[Tyrian]

I'm working on building another computer.  (For those of you that remember, yes, another one.)  I've hit a little bit of a wall though.  This is what I have so far:

CPU:  Intel Core i7 920
MoBo:  EVGA E760 Classified
Old MoBo:  EVGA E758-A1
RAM:  OCZ Gold 6GB (3 x 2GB)
GPU:  EVGA GeForce GTX 285  New EVGA GeForce GTX 285 (Old one was discontinued) More Betterer GTX 285 2GB Slightly Less More Betterer GTX 285 2GB
SSD:  OCZ Vertex Series 30GB
HDD:  Western Digital Caviar Black 640GB Western Digital Caviar Black 1TB
Case:  Antec 1200 Case Cooler Master HAF 932
PSU:  ZALMAN ZM1000-HP 1000W Continuous or Corsair CMPSU-1000HX

It's basically a Core i7 build, DDR3, GTX 285, etc.  I have two sticking points though.  First, and most important is the PSU.  I know 1000W is definitely overkill right now, but when I build, I try to incorporate as much future-proofing as possible.  (I hate incremental upgrades.)  Is there anything out there that might be better/less expensive?  I'd definitely like to stay with modular PSUs though.  Second is the heat sink for the CPU.  Plain and simple, I can't find anything that fits an LGA1366 socket.  The one I did find is too large for my case!  I can use the stock cooler, but this is a big investment and I want it to last as long as possible.

Final notes:  I know I'm missing CD/DVD burners, speakers, monitor, etc., but I'm going to look at that once I sort out the major items that go in the case.  Also, I know the SSD is vastly overkill, but I'm curious about them.  I've already researched the JMicron controller disaster and found that the Vertex SSDs don't use them.  They use the Indilinx Barefoot IDX22 chip.  Additionally, the Mobo is more expensive than I like, but the one that I was planning to get isn't carried by NewEgg anymore!

As usual, any other feedback is greatly appreciated.  Thanks!

EDIT:  Minor updates and I found the old board that I was looking at.

EDIT2:  Found a better hard drive.

EDIT3:

Other case items:
Optical Drive:  Sony Optiarc Pioneer Optical Drive  (In case the one I want isn't in stock at time of ordering.)
Floppy Drive:  Floppy Drive New Floppy Drive
Speakers:  Logitech S-220  A friend of mine has a set of these and they're actually quite nice.
CPU Cooler:  Noctua NH-U12P
Thermal Compound:  Tuniq TX-2

Total:  $1639.88 to $1739.88, depending on motherboard choice.

[colecampbell666]

That's what I'd pick myself.

[JGZinv]

Since I already had this discussion, I'll just copy it.

Well I don't have the rebate entirely back yet, but I
had to do some quick buying to get some rebates, so
I spec'd and bought all the parts for a new desktop.

Case - Cooler Master HAF 932 $150
Mobo - Asus Striker II Extreme $234.08
PSU - Corsair 650 watt $100
CPU - Core 2 Duo E8400 3GHz $168
GPU - EVGA GTX 275 Superclocked Edition w/ COD5 $270
RAM - 2GB Corsair DDR3 1600 $64
Cooler - Noctua NH-U12P $60
HD - Western Digital Caviar Black 500GB $65
Optical - Samsung SH-S223Q $30
Paste - Arctic Silver 5 $9
Shipping - Ground $8

Total $1158.08

I'm going to use an existing monitor. But I should have about $110
in rebates (40 of which I may have screwed up on). Plus there should
be some cashback from Microsoft, and I get COD5 and another game free.

Wow...that's awfuly a lot of $.
Here's what i think:

First - buying such expensive motherboard is not reasonable. I don't see anything interesting in Stiker unless you absolutely need very powerful SLI configuration. It's good for nothing else. but E8400 is no good for SLI either - you need 4 core then.
My recommendation for CPU - E8400 (to save money) or Q9550 (for powerful system), but i'd get Phenom II for AM3 socket (with DDR3) which beat both anyway and cost less while a lot newer/advanced or wait for i5 (september)

Mobo get Asus P5Q pro or delux on P45 for single GPU + possibility of adding 2nd one in future = 130$

While choise of videocard is good - it's a lot more expansive than GTX 260 216sp. Once GTX260 is overclocked it's about as fast as 275 so it's about money.

Ram - you don't realy need DDR3. Not for this line of processors with non-integrated memory controller - they won't benefit from it. Whatever they gain from increased bandwith is killed by latency (CL). I'd get DDR2 1066 if i were you it's a lot cheaper.

HDD - small, i'd recommend Samsung F1 - fastest 1TB HDD around.

I think buying this configuration right now is not very good idea. It's old. Core2 architecture outlived itself and is now will be replaced by i5 which is coming in august-september at about 200$ price. Also AMD Phenom II is giving intel hard times at the moment and surely beat E8400 while at similar cost so i'd suggest to wait.
I wanted to replace my E8400 for something with 4 cores but decided to wait for i5/newer Phenom IIs myself.

Wow...that's awfuly a lot of $.
Here's what i think:

First - buying such expensive motherboard is not reasonable. I don't see anything interesting in Stiker unless you absolutely need very powerful SLI configuration.

I didn't plan on going to SLI, or at least not for quite some time.
Originally I was leaning towards a MSI X58 Platinum SLI, or the Asus Wifi enabled mobo. The Msi lost the fight first when I decided to not use Core i7, and then when I found out it had ram and power issues. The Wifi model had better scores than the striker, but it was actually higher cost and didn't have accessories.

It's good for nothing else. but E8400 is no good for SLI either - you need 4 core then.

I beg to differ. Unless the game or program is designed for quad core, of which there are very few right now, at best you can see 15 to 30% increases, up to the 3rd core, and almost no gain with the 4th core in use. I used a 2.4 GHz C2D with half as much cache in the Sager laptop, and I was able to run Crysis or whatever just fine. But again, I wasn't planning on going with SLI to start with. Even with SLI, you're looking at about a 20% increase in overall frame rates, at the expense of a second card.

My recommendation for CPU - E8400 (to save money) or Q9550 (for powerful system), but i'd get Phenom II for AM3 socket (with DDR3) which beat both anyway and cost less while a lot newer/advanced or wait for i5 (september)

I originally wanted to go with the Core i7 920 Quad, but my amount of funds changed around and plus the i7 940 and extreme is being discontinued. Going with a regular Quad costs almost exactly the same as an i7. I'm not a big AMD fanboy, and the reviews clearly show Intel has the lead with processors, plus there's Win 7 virtualization support to think about.

Mobo get Asus P5Q pro or delux on P45 for single GPU + possibility of adding 2nd one in future = 130$

If I upgrade in the future, I'll probably just swap the mobo, cpu, and ram for whatever is good at the time. About a 400 upgrade, but I imagine the system will be ok for 2-3 years.

While choise of videocard is good - it's a lot more expansive than GTX 260 216sp. Once GTX260 is overclocked it's about as fast as 275 so it's about money.

Looking at the tests on the 260 vs. 275, the 275 beats the 260 by a fairly decent margin and is closer to the GTX 280 or 295 (I forget which). You actually have to use two 260s to get over and above a 275.
This 275 that I bought is already overclocked. If I went with the 260's in SLI, again that would be more expensive than a single 275, plus there would be more power draw, and I don't play any games that would need SLI. I'm more partial to small screens actually. Large resolutions hurt my eyes.

Ram - you don't realy need DDR3. Not for this line of processors with non-integrated memory controller - they won't benefit from it. Whatever they gain from increased bandwith is killed by latency (CL). I'd get DDR2 1066 if i were you it's a lot cheaper.

It was cheaper than Crucial's memory for the same motherboard.
Agreed on the rest of that though.

HDD - small, i'd recommend Samsung F1 - fastest 1TB HDD around.

I've been partial to WD drives really. I've only seen two fail in 10
years. and they were replaced without a lot of hassle. Granted I would prefer more storage, but my budget is tight. In the future I may just stick two 2 TB or four 1 TB drives in there.

I think buying this configuration right now is not very good idea. It's old. Core2 architecture outlived itself and is now will be replaced by i5 which is coming in august-september at about 200$ price. Also AMD Phenom II is giving intel hard times at the moment and surely beat E8400 while at similar cost so i'd suggest to wait.
I wanted to replace my E8400 for something with 4 cores but decided to wait for i5/newer Phenom IIs myself.

Most AMD based motherboards are Crossfire specific, and don't support SLI. Which while I'm not using SLI, I'd prefer it available. Every ATI product I've ever bought has been a pain in the butt with either support being dropped, or drivers. So Nvidia clearly wins in that category. I mentioned I was going for a Core i7, and the issues of quad above.

Didn't know an i5 series was coming out, but as a result the C2D has dropped some, and I really can't wait even to the end of the month. I need to get my computers reestablished so I get back to fixing things around here, my mod project, etc etc etc.

I didn't plan on going to SLI, or at least not for quite some time. Originally I was leaning towards a MSI X58 Platinum SLI, or the Asus Wifi enabled mobo. The Msi lost the fight first when I decided to not use Core i7, and then when I found out it had ram and power issues. The Wifi model had better scores than the striker, but it was actually higher cost and didn't have accessories.

X58 and all X serie is "SLI/Crossfire" chipsets. Just like those Nvidia ultra and SLI ones. You pay a lot more money to get 16x/16x PCI-E lines - that's what it all about and that's it. There's no point if you're not going for dual-GPU configuration. And yes - you don't need i7 - it's for serious tasks (i.e. work, graphics, render etc). Games won't benefit from 3 channel memory controller. What's important - unlike i7 - the i5 will have integrated PCI-E controller - should be very good for videocard performance.
And why integrated Wi-Fi worth extra 100$? Buy 15$ wi-fi card which will always be better than integrated one

I beg to differ. Unless the game or program is designed for quad core, of which there are very few right now, at best you can see 15 to 30% increases, up to the 3rd core, and almost no gain with the 4th core in use. I used a 2.4 GHz C2D with half as much cache in the Sager laptop, and I was able to run Crysis or whatever just fine. But again, I wasn't planning on going with SLI to start with. Even with SLI, you're looking at about a 20% increase in overall frame rates, at the expense of a second card.

I'd agree with you 1/2 year ago or 1 year...but not now and certainly not for the future. You probably haven't checked latest benchmarks. I monitor this situation and among titles that came to shelves this year 50-60% can use 4 cores. And among those you'll see in septemberit will be like 80% or more. If you interested - i can dig many tests for you to discuss it further.I was in doubt myself since my E8400 is nicely overclocked to 4.2Ghz, but i already feel like it's time is at end. Can live with it if you have it, but i wouldn't buy it atm. And SLI need 4 cores because while you can't multi-thread preparation of GPU specific Direct3D calculations with current DirectX10 - you can do it for 2 GPUs so all tests show great difference between 2 and 4 cores when using multi-gpu. And DX11 will kill 2 cores for sure.

I originally wanted to go with the Core i7 920 Quad, but my amount of funds changed around and plus the i7 940 and extreme is being discontinued. Going with a regular Quad costs almost exactly the same as an i7. I'm not a big AMD fanboy, and the reviews clearly show Intel has the lead with processors, plus there's Win 7 virtualization support to think about.

I7 940 is idiotic CPU for "strange" people. Paying 240$ more for...like 0,3 ghz? I'd overclock 920 to 3.5 with ease...

Well, you'd be surprised - I7 is beaten by AMD Phenom II in many (or even most) of the games. And it's 500-600$ worth of hardware vs 300$ or less. Check Tom's hardware guide. I'm no fan either, but why the hell i got to pay 300$ for C2Q 9550 if it's beaten by 200$ AMD processor? Let alone i7 which cost 300 + 240 per mobo. I buy stuff with best speed/money ratio and don't care who made it

If I upgrade in the future, I'll probably just swap the mobo, cpu, and ram for whatever is good at the time. About a 400 upgrade, but I imagine the system will be ok for 2-3 years.

I wouldn't be too sure. Total support for 4 cores and DX11 may kill it at the end of the year. i5 is coming in september and will cost starting at 200$ and it's 4 cores . It may sound harsh, but it's how i see it at the moment and that's what keeping me from buying C2Q. Though i must agree - if you realy need PC now - don't get C2Q, it's waste of money. It's like buying air conditioner at the end of the summer.You can then upgrade to C2Q when they'll be cheap once I5 is out.

Looking at the tests on the 260 vs. 275, the 275 beats the 260 by a fairly decent margin and is closer to the GTX 280 or 295 (I
forget which). You actually have to use two 260s to get over and above a 275.

You kidding, right? I wouldn't call 10-15%  that http://www.guru3d.com/article/geforce-gtx-275-review-test/11
Pretty close to me. Difference is explained by difference in clock. Set same clock and you get same result -3%. I'm not paying 100$ extra for 3% so i bought GTX260 about 2 months ago though money is not exatly most limiting factor in my life i must say... Just advise. Don't get me wrong - i like GTX275 because it has same emount of TDU as GTX280 and only bus width/memory is cut, but that doesn't affect anything (it's already too wide). but 100$ difference... if it's 50$ then yes - absolutely.

This 275 that I bought is already overclocked. If I went with the 260's in SLI, again that would be more expensive than a single 275, plus there would be more power draw, and I don't play any games that would need SLI. I'm more partial to small screens actually. Large resolutions hurt my eyes.

Oh, actualy two GTX260 in sli would beat ... from GTX275 with 70% difference in FPS.
Whatever factory OC they do is laughable. My GTX260 is working at 680MHz GPU (576 standard). Your GTX275 standard clock is 633 but is able to OC up to 730! So while i'm saying 100$ can't justify the difference, 60$ sure can Anyway - it's good GPU. I just don't upgrade to it because i wait for upcoming 40nm GTX300 or ATI if it will beat it.

I've been partial to WD drives really. I've only seen two fail in 10 years. and they were replaced without a lot of hassle. Granted I would prefer more storage, but my budget is tight. In the future I may just stick two 2 TB or four 1 TB drives in there.

I'd only use multi-HDDs if i were going for raid. Usualy 2 are good choise - twice the HDD speed! 4 HDD...oh my, that's awfuly lot of noise.

Most AMD based motherboards are Crossfire specific, and don't support SLI. Which while I'm not using SLI, I'd prefer it available. Every ATI product I've ever bought has been a pain in the butt with either support being dropped, or drivers. So Nvidia clearly wins in that category. I mentioned I was going for a Core i7, and the issues of quad above.

Yes, but same goes for intel. And i don't recommend dual-gpu configurations. I had it - didn't like it. There's micro-shutters, picture isn't as smooth as with single GPU at same FPS etc.

Didn't know an i5 series was coming out, but as a result the C2D has dropped some, and I really can't wait even to the end of
the month. I need to get my computers reestablished so I get back to fixing things around here, my mod project, etc etc etc.

I see. Then the only thing i can realy complain about is your MOBO which is SLI specific and is useless to you unless you SLI in future. Rest is fine, especialy E8400 if you need computer right now is good choise. At least it's sure not as useless investment as C2Q vs coming soon i5.

Yeah I just ran the numbers and I may have screwed up on some of the rebates.
But my minimum cashback/rebates should bring my total to 1072.54 (diff 84.95) and
if I could get the other rebates to drop through, I could be looking at 1025.77 (131.72).

I don't think I did too bad under the circumstances though.
I'll get another $10 off since my neighbor is going to buy the thermal paste,
since I'll also use it on his comp.

How stressed out you comp is greatly depends on how you're using it.
Most intensive things I'm doing right now is Photoshop, and trying to get into
3DS max. Games, which COD5 will be the newest game I've got when it comes in.

Yep, nothing too bad here - i'd say it's optimal configuration (except for mobo Razz) but hey - at least you got a lot of features and quality with it, btw - it's onboard sound is better than any .... you'd get with other mobo so...

Don't worry about photoshop and games - there's realy not too much difference and if you'll overclock your E8400 to 3.8 (quite easy i'd say) it will beat many 4 cores thanks to clocks anyway. 4.0 beats most for sure. Photoshop CS4 uses your GPU for accelerating all stuff btw so it only cares about CPU when you do stuff like RAW>Jpeg conversion.
The only thing you'll lack 4 cores among mentioned is 3D max...rendering is something where 4 or more cores rock, no exceptions. But mostly when rendering, not when working.

[colecampbell666]

He's looking at a more powerful box, with i7. It's a different beast.

[JGZinv]

That may indeed be so... but most of the come back comments apply.
I shouldn't need to point out which.

Now, my cooler has a LGA1336 socket kit if you get the right one.
It's also one of the best coolers reviewed anywhere, and darn quiet.

Corsair makes a nice power supply.

The HAF case may be worth a look into.

My optical drive may be worth a look into.

Also check into Microsoft Live Search cashback, it applies to eBay and Newegg, among other places.
You can use that on top of all the other discounts.

The SSD I wouldn't bother with until you can find 300 GB for about $120.
A 7200 RPM drive at a large size would be more practical. At least get a small one or something you
can return. It's a hard drive, that sits there, and hopefully doesn't mess up. Not a great deal to "experience" with
them.

[Tyrian]

I should have been clearer with what I meant to do with the SSD.  I intend to use it as a high-speed pseudo-cache.  I'm going to install my OS and whatever game I happen to be playing currently to that, keeping my data on the (hopefully) much more "durable" HDD.  The idea is to make disk accesses nearly transparent to the user.

I went and found that cooler that you mentioned.  That's actually the one that I mentioned in my first post.  It's too tall for the Antec 1200.  I've got a couple of other cases (one from RAIDMAX, and another that's flew out of my head, may have been the Storm Sniper, but I'm not sure) lined up though, so I'll have to do some rechecking of dimensions.  One guy said he got that Noctua to work in the 1200, but he had to do some case modding, which I'm not equipped to do.  I'll also check out the HAF case.

Optical drives, etc., are sort of N/A right now.  I'm more concerned with the "primary" guts of the system right now. 

[JGZinv]

I might be asking why are you stuck on using the Antec 1200 ?
I'd be going for maximum cooling with an i7 system, as that should be the
second most important job of a case, the first being to fit everything inside itself.


Cooler master just came out with a mid size ATX version of the HAF too, if
you're interested in something smaller.

All my parts will be here tomorrow, so I might be able to check on that cooler size issue.
I got the 775 socket version, which doesn't have the extra fan or mounting bracket for the i7.

[Tyrian]

The HAF is much nicer than the Antec 1200.  It's a good 0.6" wider too.  Plus it's got a 3.5" bay for floppies.  (Call me old fashioned...)

Could you check out that cooler issue too?  I'd appreciate the feedback on that.  It would definitely resolve the issue there.  I'm also going to take a closer look at Corsair's PSUs.

[JGZinv]

I just installed a Corsair 450 watt and I'm getting a 650 (hopefully not too small) for my rig.

They come with some zip ties, the cables are all wrapped in a mesh material for better airflow,
you've got every cable type imaginable, the PSU looks nice and doesn't even get hot to the touch.
The drive power plugs also come with tabs, which make inserting and taking out the plugs a LOT easier
than PSUs of old. That should be standard on every power supply.

One odd thing is that it exhausts into the case, not out the back. What I finally figured out, was that
the design is so that it sucks cool air in through the PSU then runs it over the other equip, so assuming
you have a sensible cooling system, all the heat is thrown out of the case. You're not sucking hot air through
the PSU, then out the back creating a heat trap at the top of the case. The larger fan, being on the bottom, also helps lower the noise.
I heard the system CPU fan on the system I was fixing, not the PSU.

If I get the parts tomorrow, and if I don't have to play host to some folks, I'll have it built by Friday night.
So I can have a response on the cooler by then.

[High Max]

.

[JGZinv]

Canned air... lots of canned air...

[Mongoose]

I find that compressed air cans, as one would expect from a thermodynamic sense, start to suck (i.e., not blow) as soon as they get very cold...which happens very quickly.  When I was recently cleaning out my family's old horribly-dusty system, I had far more success with using a hair dryer with the heat turned off and blasting that all over the inside of the case.  There's probably some risk or other of static with that method, but that system was a piece of junk anyway.

[JGZinv]

Max - I wouldn't go vac'ing boards either with your household vac.
Some folks have Bissel's or Dysons which are quite high powered.

You might just suck something off a board... and it won't be dust.


The system I just fixed with the PSU, probably one of the most dusty systems
I've ever seen. Emptied a full size can of air into that thing and ended up wiping it down with
a microfiber towel.

You can make filters for the fans... which I'm contemplating since I've got a cat that doesn't
know when to back off. What I really need is an external PSU with an mini electrified fence.

[Fury]

It's just my opinion but I think Phenom II X4 with AM2+ motherboard and DDR2 has better performance/price ratio than i7, X58 motherboard and DDR3.

And I would drop the SSD, it is not worth the excessive price premium. SSD's are not really ready for prime time yet. The current top issue with SSD's is their severe performance degradation when they've been used long enough for each cell to have been written to at least once. When that happens, write performance drops significantly when a cell needs to be emptied of data before new data is written.

Also, those power supplies has so over the top wattage rating that I can't but help thinking something is wrong with them. Don't look at wattages, look at rail voltages.

[High Max]

|

[JGZinv]

Swifters would also be a bad idea... static r us....

Fury -

#  Supports ATX12V v2.2 standard and older ATX12V 2.01 spec
# Ultra-quiet 120mm (140mm on TX750W and TX850W) double ball-bearing fan delivers excellent airflow
# 80%+ energy efficiency at 20%, 50% and 100% load condition for less heat generation and lower energy bill
# 99% Active Power Factor Correction provides clean and reliable power to your system
# Universal AC input 90~264V automatically scans and detects the correct voltage
# Dedicated single +12V rail offers maximum compatibility with latest components
# Over Current/Voltage/Power Protection, Under Voltage Protection, and Short Circuit Protection provide maximum safety to your critical system components.
# High quality Japanese capacitors provide uncompromised performance and reliability.
# Extra long cables support full tower size chassis.

The 1000 watt Corsair he's looking at uses a two rail design, the 750/800 line uses three I believe.

How many do you want?

[Fury]

Actually a single 12volt rail without 240VA limit is more efficient than multiple 12volt rails with limits because power gets trapped within under-utilized rails. For example, if you have two 12volt rails rated 18amps and one of the rails only use 10amps, remaining 8 are wasted and cannot be used.

[JGZinv]

T - got everything except my optical and mobo today.

First off I have to say the HAF is huge... it's a solid case and
it's certainly geared for maximum airflow.  The side panels could
be easier to get on/off though. The way they are grooved is weird.
Lots and lots of fans, features and otherwise. Wish they would have continued
the black paint to the inside of the case. The powder coat ends at the side doors
on the inside, which looks kinda cheap. With all the fans and coolers
in this rig, it'll be a miracle if it overheats. PSU might melt from the strain,
but everything else would be fine.

As to the cooler, unless the mount makes extra height, or
your mobo is 2+ inches high off the case wall, I don't think it'll be a
issue. Mine seems to fit just with a "shove it in there and see" look.

Can't tell till I have the mobo for sure though.


I'd also mention that this is the most sloppy packaging I have ever seen Newegg ship me
products in. The boxes were almost untaped, they had lots of warp.... when the UPS guy dropped
them (why oh why?) the little geek inside me cried out in terror for my components. Looked
like someone had tried to break in the box and get at something.

They seem capable of shipping you individual items, but when it comes to $1000 in parts, they can't
spare $10 to really wrap the stuff in decent boxes?

[Tyrian]

Also, those power supplies has so over the top wattage rating that I can't but help thinking something is wrong with them. Don't look at wattages, look at rail voltages.

Actually a single 12volt rail without 240VA limit is more efficient than multiple 12volt rails with limits because power gets trapped within under-utilized rails. For example, if you have two 12volt rails rated 18amps and one of the rails only use 10amps, remaining 8 are wasted and cannot be used.

So what sort of rail specs should I be looking at then, given what I want to power?  Also, I nixed the SSD.  I redid my budget numbers and found that it pushed the price too high. 

@JGZinv -- I might wait for your final verdict on the cooler fit.  Let me know how it goes.  Also, it's good to know the HAF has good cooling, but based on your statement, does it have a problem keeping the power supply cool enough?

[JGZinv]

Right now my only beef with the HAF is that it's not designed with Corsair's
funky style of PSU. This meaning that you have two ways of dealing with things.

1. You place the psu in the bottom of the case, right side up, and the fan vents
out the bottom of the case.

2. Remove the top case fan (big) and put the psu where it normally is put
at the top. At this time though, I wonder about the PSU size vs. the Noctua
heatsink.

The reason for all of this, is that the screw holes for the case at the bottom mount,
won't match up with the Corsair if it's flipped upside down so the fan vents "up."

It's not an insurmountable problem, if I really got irked I'd dremel the case and put the
psu in the bottom, top side down like I want.

I will say this much for the Corsair though, it is beyond whisper quiet.
I hooked it up to another mobo just to test it, I couldn't tell it was on.
I even put my ear to the psu casing... and still didn't hear anything.
Had to look at the fan, to see that it was spun up to tell a difference.