Author Topic: Non-Onion Discussion of New Star Trek Movie [[[SPOILERS!!!]]]  (Read 11302 times)

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Offline Scotty

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Re: Non-Onion Discussion of New Star Trek Movie [[[SPOILERS!!!]]]
Quote
I bought Starship Troopers 2 and have seen the third one three times

These movies, and the first are an abomination unto the book Starship Troopers.  Having read the book, and having read many books, my opinion is now the only one anyone anywhere should give a damn about.  Don't argue with me, you're wrong.  (sound familiar?)

an0n, best thing I think you could do right now would be to f*ck off and let the people who aren't hate-filled auto-trolls legitimately have intelligent conversation.

 

Offline an0n

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Re: Non-Onion Discussion of New Star Trek Movie [[[SPOILERS!!!]]]
Yeah, except I've read Starship Troopers, Forever War, Man Plus, the original 6 Dune books and more classic scifi than you've ever heard of, so I'm actually also more of an authority on those than you mooks too.

And my point about Starship Troopers is that they didn't even try to adhere to the books. They took the general concept of the universe and decided to play out as a satirical tale on the nature of military fascism.

It's also worth noting that the third movie drags the franchise more back towards the book, with the advent of the Marauder powered armour which - in the books - were what made the Mobile Infantry mobile.

Sucks to be you.
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Offline Scotty

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Re: Non-Onion Discussion of New Star Trek Movie [[[SPOILERS!!!]]]
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And my point about Starship Troopers is that they didn't even try to adhere to the books.

Are you kidding?  Rico signs up, proceeds to screw up, gets punished, bugs hit Buenos Aires with a meteor, MI gets its ass kicked on Klendathu, then they start with lesser planets.  The only things missing from the movie are power armor, a true feel for the length of the war, and the ethical/moral deliberations.  It does try to adhere.  However, it also adds a little romance between Rico and Dizzy, and Rico and Carmen (in the books, the first is a guy with a paragraph to his name, and Carmen isn't interested).

Which brings me back to Star Trek.  It didn't even try to adhere to the books (I mean, really, they turned it into an alternate reality setup.  Where the hell is that in the main story of the books?).  New backstories, different technologies, jumping the cadets to bridge crew (roughly analogous to cutting the length, see above).  The two movies are almost the same in what they followed and what they didn't.  The Uhura and Spock thing is almost the same as the Rico and Carmen little flick.

 

Offline Nuclear1

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Re: Non-Onion Discussion of New Star Trek Movie [[[SPOILERS!!!]]]
an0n, best thing I think you could do right now would be to f*ck off and let the people who aren't hate-filled auto-trolls legitimately have intelligent conversation.
Actually, an0n made some legitimate criticisms of the movie.  I share many of them.  He used Starship Troopers as an example of films he's watched and compared them to Star Trek.  I have no idea why you're going off on this epileptic fit, but you need to calm down. 

Quote
The only things missing from the movie are power armor, a true feel for the length of the war, and the ethical/moral deliberations.  It does try to adhere.
Actually, it doesn't.

The book is essentially an essay on the merits of a militaristic state and how a military fighting force should be organized.  The movie satirizes all of that.  'Adhering to the book' does not mean copy/pasting the book's plot.  It means actually adhering to the book's message as well.

In fact, the very idea that it leaves out power armor and the moral/ethical deliberations which made the book what it is means it doesn't adhere.
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Offline an0n

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Re: Non-Onion Discussion of New Star Trek Movie [[[SPOILERS!!!]]]
Quote
And my point about Starship Troopers is that they didn't even try to adhere to the books.

Are you kidding?  Rico signs up, proceeds to screw up, gets punished, bugs hit Buenos Aires with a meteor, MI gets its ass kicked on Klendathu, then they start with lesser planets.  The only things missing from the movie are power armor, a true feel for the length of the war, and the ethical/moral deliberations.  It does try to adhere.  However, it also adds a little romance between Rico and Dizzy, and Rico and Carmen (in the books, the first is a guy with a paragraph to his name, and Carmen isn't interested).

Which brings me back to Star Trek.  It didn't even try to adhere to the books (I mean, really, they turned it into an alternate reality setup.  Where the hell is that in the main story of the books?).  New backstories, different technologies, jumping the cadets to bridge crew (roughly analogous to cutting the length, see above).  The two movies are almost the same in what they followed and what they didn't.  The Uhura and Spock thing is almost the same as the Rico and Carmen little flick.

You did read the book, right?

It had virtually nothing to do with the war itself. The entire point of the book was to illustrate army life, and the feeling of being just a cog in the machine, used to fight a war you didn't really give a crap about. It was allegory for life in the contemporary US military - the plot being just a backdrop - it was used as a vehicle to convey the moral and philosophical points about the army and the benefits to the state it brings. Kinda mini-communism, imo.

And, infact, is similar to Forever War in a lot of respects - though that focuses more on the return to society after deployments than the actual military construct. Sorta more social than political.

Anyways, THAT'S what I meant about it not trying to adhere to the book. The book was about army life, and expanded that into a society based around the principles of the army to try and better convey it's political and philosophical messages. Then the movie went "Well, let's focus on the society more than the individual..." and decided to explore the larger implications of the book's ideals, parody them to make such ideas look foolish and jab at fascist beliefs, and then relegate Rico's plight to that of a simple action-oriented drama.

Which it did well, imo. And continued to do so throughout all three movies, despite gaping flaws in execution in the later two movies. They did what they set out to do, and I can appreciate the value in that even if they were hardly Oscar-worthy. They weren't a masterpiece, but they each knew what they were and simply did the best they could therein. The plots are solid, people's motivations are correct and apt, it's just they got ****ed by budget constraints and the original comic-parody which the first movie pinned onto the franchise as a tool to make the fascism look silly.

Star Trek, on the other hand, is just a cluster**** of confused goals and ideals wrapped in lens flares, CGI and hype.

It not only raped the established universal constants of the Trekverse without substituting them with anything of equal or greater value, but then proceeded to pack the sobbing, violated remains with so many cheap studio tricks, incoherent plot devices, ****ty character motivations and simplistic market-whoring bull**** that the film becomes little more than some kind of bastardized expression of post-modernism around a 1960's scifi theme.

With lens flares.

So many lens flares.
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Offline Nuke

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Re: Non-Onion Discussion of New Star Trek Movie [[[SPOILERS!!!]]]
i cant compare the new movie to nemesis until i see it, of course. so im waiting for some geek with a hat cam to record it off the movie screen and put it up on pirate bay so i can watch it. i just know that nemesis is like very low on the list of my favorite star trek movies/shows.
Wait, you are going to watch a big screen movie with big part of it's appeal relying on the stunning visual and sound effects as a blurry, shaky, skewed and poor resolution avi some jackass recorded on a backwater theater? You are kinda missing the whole point you know  :P

well its better than waiting several months for it to come out on dvd. we dont exactly have a movie theater here. and id like to see it while its still fresh so i can participate in the discussion of it.
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Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Non-Onion Discussion of New Star Trek Movie [[[SPOILERS!!!]]]
Quote
And my point about Starship Troopers is that they didn't even try to adhere to the books.

Are you kidding? 

Technically, no, they didn't, as Vervohoven (or however you spell his damn name) went on record as saying he was depressed by the book and stopped reading a chapter in.

However, an0n, stop talking. You're already wrong. You were wrong before you opened your mouth in fact. See, naming a movie after an existing franchise carries certain expectations. (As has been touched on in this thread.) These were never met. The movie is not a brillant political satire. The director admitted that he'd never read enough of the book to even get to that point of the message; so it's not a satire, it's the trainwreck it looks like. The book's message is not pro-military but anti-disarmament, and also explicitly anti-communist (Heinlein literally stated at one point communism is okay for the Bugs because they're evolved for it, but humans aren't). The movie also of course missed other central themes of the book about how a good military force is built and what its function is.

So, go back and read it again. And check your damn facts about the production team.


As for the Trek movie, I'm afraid I share some of Goob's revulsion. You can't blow that planet up. That planet isn't optional dammit. It was badly handled as well. This smells like an effort to give the franchise the BSG treatment. DS9 already did that, and did it better.
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Offline Turambar

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Re: Non-Onion Discussion of New Star Trek Movie [[[SPOILERS!!!]]]
I think the Federation will turn out acting a lot differently without Vulcan's moderating influence.  Also, since 10,000 isn't enough to sustain a viable population, perhaps the Vulcans might try to reconcile with the Romulans a lot sooner in this alternate timeline.
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Offline an0n

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Re: Non-Onion Discussion of New Star Trek Movie [[[SPOILERS!!!]]]
However, an0n, stop talking. You're already wrong. You were wrong before you opened your mouth in fact. See, naming a movie after an existing franchise carries certain expectations. (As has been touched on in this thread.) These were never met. The movie is not a brillant political satire. The director admitted that he'd never read enough of the book to even get to that point of the message; so it's not a satire, it's the trainwreck it looks like. The book's message is not pro-military but anti-disarmament, and also explicitly anti-communist (Heinlein literally stated at one point communism is okay for the Bugs because they're evolved for it, but humans aren't). The movie also of course missed other central themes of the book about how a good military force is built and what its function is.

So, go back and read it again. And check your damn facts about the production team.

Explain to me how any of that counters anything I said.
"I.....don't.....CARE!!!!!" ---- an0n
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Offline Lt.Cannonfodder

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Re: Non-Onion Discussion of New Star Trek Movie [[[SPOILERS!!!]]]
well its better than waiting several months for it to come out on dvd. we dont exactly have a movie theater here. and id like to see it while its still fresh so i can participate in the discussion of it.
Ah, my bad then.

 

Offline Knight Templar

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Re: Non-Onion Discussion of New Star Trek Movie [[[SPOILERS!!!]]]
You know, I'm enough of a realist to be able to ignore lens flares if they're coming from shiny ships shooting shiny lasers at things.  I still can't get enough of cool space ships in cool space battles (there weren't nearly enough in this movie, hell even most of the ship-to-ship action scenes were them sitting there shooting, from different  angles)

But most people who've critiqued the film in this thread have  been entirely correct.

I realize it is JJ Abrams' take on Star Trek, so it's going to be ****ed up-implausible like Alias, and explodey shiny like Terminator 3. That's fine. But so much fail took it to a new level.

For me, the lack of a coherent message really broke the movie for me. Through the course of the film, despite being filled with great actors, none of them were really tied up in anything to deliver any kind of evocative message. Kirk's dad died, so he's a rebel. Great, that's cool. He also never exhibits fear, so we know he's never afraid of failing. No emotional investment there. Spock, who is repeatedly shown to be taken to the brink of emotional outburst after being goaded re: his heritage, is only upset about his planet for a full three minutes, and then goes back to being Spock as if nothing really happened. Everyone else fell into minor roles that didn't really carry with them anything.

The clearest message I could find is that of "choice" ; the whole "destiny vs. free will" thing which is superlatively highlighted in the clearly visible alternate universe (which lacks anyone with a goatee =\  ) but the film did nothing to show how to apply that. Instead, they only referred to it in passing with Kirk going from being a rebel without a job, to a rebel on a spaceship. If the ability to carve out your own destiny is the message, Kirk's example implies the best way to go about this is to be a complete dick to everyone until they back down and let you take control. While for various contrived plot reasons, Kirk was right in the end, his methods would fail without the series of deus ex machinas.

Other than that, you have a villain with highly questionable motives, the Romulan star inexplicably blowing up, "Real" Spock somehow thinking a blackhole was the best solution, and the ensuing time travel (sans whales this time) **** up.

This is to say nothing of various other Trek inconsistencies ("Cardassian Sunrises" circa 2260, transporters at warp, giant spiky talon death star mining ships - with decks that  you have to jump between, black hole physics et al, the lines they made Leonard Nimoy say, etc.)

For a stand-alone movie, it was nothing more than a gutless action-flick with a good cast. For Trek Canon, it was worse than Nemesis. The Art Dept. should be praised (again, don't really care about lens-flares; we are looking through the narrating lens of a camera after all) as everything looked clean, crisp and cool. The cast should move on to new and better things. Abrams should stick to his own creative devices and not try to superficially reboot cult franchises. More Orion slave girls should be in film. And naked.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2009, 11:39:57 pm by Knight Templar »
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Offline an0n

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Re: Non-Onion Discussion of New Star Trek Movie [[[SPOILERS!!!]]]
I'm curious as to what Abrams thinks the word 'slave' actually means...

Anyways, it's pretty established that Orion slave girls are actually a mix of whores and manipulative *****es - and yet he decided to just paint some ***** green and stick her in her undies for no ****ing reason other than to make fanbois go "OMG! ORION SLAVE GIRL!"
"I.....don't.....CARE!!!!!" ---- an0n
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Offline Knight Templar

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Re: Non-Onion Discussion of New Star Trek Movie [[[SPOILERS!!!]]]
I'm curious as to what Abrams thinks the word 'slave' actually means...

Anyways, it's pretty established that Orion slave girls are actually a mix of whores and manipulative *****es - and yet he decided to just paint some ***** green and stick her in her undies for no ****ing reason other than to make fanbois go "OMG! ORION SLAVE GIRL!"

I guess it was supposed to imply both A) Abrams has watched at least 1 episode of Star Trek before and B) Not all Orion Slave Girls are slave girls. Some of them are just Orion girls. aka down-ass green *****es.
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Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Non-Onion Discussion of New Star Trek Movie [[[SPOILERS!!!]]]
Explain to me how any of that counters anything I said.

Your interpretation is invalid based on insufficent analysis and evidence. Go home kid.
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: Non-Onion Discussion of New Star Trek Movie [[[SPOILERS!!!]]]
I'm fairly certain an0n is correct that the Starship Troopers movie was a broad satire of the book. Verhoeven never finished reading it (or so I have heard) because he was so disgusted with the content.

 

Offline an0n

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Re: Non-Onion Discussion of New Star Trek Movie [[[SPOILERS!!!]]]
Yep.

According to various interview at the time (and possibly the DVD commentary - I forget) he read a bit and - being Dutch and therefore a coward - he decided it was stupid and too contrary to his bull**** liberal ideals.

The movie was originally just a random scifi movie, but they decided to tack on the Starship Troopers name a bit before they started shooting, changed just enough to make it vaguely fit, and then Verhoeven mashed in more parodying of the themes in the book just to be a douche.

And to quote the hallowed wiki:

Quote
Heinlein avoids any significant discussion of the details of the political system's functioning, reserving his attention, instead, for questions of why someone might choose to sacrifice themselves for the greater good.

Thus, my mini-communism comment.
"I.....don't.....CARE!!!!!" ---- an0n
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Offline BloodEagle

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Re: Non-Onion Discussion of New Star Trek Movie [[[SPOILERS!!!]]]
It's raining fire outside.  :lol:

 

Offline Swifty

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Re: Non-Onion Discussion of New Star Trek Movie [[[SPOILERS!!!]]]
After watching SNL Weekend Update guest starring Chris Pine, Zachary Quinto, and Leonard Nimoy, I expected the response I'm seeing in this thread to be prevalent on the Trek boards.

But actually, most of the Trek boards I've visited seemed to absolutely adore it save for these types of people.

Favorite line from the movie:

"Your father was captain of a starship for twelve minutes. He saved eight hundred lives, including your mother's and yours. I dare you to do better."

 

Offline Turambar

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Re: Non-Onion Discussion of New Star Trek Movie [[[SPOILERS!!!]]]
"Your father was captain of a starship for twelve minutes. He saved eight hundred lives, including your mother's and yours. I dare you to do better."


that one was in the trailer.  I prefer the classics, such as "I'm giving it all she's got Captain!!"
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Offline an0n

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Re: Non-Onion Discussion of New Star Trek Movie [[[SPOILERS!!!]]]
I'd've preferred a plot worthy of the immense marketing budget.
"I.....don't.....CARE!!!!!" ---- an0n
"an0n's right. He's crazy, an asshole, not to be trusted, rarely to be taken seriously, and never to be allowed near your mother. But, he's got a knack for being right. In the worst possible way he can find." ---- Yuppygoat
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