Author Topic: Not again.....!!! :(  (Read 7235 times)

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Offline LtNarol

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Quote
Originally posted by Zeronet
Told you it was getting ugly. People are becomming petty and offencive.

Thats because this is such a controvercial issue and one most people feel very deeply about.  Personally i pity everyone down there, can't we all just get along? :nod:

:D

 

Offline Stryke 9

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Petty and offensive? I'm doing my best not to be, considering you're running into problems reading my post a 12-year-old doesn't notice. I'm sure you're a very smart and interesting person on many things- in fact, I know you are- but you've got what is known as "crimestop" by dystopia theorists. You can't grasp concepts that run against your currently ingrained beliefs, and fail to see the logic in any opposing argument. It's a psychological problem that runs rampant throughout history, and one whose only known curative is recognition and self-policing for a time, until one can think uninhibited again. Frankly, I lack the patience to deal with you on it, but I'm doing what I can to avoid getting utterly pissed off by this extremely circular argument. What can I say? I like getting somewhere, and get cranky when I'm not.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2002, 07:11:05 pm by 262 »

 

Offline Shrike

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Just for reference purposes, I am watching this thread......
WE ARE HARD LIGHT PRODUCTIONS. YOU WILL LOWER YOUR FIREWALLS AND SURRENDER YOUR KEYBOARDS. WE WILL ADD YOUR INTELLECTUAL AND VERNACULAR DISTINCTIVENESS TO OUR OWN. YOUR FORUMS WILL ADAPT TO SERVICE US. RESISTANCE IS FUTILE.

 

Offline Zeronet

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They've both done things that are wrong, but during my lifetime, all i,ve seen are pictures of israeli teenagers dead, after a "freedom" figher blew themselves up. I doubt the Israeli's will tolerate the lastest attack, they tolerated the others because they sought the cease fire but the terrorists wouldnt listen. Is arafat really in control of his people?
Got Ether?

 

Offline Shrike

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Arafat is useless.  If they canned him, things might actually proceed.

But the Isrealis aren't the only people with dead kids.  There are innocent palestinians that got killed as well.  Isreali bullets are no more discerning that any one else's.
WE ARE HARD LIGHT PRODUCTIONS. YOU WILL LOWER YOUR FIREWALLS AND SURRENDER YOUR KEYBOARDS. WE WILL ADD YOUR INTELLECTUAL AND VERNACULAR DISTINCTIVENESS TO OUR OWN. YOUR FORUMS WILL ADAPT TO SERVICE US. RESISTANCE IS FUTILE.

 
Quote
Originally posted by Zeronet
They've both done things that are wrong, but during my lifetime, all i,ve seen are pictures of israeli teenagers dead, after a "freedom" figher blew themselves up. I doubt the Israeli's will tolerate the lastest attack, they tolerated the others because they sought the cease fire but the terrorists wouldnt listen. Is arafat really in control of his people?


thats why you shouldnt rely on just the news for the news.  It tends to be one sided

and Ivan, I was giving examples.  You can twist what I say to make me look ignorant, but whatever.  How specifically do you know that there werent 100 million africans on the continent.  i dont recall any census being taken.  and how do you know that number applied to just africa?  what about the slaves in the US? or the caribbean.  In Haiti, the average lifespan of a slave was 3 years from the day they stepped of the boat.  Either way, I said the ESTIMATES go that high.  Never said it was firm

Some people will do or say anything to downplay that part of history

 

Offline an0n

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The simple fact is that Israel and Palestine are at war. Normally a very straight forward affair of killing each other becomes complicated by the laughable state of the Palestinian armed forces. The Palestinians resort to suicide bombings because they lack most other offensive capabilities and as such the conflict is classed as terrorism as opposed to a war. Regardless of fire-power, beliefs, political realtions and ideology, when two countries fight, it's a war.

I'm really becoming concerned at how everyone differentiates between military and civillian targets. If you crush the military then the civillians get called up to fight and die anyway so what's so wrong about firing on civillians? The point of war is to utterly crush the enemy, not take their land and have decades of protests and political *****ing by the conquered people. If someone ****s with you (especially in a democracy) then everyone who serves them becomes a legitimate target regardless of age, creed or beliefs. You think a 90 year old man with arthritis wouldn't blow a soldiers head off to protect his land?

Somewhere, over the years, the point of war was forgotten. It has been gradually fading away since the British decided that standing men in a line and having them shoot at each other (without trying to dodge or hide from enemy fire) was a good batttle tactic. In war there are only two thing you need to remember; Stay alive and kill everyone who ain't fighting with you.
"I.....don't.....CARE!!!!!" ---- an0n
"an0n's right. He's crazy, an asshole, not to be trusted, rarely to be taken seriously, and never to be allowed near your mother. But, he's got a knack for being right. In the worst possible way he can find." ---- Yuppygoat
~-=~!@!~=-~ : Nodewar.com

 

Offline Shrike

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The problem with that, is that not much is solved.....  A war is an argument writ large.  If at the end of the day you can both end up agreeing with one another, everyone's happy.  Like the allies and germany after WWII.

Now, if we went and massacred every person we could find in Germany, we would be worse than the Nazis and would be setting the stage for the exact same **** that's going down in the middle east.
WE ARE HARD LIGHT PRODUCTIONS. YOU WILL LOWER YOUR FIREWALLS AND SURRENDER YOUR KEYBOARDS. WE WILL ADD YOUR INTELLECTUAL AND VERNACULAR DISTINCTIVENESS TO OUR OWN. YOUR FORUMS WILL ADAPT TO SERVICE US. RESISTANCE IS FUTILE.

  

Offline an0n

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If we massacred the Germans after WW1 there wouldn't have been any Nazi's.
"I.....don't.....CARE!!!!!" ---- an0n
"an0n's right. He's crazy, an asshole, not to be trusted, rarely to be taken seriously, and never to be allowed near your mother. But, he's got a knack for being right. In the worst possible way he can find." ---- Yuppygoat
~-=~!@!~=-~ : Nodewar.com

 

Offline Shrike

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Yeah, and then we would have been the biggest hippocrites and mass-murderers the world had ever seen.

Nazis < killing all of germany
WE ARE HARD LIGHT PRODUCTIONS. YOU WILL LOWER YOUR FIREWALLS AND SURRENDER YOUR KEYBOARDS. WE WILL ADD YOUR INTELLECTUAL AND VERNACULAR DISTINCTIVENESS TO OUR OWN. YOUR FORUMS WILL ADAPT TO SERVICE US. RESISTANCE IS FUTILE.

 

Offline an0n

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The only reason that would be considered wrong is because of all this stupid 'Don't kill your enemies' bull ****. Hell, you can't even torture POW's anymore (officially).
"I.....don't.....CARE!!!!!" ---- an0n
"an0n's right. He's crazy, an asshole, not to be trusted, rarely to be taken seriously, and never to be allowed near your mother. But, he's got a knack for being right. In the worst possible way he can find." ---- Yuppygoat
~-=~!@!~=-~ : Nodewar.com

 

Offline LtNarol

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We dont commit genocide or torture for a reason, its inhumane and we at this point in human development in terms of civilization should be above that.  The fact that you feel the murdering of innocent civilians as correct due to your view that they are potential enemies is to say the least scary.  If you were a farmer just tending your land one day when a few tanks rolled in, how would you like to have your head blown off with the rest of your family just because you were in the wrong place at the wrong time?  You have done nothing your whole life to hurt anyone, and all of the sudden you are killed, murdered, because you were living in a country invaded by another.  The object of war is not to kill all those who oppose you, but to stop them from opposing you.  The best way to do this is to target key military targets: radar stations, airstrips, ammo dumps, stating areas, military bases, naval ports.  You simply dont just go around shooting random people just for the heck of it, such is the conduct of a savage, and we are better people than that.  As much as i'd like to say that we are above war period, that would clearly be a lie as is proven by the recent events over the past 2 decades in the middle east.

 

Offline an0n

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Quote
You simply dont just go around shooting random people just for the heck of it, such is the conduct of a savage, and we are better people than that.

Yeah, we do all this and look how great the world is. :doubt:

Peace does not mean enlightenment.
"I.....don't.....CARE!!!!!" ---- an0n
"an0n's right. He's crazy, an asshole, not to be trusted, rarely to be taken seriously, and never to be allowed near your mother. But, he's got a knack for being right. In the worst possible way he can find." ---- Yuppygoat
~-=~!@!~=-~ : Nodewar.com

 

Offline Mr. Vega

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The Israeli-Palastinian conflict will not stop in the next 50 years.

The Israelis want the Palestinians all dead or forced off the West Bank area.

The Palestinians want more Israelis dead and all their land back.

Neither of those will happen. The only possible way to stop it immediately is to destroy both governments (as if Palestine has one) and reconstruct them to prevent this from happenning again.

About as much chance of that happening as Sharone calling Arafat and saying, "Lets be friends forever."
« Last Edit: March 27, 2002, 09:55:30 pm by 490 »
Words ought to be a little wild, for they are the assaults of thoughts on the unthinking.
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Offline Pera

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Quote
Originally posted by Mr. Vega

Neither of those will happen. The only possible way to stop it immediately is to destroy both governments (as if Palestine has one) and reconstruct them to prevent this from happenning again.



This is excactly the problem. It seems that the only way to end this war was if the Israeli completely crushed the palestinians, sad but true.

And now, I didn't say that I think the Israeli were any more "right" than the palestinians, it just is, that sometimes the only way to end a war, is to fight it to the end.

Unfotunately, because the international opinion, even that is not going to happen, looks like people think it's just better to close our ears and forget about the whole thing.
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Offline CP5670

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Quote
I don't think we can just say something like "Those are the good guys, those are the bad guys", life isn't black and white. Terrorism isn't the right way to solve anything, but who excactly is the one to say what is terrorism and what is not?


Exactly; both sides are good and bad. There is no "good side" or "bad side" in the world; there are simply sides. In the end, you just have to pick among them based on other things. (for example, the US is arguably just as much "terrorist" as the Al Qaeda people, so that is of no importance; you must judge by other factors when choosing a side)

Quote
You can't grasp concepts that run against your currently ingrained beliefs, and fail to see the logic in any opposing argument.


This is the single worst part of human nature in my opinion. I have seen this everywhere in the world, and it is the by far largest deterrent to scientific and technological progress.

Quote
They've both done things that are wrong, but during my lifetime, all i,ve seen are pictures of israeli teenagers dead, after a "freedom" figher blew themselves up. I doubt the Israeli's will tolerate the lastest attack, they tolerated the others because they sought the cease fire but the terrorists wouldnt listen. Is arafat really in control of his people?


Well, the Western world essentially operates the media, and the Jews have a lot of power in those nations (especially the big giant, the US) so they will always be showing the things that make themselves look "right."

I'm not against Israel at all - in fact, as I said earlier, I think Israel should just blast down Palestine with an all-out assault (hehe I am opposed to any religious fanaticism and also any avoidance to new technology) - but you cannot really determine who is good and who is bad here. Personally I think that moral values are simply human conceptions and by-products of early civilization that cannot be objectively applied to anything in the universe, and should therefore be discarded.

Quote
Peace does not mean enlightenment.


I quite agree with that. Peace will get us nowhere until the formation of a world government in a few centuries.

Quote

The Israelis want the Palestinians all dead or forced off the West Bank area.

The Palestinians want more Israelis dead and all their land back.


Right; each side wants the complete annihilation of the other, and the problem will not be solved until one party has been destroyed.

Quote
Unfotunately, because the international opinion, even that is not going to happen, looks like people think it's just better to close our ears and forget about the whole thing.


This is probably the only reason Israel has not yet attacked and conquered all of Palestine. (a very similar case is India and Pakistan) The thing is that the nations involved have to be big players in global politics. When the US was attacked, they didn't ask for anyone's permission to blow up Afghanistan; they just went right in, knowing that nobody would try stop them. At some point, however, I have a feeling that these nations will simply have had enough (maybe in the next 15 years), and would just attack their offenders, screw world opinion. Their enemies do not have sizeable military forces and the outcome of such a conflict is quite obvious. The rest of the world will protest, but they will not do anything beyond that.

 

Offline Setekh

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Quote
Originally posted by sandwich
:mad2: 15 dead, over 100 wounded :mad:

On Passover Eve....!

God, have mercy! :(


:( :( :(

But remember dude, He does have mercy. There was a purpose to this.
- Eddie Kent Woo, Setekh, Steak (of Steaks), AWACS. Seriously, just pick one.
HARD LIGHT PRODUCTIONS, now V3.0. Bringing Modders Together since January 2001.
THE HARD LIGHT ARRAY. Always makes you say wow.

 

Offline Blue Lion

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I hope it's a good one

 

Offline CougEr

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...and then they said I write long winded posts, hehe :D

I did not read everything on this thread,  I don't have the time and I'm not about to pass on my opinion on the Israel Palestinian conflict, but let me congratulate NegspectahDek for a fun, informative at times, speculative but still accurate resocont of the arab israel story.
His witty and satirish post is to me a good example of how to write without offending either sides, still bringing his point across
and making a long story,  fun and informative for everyone.

This to me is quality writing. I wish I could see more of it, here or anywhere also for this matter.

CougEr
« Last Edit: March 28, 2002, 02:10:40 am by 404 »
CougEr
"This is not about FS2 or PXO any more. This is about YOUR ATTITUDE, Your place in any society, your ability and willpower to stand up and make a difference. For what ever small your effort might seem it's all part of a bigger picture in every aspects of your life."
-----------------------------------Roberto von Gallandt, 2002
OSIRIS STATION

 
much as i'd like to, i cant claim credit for that, although given the motivation and time, i would have written something similar.