spells, three combat stances you can (and have to) switch on the fly, dodging and parrying (although parry is auto), it's a pretty cool system.

And then, the potions.

[SpardaSon21]

I guess I never got deep enough into the game in that case.  But The Witcher just didn't hook me like KOTOR2 has.  KOTOR2 also has mods plus there's that restoration project in the works.

[Scotty]

Torrented The Witcher, never got really into it.  The combat system wasn't that good IMO.  Too repetitive, it was really just a bunch of left-clicks.  KOTOR and KOTOR2 had all those cool animations like ducking, dodging, parries, and different attacks.  It was like NWN, except closer and more immersing.

I like the combat system. Also, the animations are best in the genre and it asks more of the user. First, you have to get the timing right. Second, you need to worry about lots of enemies mostly and about your position relative to them.
Count in spells, three combat stances you can (and have to) switch on the fly, dodging and parrying (although parry is auto), it's a pretty cool system.

And then, the potions.

When I'm playing an RPG, I don't want to have to pay attention to it like an FPS.

[Vidmaster]

guess you don't like Mass Effect either then

[Ransom]

While I can't really disagree with your assessment of Torment's ending, I'm a bit puzzled that it made you actually dislike Avellone. Despite the unsatisfying resolution, I think his work on Torment is still some of the best storytelling the game industry has seen. I'll take a work of fantastic originality and ambition that stumbles at the last moment over conventional mediocrity any day of the week.

KotOR2-wise, I agree completely. I actually found the first KotOR almost laughable, particularly toward the end - even had the plot twist not been so predictable, BioWare destroyed any meaning it could have had by gradually forcing the player character to become a caricature. You're either a deranged cartoon villain or a preachy saint. Apparently that's BioWare's idea of a moral quandary.

Have you played Mask of the Betrayer?

[Knight Templar]

but but... cartoony villains rock!

[Mr. Vega]

While I can't really disagree with your assessment of Torment's ending, I'm a bit puzzled that it made you actually dislike Avellone. Despite the unsatisfying resolution, I think his work on Torment is still some of the best storytelling the game industry has seen. I'll take a work of fantastic originality and ambition that stumbles at the last moment over conventional mediocrity any day of the week.

I don't like being disappointed. You put together a first two acts like Torment did, you have a storyteller's obligation to make the final act worthy of the first two. He did not. He roped me in and then left me dangling. The gaming equivalent of "remember to drink more ovaltine." And I don't dislike him anymore, though I am kinda pissed off that overrated guys like him and Levine are constantly worshiped by the game media when they really don't deserve it (Levine hasn't written a great story since SS2, ten years ago), while they ignore or bash a truly brilliant writer like Ragnar Tornquist (I still believe that Dreamfall is the best game ever).

I don't doubt that Avellone has enormous talent. I'm just going to hold off calling him a great writer until he actually manages to bring a story to a real conclusion.

[Scotty]

guess you don't like Mass Effect either then

That isn't the same as the picture I get when I look at the description of combat.  Changing stances is too complicated for me to care, especially if it's required to be effective.

[General Battuta]

Torrented The Witcher, never got really into it.  The combat system wasn't that good IMO.  Too repetitive, it was really just a bunch of left-clicks.  KOTOR and KOTOR2 had all those cool animations like ducking, dodging, parries, and different attacks.  It was like NWN, except closer and more immersing.

I like the combat system. Also, the animations are best in the genre and it asks more of the user. First, you have to get the timing right. Second, you need to worry about lots of enemies mostly and about your position relative to them.
Count in spells, three combat stances you can (and have to) switch on the fly, dodging and parrying (although parry is auto), it's a pretty cool system.

And then, the potions.

When I'm playing an RPG, I don't want to have to pay attention to it like an FPS.

Man, you must have missed out on Baldur's Gate.

[Scotty]

Fine.  There are exceptions.  As a general observation, however, RPGs require less minute attention that FPSs in a combat scenario.

[Ransom]

...while they ignore or bash a truly brilliant writer like Ragnar Tornquist (I still believe that Dreamfall is the best game ever).

Here we'll have to disagree completely.

Longest Journey was excellent, but I thought Dreamfall was a horrible mess. The character's motivations were flimsy and many of the turning points in the game were painfully contrived. Particularly scenes like the one where that soldier character crosses paths with April Ryan, they have a little chat, and suddenly he starts doubting everything he's been brought up to believe. Sorry, I don't buy it. The characters were the worst kind of unconvincing - they essentially felt like they'd been forced along a certain path to achieve the direction Tornquist wanted for his story. That's pretty much the definition of lazy character writing.

I don't know how you can decry Avellone for writing sloppy endings and in the same breath praise Tornquist's Dreamfall, which did the same thing. The game introduces some grand, vague threat at the beginning of the story and at the end of it you discover that it won't even really become relevant until the next game. Not to mention all the other wonderful loose ends he left dangling in that cliffhanger.

Even if he failed to follow them through with real answers, I think Avellone deserves respect for even asking the questions his stories do in an industry where such adventurousness is almost unheard of. I more or less enjoy Tornquist's work despite my complaints, but it's thematically simplistic and I don't feel like it's on the same level.

[Mr. Vega]

Kian had lived a cloistered life that nurtured his idealism before coming to Marcuria. His beliefs had never been challenged before, and he was totally naive of the realities of life or war, so the Azadi leaders had not yet been able to condition him into overlooking injustice and the crimes his people were committing. He was not a soldier, he was a monk who had a crisis of fath when he entered the outside world. April only introduced him to the concept of the Azadi commiting injustice- he was merely shocked at the strength of her opposing beliefs. It was his experiences in Oldtown, in the magical ghetto, and simply meeting the resisting Marcurians that changed him. I found that perfectly believable that he would choose his faith over obedience given his background.

And April:

RPS: A lot of people were upset with the April storyline, that she starts off upset, becomes more miserable, and then essentially dies. No one was expecting her storyline to start low, and then go down further. I found it really interesting – it went against expectations, it wasn’t about being heroic, and I really enjoyed that. I became angry with her for being so depressed, wanting to shout at her to snap out of it. It was such an honest response. At the end of TLJ she learns she’s not the most important, she’s not taking over control of the Balance, but I still wanted to yell at her, “You did amazing stuff! You changed the world! You did your part! That’s good enough.” Was there a greater commentary to this?

Ragnar: Yeah, absolutely. The greater commentary in Dreamfall was about one thing: it’s about faith. Obviously it has commentary on the real world, in terms of occupation of one nation by another and justifying that, and other undertones… well, overtones! But faith was the whole package. April sacrificed so much in TLJ, and at the end realised she’s not who she thought she would be. Actually, in her situation she should have been happy. You don’t have to sit in a tower for a thousand years. Go and live your life – you did a great thing! But after she did that, nobody knew, nobody remembered. Not being recognised, that can be a real blow to people. April was a strong person, but she was also immature. She was 18 years old, and to have something like that happen to you, and then be thrown back into normal life, and a normal life that has pretty much gone to hell… There’s so much I wish I could tell you, because there’s so much I know, that I don’t want to say until I know for sure that nothing’s going to happen, or if I get to tell the whole story – which is probably what’s going to happen. What happened to April right after TLJ is very important. Obviously she didn’t return to her home, and that has something to do with fear as well, which is another aspect of Dreamfall: having too much fear of something, and not being able to move on in life. She has lost faith in herself, in her world, in her friends, and she stayed in Arcadia.
...
The most important thing with it is we could say, Zoe is here, April is here, Kian is here. And they all travelled. Zoe never went to hopelessness, but she reached disillusionment. But through the act of destroying Faith, she regained faith. Kian also went to disillusionment, to a sort of spiritual death, and then transformation – he skipped hopelessness. While April just fell down.

Does that sound like lazy character work?

And Zoe's predicament I know all too well. She was a typical around-20-year old who became disillusioned and directionless in life. If she didn't try to save Reza or try to figure out what was going on, if she didn't care enough to do anything for the  person she loved and cared about most in the world, then what would that say about her? As she said to Damien, she went on this journey because she wouldn't be able to live with herself if she abandoned Reza to die. That's a believable motivation, I'm sorry.

And unlike Torment, Tornquist hasn't finished telling the story yet! That's like bashing Tolkien for not ending LOTR with the Two Towers. Dreamfall was about Zoe's story, with all the other threads flowing around it, in response to it, waiting for their conclusion in later installments. I fail to see the harm in that. He was only obligated to finish Zoe's arc and he did that brilliantly, so yes, I think Dreamfall did have a great ending. He brought one aspect of the overarching story to a moving conclusion and left the other stuff for later. That's not lazy, that's good classical storytelling. I think that you and most of the the gaming press became curmudgeons and were too busy complaining how Dreamfall was so much different and darker than TLJ to see how good it was. Kinda reminds me how critics hated The Empire Strikes Back when it first came out because it had the audacity to be so different from the first Star Wars.

And Tornquist drops a mountain of hints as to what the Undreaming might be, if you pay close enough attention. I'd be glad to discuss my theories with you.

[Ransom]

You make a large assumption there. I don't believe I said anything about the story itself. I like dark stories - if anything I found Dreamfall far more interesting than Longest Journey on a conceptual level. It's the execution I take issue with.

It's the same with the Kian/April encounter. You explain it well, and it looks great on paper. But it's not the idea of that discussion I have a problem with. It's how it was written. The entire conversation just did not feel real to me - that these two more or less opposing characters could out of the blue have such a candid and rational conversation about a subject they're both extremely passionate about. On a writing level it felt contrived and unsubtle, but more importantly it just made Kian's character arc feel far too easy. There was never any question that he would come around, and as a result his internal conflict comes across as forced and is robbed of any impact it might have had. Conceptually, there's nothing wrong with the character you describe. But the Kian I saw in the game was flat and predictable.

I'll admit that it sounds like more thought went into the characters than I'd assumed, though. But writing is all about communication of ideas, and evidently Dreamfall failed to deliver there for me. I mean, you're right. That doesn't sound like lazy character work at all. But, for me, the execution of it - the actual hammer-and-chisel writing of it - fell completely flat and undermined the characters to the extent that there could be a discrepancy like this between our opinions of them. Not lazy character work, but lazy (or at least unsuccessful) character writing. Maybe it's the translation, then. I don't know which languages of the game Tornquist wrote.

As for the ending, you make a strong point there and I'll concede it. I hope you are right. The thing is, I'm not actually worried about what the Undreaming is, and more often than not I enjoy cliffhangers. I don't consume stories for their answers, but the questions they raise. Considering your grievances with Torment I wonder if that's not the difference between us.

You've given me something to think about, in any case. I'm tempted to play the game through a second time with this in mind to see if my opinion of it changes.

Moving back to the original topic, though: Qualitative arguments aside, Tornquist's work is much less inquisitive than Avellone's. Where Avellone's are stories about ideas, Tornquist's are stories about people. That's not to say one is inherently superior to the other - I know which I prefer, obviously, but that's as far as that goes - and I think comparing them is difficult, at least on the level you've chosen. It's comparing high-concept with traditional storytelling. Adam Roberts with Star Wars. I think to dismiss one as overrated and say the other is 'truly brilliant' is more telling of your personal tastes than it is an observation of their ability.

[Mr. Vega]

It's the same with the Kian/April encounter. You explain it well, and it looks great on paper. But it's not the idea of that discussion I have a problem with. It's how it was written. The entire conversation just did not feel real to me - that these two more or less opposing characters could out of the blue have such a candid and rational conversation about a subject they're both extremely passionate about.

I find Kian approaching April as believable as a newly arrived American soldier in Iraq questioning an Iraqi why they're being so ungrateful to their protectors and the Iraqi being fluent in english enough to explain to him why he hates Americans. Not common, but perfectly believable. It was April who would have been the likely one to refuse the conversation, and for all her bitterness and hatred of the Azadi, she's not a native of Arcadia. She's seen too much to have her mind completely closed and shuttered and I think that was why she was willing to engage in a fairly cordial argument with Kian. The conversation consisted of Kian asking a native about what they thought of the Azadi, because after all, how could she possibly disagree with him, and when she did, of course when faced with the light of truth presented by him, she would be forced to recant her position. And for April she was so shocked by an Azadi that wasn't a thug or a raving fanatic that she did what the old April might have done and decided ok, I'll talk to him.

As for the ending, you make a strong point there and I'll concede it. I hope you are right. The thing is, I'm not actually worried about what the Undreaming is, and more often than not I enjoy cliffhangers. I don't consume stories for their answers, but the questions they raise. Considering your grievances with Torment I wonder if that's not the difference between us.

Sigh....You're right about this. I just believe that's it's easy to ask a profound question and then run away terrified of what the answer might be. And it's just hard coded into me that the point of a story is it's ending - what did the Nameless One's journey lead to, I ask? Nothing. That's why it pissed me off.

Moving back to the original topic, though: Qualitative arguments aside, Tornquist's work is much less inquisitive than Avellone's. Where Avellone's are stories about ideas, Tornquist's are stories about people. That's not to say one is inherently superior to the other - I know which I prefer, obviously, but that's as far as that goes - and I think comparing them is difficult, at least on the level you've chosen. It's comparing high-concept with traditional storytelling. Adam Roberts with Star Wars. I think to dismiss one as overrated and say the other is 'truly brilliant' is more telling of your personal tastes than it is an observation of their ability.

You're wrong about that. Avellone's work is more cerebral than Tornquist's. Tornquist's work has a lot of philosophical undercurrents- they're just not in the forefront like Avellone's. Remember Cortez and his analysis of Warren Hughes's painting? Or his speech about the role of mystery? Or in Dreamfall, the White saying that Zoe's makes her dreams real, and that Faith was the same way? That's how she created the Winter-she dreamed it as she died. There's a lot of lines in Dreamfall (especially April and the Guardian) that say that dreams are the mechanism by which reality is created (which would imply the Undreaming to be the Shiva to dreaming's Brahma). The ideas are there, they're just not as obvious as in Torment or KOTORII.

And you've gotten the impression that I dislike openly philosophical stories. You're wrong - I adore them. My favorite TV show ever is Angel because it's the only western show I've ever seen that discusses ideas so nakedly and intelligently, which a lot of people condemn as being "preachy". What most people think of as preachy, I think of as direct and honest. I like Charles Dickens. I love Avellone's style. I just think Tornquist is better, and you can't call someone less inquisitive just because they go for the emotional gut-punch and the other guy shies away from that.

[Ransom]

I find Kian approaching April as believable as a newly arrived American soldier in Iraq questioning an Iraqi why they're being so ungrateful to their protectors and the Iraqi being fluent in english enough to explain to him why he hates Americans. Not common, but perfectly believable. It was April who would have been the likely one to refuse the conversation, and for all her bitterness and hatred of the Azadi, she's not a native of Arcadia. She's seen too much to have her mind completely closed and shuttered and I think that was why she was willing to engage in a fairly cordial argument with Kian. The conversation consisted of Kian asking a native about what they thought of the Azadi, because after all, how could she possibly disagree with him, and when she did, of course when faced with the light of truth presented by him, she would be forced to recant her position. And for April she was so shocked by an Azadi that wasn't a thug or a raving fanatic that she did what the old April might have done and decided ok, I'll talk to him.

Hold on. I'm not saying I find the scenario unbelievable. On the contrary, I said the scene works fine for me on paper. It's the conversation itself that struck the wrong note with me. The dialogue felt too weighted with authorly intent and after Longest Journey I suppose I was expecting something more subtle. The circumstance and the words they were speaking did not feel natural, however sound the reasoning for them existing.

And, again, I felt like I was being beaten over the head with Kian's naivete. From that point on it was flagrantly obvious where Kian's character was going and so there was no drama there for me. Perhaps that is what jarred for me more than the character's motives - Kian felt flat and puppet-like, and my first instinct was to attack his motivations.

Sigh....You're right about this. I just believe that's it's easy to ask a profound question and then run away terrified of what the answer might be. And it's just hard coded into me that the point of a story is it's ending - what did the Nameless One's journey lead to, I ask? Nothing. That's why it pissed me off.

That's fair enough. To me the journey is the point of a story. That's where the changes occur and it's where the characters grow. The ending is only the expression of how far they've come and the punctuation that closes the story. While there's no doubt that it's important - a strong ending can turn an average story into a good one or a great story into a classic - I have difficulty accepting that a less-than-satisfying one unmakes everything that came before it. If that was the case I'd hate every novel Stephen King ever wrote.

You're wrong about that. Avellone's work is more cerebral than Tornquist's. Tornquist's work has a lot of philosophical undercurrents- they're just not in the forefront like Avellone's. Remember Cortez and his analysis of Warren Hughes's painting? Or his speech about the role of mystery? Or in Dreamfall, the White saying that Zoe's makes her dreams real, and that Faith was the same way? That's how she created the Winter-she dreamed it as she died. There's a lot of lines in Dreamfall (especially April and the Guardian) that say that dreams are the mechanism by which reality is created (which would imply the Undreaming to be the Shiva to dreaming's Brahma). The ideas are there, they're just not as obvious as in Torment or KOTORII.

That doesn't contradict what I said, though. I did not say Tornquist's stories didn't explore any ideas, I said they were not about them. The spotlight is on the characters and the world they inhabit, and while they are far from disconnected, the ideas are - as you point out - under the surface. The story and the concept are separate things intertwined, and can be enjoyed apart.

Whereas in Avellone's work the questions permeate everything. The characters are expressions of it; the gameplay is representative of it. They're inseparable.

This isn't a criticism of Tornquist's style, but I maintain that he and Avellone write very different kinds of narrative.

And you've gotten the impression that I dislike openly philosophical stories. You're wrong - I adore them. My favorite TV show ever is Angel because it's the only western show I've ever seen that discusses ideas so nakedly and intelligently, which a lot of people condemn as being "preachy". What most people think of as preachy, I think of as direct and honest. I like Charles Dickens. I love Avellone's style. I just think Tornquist is better, and you can't call someone less inquisitive just because they go for the emotional gut-punch and the other guy shies away from that.

I don't think Avellone shies away from the 'emotional gut-punch' at all. On the contrary, I felt more for the Nameless One's various companions than I did for any character in Dreamfall. The story is full of tragedy. But perhaps that's not what you meant.

I haven't seen Angel, so I can't comment on that. But no, I don't like it when something is preachy. I feel like the job of the author isn't to tell people how things are but to give them something new to think about. A different perspective on things. I like authors that leave room for interpretation and trust their audience enough to make up their own mind. Perhaps you're right that it's easier. But I don't agree that it's inferior.