Author Topic: Are Battlestar Fans Trek fans?  (Read 13881 times)

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Re: Are Battlestar Fans Trek fans?
Yep. Only the cheapest of movies employ complications and reversals. You can tell the good ones because everything always goes smoothly and according to the heroes' plans.

 

Offline newman

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Re: Are Battlestar Fans Trek fans?
OMG.. he used sarcasm! Nooooo...
You know what the chain of command is? It's the chain I go get and beat you with 'til ya understand who's in ruttin' command here! - Jayne Cobb

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Are Battlestar Fans Trek fans?
Yep. Only the cheapest of movies employ complications and reversals. You can tell the good ones because everything always goes smoothly and according to the heroes' plans.

But the complications and reversals usually make a smidgeon of logical sense.

 

Offline Snagger

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Re: Are Battlestar Fans Trek fans?
It's a new timeline created by Nero's interference. Anything could happen.

Indeed... including breaking with the tradition of clear character motivations and believable plots and instead offering an action thrillride with "plotholes of fortunate convenience" galore.

The problem of the movie isn't that it creates a new timeline... it's that it constantly requires the viewer to make huge leaps of faith within the new timeline.
It really got out of hand in the 2nd half of the movie ... the first half was actually quite good... so i guess you could indeed say they got it "half right" LOL.

After this movie the real question won't be whether Trek Fans may also be BSG fans, but whether Trek fans can still be Trek fans.

Spoiler:
So Kirk got stranded on a barren ice-planet... , despite it being just a wee bit untypical for Spock or any Starfleet officer to make such a decision, even when emotionally distressed, it was quite fortunate really, because it allowed the producers to re-use some clone of their previous cloverfield movie monster to chase Kirk around to the ohs and ahs of the audience. So now Kirk is stuck on an ice Planet? Well yes... but fortunately , out of all the places he could have landed, he landed within walking distance of the one cave that future "old Spock" choose as his living quarters as he was abandoned on the same planet. Yah well, so now Spock and Kirk are stuck on the same planet right ? Well yes... but fortunately  there is also a Federation outpost within walking distance, which is fortunately  crewed by Scotty, who in the future was fortunately  able to figure out how to beam people across interstellar distances, which is really fortunate, because fortunately Spock brought Scotty's formula from the future so they can beam themselves back to the Enterprise which is currently in warp. Fortunately this technology will propably be forgotten if there ever is another movie because otherwise the Federation would have a tactical and strategic advantage that would allow them to quickly take over the whole universe with little resistance.

Know what i mean ?;) It has nothing to do with the timeline switch... it is simply a very very very badly constructed plot that has holes in it all over.
It's constructed like a 5 year olds ramblings, but nothing you could call a "well made plot" with a straight face.

As someone else aptly put it: It's like they had some kinda committee that got told what was gonna happen next and then had to come up with whatever bull***** reason they could think of to make it happen.
Spoiler:
Aright! So next.. we need Kirk to fight a monster! That will be cool right!?
Yeah well, but he s on a ship!
Ok we got to get Kirk off the Ship!
Lets have Spock space him!
Woha cool! Lets do it!!
Wait, how does he get back to the ship?
Well he can totally meet Spock there ! From the future! and Scotty will beam him back!
Wait, Scotty is there too ?
Well of course! How else are they gonna get beamed back to the ship ?
WARGGRAHGRAGRL ??????
What about the huge leaps of faith over things like warp engines, transporters, energy shields, a society where almost everyone is so altruistic and well educated, where so many alien species happen to have the same basic anthropology, dimensions and weight as humans...  The original and franchised series of Star Trek needed every bit as much "willing suspension of disbelief" as the film.  The difference was that the film was much more entertaining, lavished with much more care, and din't have to clumsily ram home some moralistic plattitudes like the final episode of BSG did.

 

Offline Dilmah G

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Re: Are Battlestar Fans Trek fans?
Hey! I LIKED the finale!

 

Offline Meleardil

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Re: Are Battlestar Fans Trek fans?
There IS a difference between SCIENCE-fiction or even Fantasy stories, and some colorful mescaline hallucination. This "story" was closer to the later. :P

ANY kinda make-believe story is NOT believable if there are obvious and painful inconsistencies in the whole story, not to mention the extra irrational character behavior. Make-believe IS a make-believe because you CAN imagine yourself into the story. THIS movie was not even close to that.

Conclusion: it is a sh*t. Some Donald duck comics has 10 times deeper art in them than this "story".
"I think it is impossible to really understand somebody, what they want, what they believe, and not love them the way they love themselves."
Speaker for the Dead

 

Offline Snagger

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Re: Are Battlestar Fans Trek fans?
Hey! I LIKED the finale!
So did I, a lot,

Spoiler:
right up to the bit with head 6 and Head Baltar walking through New York.  We got the point when they reached pre-historic Earth.  It didn't need to be sign-posted that humanity is now repeating the cycle.  Indeed, it was so lengthily, clumsily and heavily done that it was insulting.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2009, 02:56:22 pm by karajorma »

 

Offline newman

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Re: Are Battlestar Fans Trek fans?
Everyone's a director these days..  :rolleyes:
You've pretty much missed the point of those last few minutes.
Spoiler:
If anything, it was a statement that anything can happen and this time the cycle may not repeat itself. "Repeat any complex system enough times, and sooner or later something extraordinary will happen". Nah, the ending worked just right for me.

« Last Edit: May 29, 2009, 11:39:13 am by newman »
You know what the chain of command is? It's the chain I go get and beat you with 'til ya understand who's in ruttin' command here! - Jayne Cobb

 

Offline Snagger

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Re: Are Battlestar Fans Trek fans?
Well, I see the ending a different way from you, but that's beside the point.  What I was getting at was that I liked the film, and all the more so for the lack of the "moral of the week" style of the Trek TV series and their previous films.  It was a simple, rip-roaring joy-ride, and didn't pretend to be anything more.

 

Offline Meleardil

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Re: Are Battlestar Fans Trek fans?
...so, you suggest, that it is impossible to make a film to be a "joyride" and a great story at the same time? Well... it seems this two just cant be in the same movie in the last decade. What is weird, that in the old times directors somehow managed to do that. Perhaps that generation died out without passing the secret to the next generation.
"I think it is impossible to really understand somebody, what they want, what they believe, and not love them the way they love themselves."
Speaker for the Dead

 

Offline Snagger

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Re: Are Battlestar Fans Trek fans?
...so, you suggest, that it is impossible to make a film to be a "joyride" and a great story at the same time? Well... it seems this two just cant be in the same movie in the last decade. What is weird, that in the old times directors somehow managed to do that. Perhaps that generation died out without passing the secret to the next generation.
Not at all, but I don't think Trek has ever been well endowed with great stories.  I just don't think it's fair to say the film was inferior in its story to earlier Trek - think of The Motion Picture, Trek V, Nemesis, all the endless holodeck series episodes, most of Enterprise, DS9 before the Dominion war started, and most of the original Star Trek series; they were just awful.  Only a few episodes of the assorted series stood tall like The Wrath of Khan in their production values, and none of the earlier films were "clever", including Kahn - there were just a handful of episodes that left you thinking that you'd seen anything new.  Trek is not what you watch for sharp, new or intelligent sci-fi - it's sci-pulp, entertaining in it's own right, but not of high quality writing.

 

Offline Meleardil

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Re: Are Battlestar Fans Trek fans?
Well... I see your point. From that point of view you are absolutely right.
:)
I still have 3 complains: epileptic camera movement (instead of "epic"), too many miracles, and the selfconsistency was shot in the balls few times.
"I think it is impossible to really understand somebody, what they want, what they believe, and not love them the way they love themselves."
Speaker for the Dead

 

Offline Mikes

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Re: Are Battlestar Fans Trek fans?
too many miracles, and the selfconsistency was shot in the balls few times.

This really is where my major complaints lays.
It has nothing to do with the nature of science-fiction or fantasy.

A warp drive for instance is introduced to us a device that works a certain way, just as a fantasy story might introduce magic that functions in specific ways. Suspension of disbelief does the rest.
Sci-Fi and Fantasy is about world building, which just might happen to include technology and magic. Good science fiction / fantasy however will aim to be consistent within its own created universe/world .

Any kind of "suspension of disbelief" a well crafted world may create, really goes out of the window once the story starts contradicting itself and/or begins to be driven largely by huge coincidences without any kind of underlaying reason at all. The new Star Trek movie sadly is nothing less than a disgrace in my eyes - to movies in general, not just Star Trek, comparing it to previous Trek movies is totally uneccessary - because you can not even really apply the labels of "good or bad story" to it...    it's a disjunct disfuntional mess that has more in common with the ramblings of an infant than with anything resembling a coherent story.

I would content that anyone arguing along the lines of "anything goes/is possible" because uh ...  its science fiction!!!" ... sadly... really didn't understand the concept of "sciene fiction" in the first place.

For starters: It's not a cheap excuse to deliver an utterly crappy story that doesn't make any kind of sense at all ... and pretend its "allright" because it's "Science Fiction".
« Last Edit: June 02, 2009, 05:03:58 am by Mikes »

 

Offline Meleardil

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Re: Are Battlestar Fans Trek fans?
Very well said, Mikes. EXACTLY my point! Thank you for phrasing it for me...I was just too coward modest to say out this plain and loud. :D
"I think it is impossible to really understand somebody, what they want, what they believe, and not love them the way they love themselves."
Speaker for the Dead

 

Offline Snagger

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Re: Are Battlestar Fans Trek fans?
Fair piont, Mike, but isn't it something that Trek has always been guilty of?  Just think of all the time paradox episodes they've done where everything gets reset to normal at the end of the episode.

 

Offline Mikes

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Re: Are Battlestar Fans Trek fans?
Fair piont, Mike, but isn't it something that Trek has always been guilty of?  Just think of all the time paradox episodes they've done where everything gets reset to normal at the end of the episode.

The reason the new movie outright sucks has nothing to do with the beliavability of its science, but rather with the believability of its characters and their motivations/actions.

That is a major difference.

The believability of the "science" in science fiction can be stretched quite a bit, as long as one stays at least somewhat consistent within the world one presents.
But characters, their actions and their motivations... well, once you stop caring about making that believable, your plot basically dissolves into incoherency and becomes a random selection of scenes that just happen to be presented in that order because the producers decided it to be that way, not because there is any kind of coherent or consistent storyline to follow.

And for me this is where any kind of "tension" or "suspension" evaporates instantly and gets replaced by eyerolling. As far as making movies goes, it's simply lazy and sloppy.

Once you cross that line.... you basically go into "lala" land, no matter if you talk about science-fiction, fantasy, or whatever. ;)

« Last Edit: June 02, 2009, 07:02:41 pm by Mikes »

 

Offline Meleardil

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Re: Are Battlestar Fans Trek fans?
To strengthen the arguments of Mikes: I can not enjoy any story with totally irrational characters and inconsistent events. Even the dumbest cartoon shall pass those criteria to fall into the "watchable" category.

Some minimal causality is required in story telling, all the characters (insane-evil included) shall follow their own motivations and have some personality.

I don't want to go into detailed arguing again, but it is very hard to find some areas where this movie had not had serious problems.
"I think it is impossible to really understand somebody, what they want, what they believe, and not love them the way they love themselves."
Speaker for the Dead

 

Offline Vidmaster

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Re: Are Battlestar Fans Trek fans?
It sucked, BASTA!

Also, they just completely lost their main character, the ship. In StarTrek, the vessel was always it's own character, an important asset of the story. Even the DS9 station was one, that's something the franchise always pulled off.

Not so here. The Enterprise is just a vehicle. Some car.
Devoted member of the Official Karajorma Fan Club (Founded and Led by Mobius).

Does crazy Software Engineering for a living, until he finally musters the courage to start building games for real. Might never happen.

 

Offline Felix 039

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Re: Are Battlestar Fans Trek fans?
I never liked Star Trek until I saw the recent movie about it. It amazed me  :D
Turning pros into noobs since 1992.
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Offline Meleardil

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Re: Are Battlestar Fans Trek fans?
Pervert... :P
"I think it is impossible to really understand somebody, what they want, what they believe, and not love them the way they love themselves."
Speaker for the Dead