Author Topic: Not again.....!!! :(  (Read 7279 times)

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Offline Zeronet

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IIRC Israel didnt want to Six Day War. Um the French resistance and palastinian terrorists are not the same thing, totally not the same thing.
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Offline Styxx

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Originally posted by Zeronet
The French resistance and palastinian terrorists are not the same thing, totally not the same thing.


Indeed. If the French Resistance killed innocent civilians just because they were german, they so definately weren't good guys - and if you're not one of the good guys...
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Offline Blue Lion

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To my knowledge, the French hit things like bridges and railways, things of military signifigance

 

Offline Styxx

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Originally posted by Blue Lion
To my knowledge, the French hit things like bridges and railways, things of military signifigance



And that's exactly my point... ;)
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point is, nobody really knows the whole story.  this whole thing goes back thousands of years.  undoubtedly, there are those that want the violence to continue, that way they can stay in power.  Both sides have done dirt.  Theres no easy answer.  All I can say is that I feel for the Israelis having to deal with the terror attacks, but at the same time, I feel for the palestinians too.  In my unqualified opinion,  the state of Israel has no business being where it is.  As I understand it, after world war two, britain and the US decided that after 6 million Jews were murdered, they deserved a homeland, which was a noble sentiment.  Unfortunately, there were people living on the land where they chose to live.  That and the fact that there are people on the planet that have suffered far more.  Stalin killed 10 million of his own people, yet the russian peasants didnt get their own country.  Estimates run as high as 100 million death in the african slave trade but there is no United Negro States of America.  The palestinians were small enough that we could bully them and take their land, and for that I agree with their anger.  However, their methods are flawed.  Point is, the whole setup is flawed, and as long as there is a state of Isreal, there will be fighting.

Sad but true

 
coming from Ernies house of whoop-ass is a sardonically accurate summary of mid east history

So let us first turn back the hands of time, to when life first formed here on Earth. Deep in the muck and protoplasmic slime, we see two groups of single celled organisms. Those from Group-A begin throwing microscopic flecks of stardust at Group-B, who in return fire back with microscopic rubber bullets. Then a cell from Group-A absorbs a bit of methane gas, migrates over to Group-B and promptly explodes, killing not only himself but mortally wounding several Group-B cells in the process. The remaining Group-A cells rejoice, as Group-B cells plan a counterattack after some of their cells learn they can become airborne.

These puddles of muck and slime will, after continental shift, become the lands we know as Israel and the West Bank, and yes I suspect the violence has been going on that long.

Okay now let’s spin our clocks ahead to like the 0 A.D. timeframe. In thirty words or less, Jews were enslaved by various civilizations most of which were settled in the Middle East and whose roots can be traced as the ancestors of the many Arabic countries we know today.

(You read as: Arabs enslaved the Jews since the word "go").

This you-enslave-me-but-you’ll-never-win-our-hearts-and-minds relationship went on for a bazillion ****ing generations until eventually the Jews fled their “Promised Land” and found new places to live where they weren't persecuted, and the Arabs absorbed the vacated areas.

Now spin the time dial forward to the late 1930's. The Jews have settled more or less all over Eastern Europe. Enter a short little man with a mustache and a big gas bill, and with the conclusion of WWII we also see the conclusion of some 6,000,000 more Jews. Well, at the end of WWII, the powers that be (the US along with Britain, the Soviet Union, and France -- hahaha just kidding about France) held the Jews up and said, "Holy **** you poor people, you've had the living **** kicked out of you for some few thousand years or so. Tell us where would like to live in complete sanctuary for the rest of your days?"

As I recall, they narrowed it down to some place in Africa (where is inconsequential now so if you know don't tell me I don't give a ****) and some land in the Middle East, which we now know as Israel. Well it doesn't take Colombo to figure out where they chose, and the US more or less said to the Palestinians, "Hey nice place now get the **** out." The Palestinians were pushed out, and the Jews returned to the land they held way back when people wrote on walls with rocks.

Presto-whiz-bango, the State of Israel was officially born. Queue bands, music, banners, food, etc, etc, etc.

Now the Israelis -- as they were now officially called -- said to themselves, "Okay we've been the party *****es for everyone pretty much since the beginning of recorded time, especially with this Holocaust thing, so we have to make sure this will never happen again." And so it was decreed that every Israeli citizen, both male and female, would spend time in the military so everyone knew how to defend their civilization. So they trained and trained and prepared and prepared, all to insure the persecution of their kind would never happen on such a monumental scale again.

Now spin the clock forward to 1967, and we find Israeli surrounded like they are today - pretty much by angry Arabs -- Syria to the North, Jordan to the East, and Egypt to the South. Israel is bordered by the Mediterranean Sea on the West for those of you geographically challenged. Well the president of Egypt at the time decided that he didn't want Israel to exist any more, so he picked up his Bat-phone and dialed all those Arab states surrounding Israel, and called upon them to wage one of their Holy Wars to, “rid the world of the Zionists pigs." (“Zionist” being a cool catch phrase for a Jew).

Israel, being prepared this time and determined not to be beaten like a rented mule, deciding they would be having none of this and popped the top on the “Extra Strength Can of Whoop Ass”. Thus commenced the "Six Day War".

Why’d they call it the Six Day War, you ask? Because that's how long it took Israel to beat the ****ing snot out of all three of their attackers. Six ****ing days. You think we whipped Iraq or Afghanistan's ass quick? Hell no. June 5th, 1967 Israel beat the **** out of Egypt, the Jordanians on the 7th, and finally the Syrians on the 9th.

So by the time the 11th rolled around, the Israeli soldiers were back in streets of Tel Aviv doing the, "We Kicked Your ****ing Arab Ass Dance", having captured lands known as the West Bank (where the Palestinians are living), the Gaza Strip (from the Egyptians), and the Golan Heights (from the Syrians). Thus the establishment of the Israelis as people not to be ****ed with and their, "If you ain't Jewish, you ain't ****," attitude.

It's important to note here that in the West Bank are Jerusalem, Bethlehem, and a snot load of other very religious places that hold high regard in both Judaism and Islam. And there’s no separation between them either, both Jewish and Islamic holy places all mixed in together to a “Berlin Wall” type solution just wouldn’t work.

These spankings kept things quiet save for a few skirmishes in the 1970's, until 1982 when Israel decided to lay the pimp-smack down on Lebanon. The key thing to remember here is one of the commanders in the Israeli forces at the time was a General Ariel Sharon (name ring a bell?), who not only orchestrated many of the attacks on the Lebanese army, but also is accused by many Arab nations of ordering the slaughter of a **** load of Lebanese civilians.

Now, whether or not this slaughter actually happened -- both sides claim opposite stories and I don't ****ing know who to believe to be honest -- doesn't really make a ****ing difference. The point is the Arabs believe he did and nobody, but nobody, is going to change their minds. In their eyes he's a butcher who kills women and children, period, end of discussion.

Again there were a few little skirmishes in the 1990’s, but again nothing too major and all is quiet for a while until the year 2000 (see a twenty’ish year cycle here?). The existing cease fire between the Arabs and the Israelis was threadbare after all this time, and it's now that the retired Ariel Sharon makes the dumbass decision to visit one of the Jew’s most religious places (good) but does so on one of the most holy days in the Islamic faith (bad). The Arabs go ****ing nuts withthe return of "the butcher", riots start, bullets fly, and the rest we can get off CNN.

So for eighteen months now, it's been Arabs throw rocks, Israelis shoot bullets. Arabs shoot bullets, Israelis use tanks. Arabs make suicide bombs, Israelis launch planes. Then things cool down for a few days, maybe a week, and we start all over again with Arabs throwing rocks, Israelis shooting, and we're ****ing back to square one.

In the past few weeks we've seen a few dashes of hope that this whole Middle East violence thing might be wrapping up. The Saudi peace plan looked most promising in my opinion, but even that's doomed to fail. Why? Well, the deal is Israel gives back the land they occupied back from the Six Day War -- a big bone of contention for many Arab countries -- and in return Israel will “officially be recognized” by those same Arab nations.

Riiiiiight. So that “recognition” will last about three to four weeks, and then one of the Arabic nations will snub their nose at either Israel or Ariel Sharon or both, and the rest will inevitably follow suit. Israel will then cry foul, the US will agree, and thus we’ll be secured for another twenty years in the eyes of Arab nations everywhere as, “the American capitalist dog, masters of the puppet Sharon and his Zionist regime.”

Then one of the militant Palestinian groups - not happy with getting their land back but will instead want to push the issue to a boiling point, will throw a rock at Israeli border guards. This will of course lead to the Israelis shooting back with rubber bullets (sound familiar?), which will lead to more rocks being thrown until an Israeli soldier gets seriously wounded, then the real bullets come in and, well, I guess I don’t have to tell you the rest. You already know it, now don’t you?

Look I’d love to hold your hand and sing “Kum’bi’yah” with the rest of your friends -- I’d like to see peace in the Middle East as much as anyone else, I’d get to travel again, gas prices would go down, and these people would be off my ****ing news -- but the simple fact is it’s never, ever, ever, ever going to happen. Never. Ever. Period. The best anyone is ever going to do is orchestrate a ceasefire which will be doomed to fail before it even begins. The fires of hatred glow brighter here than in any other place on earth, and there’s no politician or peacemaker with gloves thick enough to handle it for more than a few seconds at a time.

 

Offline Styxx

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I don't care for the cause, if the people who fight for it use terrorist tactics. Terrorists of any and all kinds deserve to suffer the most horrid and painful death ever imagined...
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Offline Sandwich

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Quote
Originally posted by NegspectahDek
...but the simple fact is it’s never, ever, ever, ever going to happen. Never. Ever. Period. The best anyone is ever going to do is orchestrate a ceasefire which will be doomed to fail before it even begins.


I can't say I like all the cursing (where the heck did the language filter go?), but I can, on the most part, agree with the sentiment, especially the part I quoted. I've said plenty on this subject, so I'll just end with a favorite quote of mine:

Quote
by Golda Meir, Israel's Prime Minister, 1969-74 (during the Yom Kippur War), concerning the Palestinians:
“I can forgive you for killing my sons, but I cannot forgive you for forcing me to kill your sons.”


:(
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i just cut and paste

 

Offline Shrike

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Boom.

I sure as hell wouldn't want to live there.  The geology is pretty boring, although there's some interesting continental transforms.  Talk about dull.  Hell, about the only mineral resource there is sand.
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Offline Crazy_Ivan80

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Quote
Originally posted by NegspectahDek
point is, nobody really knows the whole story.  this whole thing goes back thousands of years.  undoubtedly, there are those that want the violence to continue, that way they can stay in power.  Both sides have done dirt.  Theres no easy answer.  All I can say is that I feel for the Israelis having to deal with the terror attacks, but at the same time, I feel for the palestinians too.  In my unqualified opinion,  the state of Israel has no business being where it is.  As I understand it, after world war two, britain and the US decided that after 6 million Jews were murdered, they deserved a homeland, which was a noble sentiment.  Unfortunately, there were people living on the land where they chose to live.  That and the fact that there are people on the planet that have suffered far more.  Stalin killed 10 million of his own people, yet the russian peasants didnt get their own country.  Estimates run as high as 100 million death in the african slave trade but there is no United Negro States of America.  The palestinians were small enough that we could bully them and take their land, and for that I agree with their anger.  However, their methods are flawed.  Point is, the whole setup is flawed, and as long as there is a state of Isreal, there will be fighting.

Sad but true


Obviously you don't know history. :rolleyes:

The whole story goes back to roman times when the Jews were expelled (mostly) out of Palestina due to them being stubborn. After that, the jews still living in the area were quite peaceful, even uder islamic or Ottoman rule (the even had a chief rabbi under the Ottomans apparantly)
When under the British, the Brits allowed Jewish migration into the area... up to a certain extent after which they became rather opposed to the idea. by that time it was too late though and in 1948 BOTH Israel and Palestine were formed as independent states by the UN! The partition was done along the lines of legal land-ownership (Jewish settlers had bought the lands of Muslim landowners that didn't want the land).
What happens next? The arabs aren't happy and vow to destroy the new Jewish state and urge the Palestinian to leave the land only to return a few weeks later when Israel is destroyed (I'm not saying the Israel didn't urge some of them to leave too). But, the holy warriors of Islam lose... bigtime and Israel takes more land. Which is their reward for winning a war.
Anyway, 1967 turns around and the Arab states have another go at it but lose again. Isreal occupies the rest (IIRC) and we end up in current situation after a while.

You can say what you want but Israel has every right to be there, just like Palestine has every right to be there. Both peoples will have to accept that the area will contain two independent nations. And may I remind you that by your logic many other nations would exist either. Least of the US, Turkey, France, UK, and so on and so forth. Every single people has moved over the last 10.000 years so your point is not valid.

Yeah, Stalin killed a lot of his own people but the Russian farmers didn't need a homeland because they already have one. Haven't you seen RUSSIAN FEDERATION been printed on every worldmap since 1991, and USSR or Russian Empire before that?

100 million deaths in African slavetrade? Get real, there weren't that many Africans on the continent during that time to begin with. And the Africans will do just fine once they can sort their mess out (okay, the West had a hand in it but is not to blame solely)

The palestines were and are abused by their fellow Arabs. It's as simple as that. Israel won't be destroyed and if it ever is there won't be a living soul left in Palestine either. You can bet on it. Like i said: both nations will have to live together.
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Offline Stryke 9

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Quote
Originally posted by Zeronet


:wtf: :wtf: Israel is the one suffering from terrorism.


Depends on whether your definition of "terrorism" is based more on the murder of civilians or whether a person has a better explosives guidance system than a 16-year-old. Both sides seem to be under governments that are essentially "terrorist", lead by the howling, murderous extremist minority. If you wanna get technical, Israeli troops have killed far more Palestinian innocents than the Palestinians have killed Israelis, but that's just another silly way of defining who's worse- were the Palestinians in possession of the sort of weaponry the Israeli army has, and the Israelis given no recourse but bricks and kamikaze attacks, roles would be almost precisely reversed. Two armed axe murderers locked in a room with each other and a good dozen unarmed civilians who just happened to be around- who's gonna say what's justice?

Particularly since the only one capable of making any real judgement on the matter is that third murderer standing on a convieniently inaccessible balcony with a sniper rifle. Guess who.

 

Offline Zeronet

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Definition of a terrorist? A palastinian suicide bomber who walks into a hotel and blows himself up or pilots a plane into the side of a building, deliberating targetting and killing civilians!
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Offline Stryke 9

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As opposed to an Israeli helicopter pilot or soldier? You could not have possibly both have read my post and know anything at all about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, to just post the same old thing again. Think before you post, OK? It saves me so much time and despair for humanity's essential ability to grasp basic concepts, even ones antithetical to what they have thought previously.

 

Offline Zeronet

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Your post makes no sense, going on about Israeli suicide bombers(as if Jews would do that), be happy that i decided to dignifie it with a response.  An Israeli solider is defending his country, by shooting the terrorists, protecting civilians, crossfire is unavoidable. Anyhow this thread is getting ugly, so it might be best to close it.
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Offline Stryke 9

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I never said a single thing about Israeli suicide bombers. You're refusing to think on purpose- it's something people seem to do a lot when they can't make a point. The Israeli soldiers have killed MANY more times the number of civilians Palestinians have. They've killed very few "terrorists". What's more, the Sharon government isn't protecting **** by furthering the feeling of oppression and need for violent uprising among the Palestinians. You don't "protect" people by whipping their already bitter enemies into a murderous, obsessive, suicidal hatred. You do it by treating those enemies like humans- and slaughtering them like cattle and penning them up lioke sheep is easily the worst way to do that. If Israeli sodiers are somehow targeting "terrorist" Palestinian freedom fighters and just happen to have such terrible aim that they've killed practically every civilian they've come across, perhaps they shouldn't have guns.

 

Offline Zeronet

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Yes you did, going on about a reversal of roles etc etc etc.
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Offline LtNarol

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the state of Israel:

During WWII, a scientist discovered someway to make atomic power more potent and gave that knowledge to the Brittish.  In return, the Brittish asked him what he wanted, and he asked for a homeland for Jews.

The Palistinians (sp) were living in the area chosen for the Jewish homeland and were promptly kicked out by the Brittish.  Very few countries would take in these Palistinian refugees so they were more or less left without a home, not to mention their traditional territories.

The Brittish eventually had to back down due to certain problems (economics failure if i remember correctly) and the United States took up Israel's cause.

For decades the area has been torn by terrorist attacks, be it suicide bombings or walk in shootings.  Israel is not the only one suffering from terrorist attacks however.

Also keep in mind that what in our eyes might be a terrorist is a freedom fighter fighting for a noble cause in someone else's.  I may not agree with terrorism, much less support it, but you have to see where these guys are coming from.  

To the Jewish, they have been mistreated since the beginning of time, from enslavement to the kind of mass genocide we saw in WWII; they have longed for a home and now that they have one, they're not about to give it up.

For the Palistinians (sp), they have been kicked off their homes and sent elsewhere.  They want their homes back, and they wont get it through diplomacy as Israel will not give up any of its holdings, nor would the US or the UN back up the Palistinians since they are supporting Israel.  This leaves them with very few options, none of which are very pretty.

Therefore, whats happening down there is tragic, but it is no one country's fault and peace for those living there will be a long time in coming.

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« Last Edit: March 27, 2002, 06:57:39 pm by 528 »

 

Offline Stryke 9

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Zero: I said that were the roles reversed, the Palestinians would have butchered more innocent bystanders than the Israelis, and thus judging the conflict by numbers was just as irrelevant as by method of butchering said bystanders. Seriously, if you're just going to intentionally not get something as clear as what I posted, just don't respond. You won't look dumb. Someone else may actually BE able to think past the whole I-didn't-think'of-it-already-so-it-must-not-make-sense bit, and be able to argue. You're just annoying me and making yourself look silly right now.

 

Offline Zeronet

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Told you it was getting ugly. People are becomming petty and offencive.
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