[iamzack]

...

High Max, to be clear, suicide goes like this:

pain > coping methods

It's not about cowardice or strength or selfishness, aiight? It's about being (or just feeling) incapable of coping with life.

[Mikes]

Paper that i read recently, speculated if it was about finding "meaning". That would mean a suicidee would find more meaning suicide than life... 

As such being "strong" or "weak" may as well be considered an independent variable.

Looking through the lense of "strong and weak" i would actually rather consider people who lash out and hurt other people to compensate for their own lifes difficulties to be much "weaker".

[Dilmah G]

I thought people like that were (sometimes) attributed to having an "undeserved" high self-esteem. People don't often consciously hit others because of their own life difficulties, but the people I know put themselves into positions in which there is little choice (gang violence etc). Often around here the people who start fights are drug/alcohol abusers and testosterone fueled.

[iamzack]

I thought people like that were (sometimes) attributed to having an "undeserved" high self-esteem. People don't often consciously hit others because of their own life difficulties, but the people I know put themselves into positions in which there is little choice (gang violence etc). Often around here the people who start fights are drug/alcohol abusers and testosterone fueled.

Well, look at narcissism. A lack of true identity leads to the creation of an "ideal" identity and the narcissist becomes totally wrapped up in protecting the created identity, no matter the cost to others.

[Dilmah G]

I would say the problem's too prevalent around here to put it down to NPD. Unless you were to label Western Australian Gangs as narcissistic. I suppose your typical bully could be put down to narcissism.

i would actually rather consider people who lash out and hurt other people to compensate for their own lifes difficulties to be much "weaker".

I wouldn't say people lash out for those specific reasons though.

[Mefustae]

I'm going to play devil's advocate and agree with the notion that suicide is the trademark of the weak. I'm not being abusive, I'm literally saying that weak people commit suicide. That's a fact.

Speaking philosophically, when you strip away everything a person has; their money, power and connections to the outside world, they still have their existence. I'm not saying existence is important or in any way meaningful, but it has an intrinsic value to each and every sentient being. To voluntarily surrender that core trait is, I believe, a completely ******** retarded thing to do.

Hey, no matter who you are, we've all thought about killing ourselves at least once. Probably many times. Assignments due the next day, a messy breakup, just a really ****ty day. The idea of ending it all seems really appealing, just moving beyond all the problems and not having to worry about work, school or anyone else. Ever. But that doesn't detract from the fact that it's still a stupid ****ing idea.

Ultimately, our lives are our own. That is a fundamental, the fundamental right of all beings. If you want to end your life, then you are free to do so. But that's not going to stop me from naming you a dip**** and calling you names for giving up something as unique and special as consciousness.

[General Battuta]

I got a report about this thread; I'm leaving it open because a legitimate discussion could occur here. Don't mess it up, don't be overly offensive or a huge dick.

Seconded.

EDIT: Mefustae's post was over the edge. Suicide victims are killed by biological processes every bit as valid as those that kill AIDS or cancer victims. Prejudice against the treatment of depression/anxiety/loneliness as a disease is part of the reason so few people report it and get help. Furthermore, the fact that suicide is genetically mediated makes it doubly offensive to call suicide victims 'utterly ****ing retarded'. Mefustae's assertion that existence has value on its own seems to ignore the fact that seem people are in such intense, unbearable pain, and believe themselves so far from any help or salvation, that existence itself is a burden.

I'm not going to lock the topic quite yet. But this is definitely moving into 'insulting the victims' territory.

Furthermore, I can't resist pointing out that existence and consciousness have no intrinsic value beyond those assigned by evolution. We don't want to die because evolution has weeded out those who do want to die.

[peterv]

Suicide is the trademark  off someone who is in extreme pain, physically or psychologically. By default, this kind of person is week, but pointing to his weakens instead off the causes off his suffering, is the trademark the useless.

[General Battuta]

No, that kind of person is not 'weak' by definition. That term doesn't make any sense. 'Weak' suggests 'lacking in strength or the ability to cope.'

In fact, suicides are promoted by a tremendous number of factors, most of them non-internal. These include the size of one's social network, the presence or absence of a pet, the presence or absence of an engaging job, genetic factors that mediate the reaction to stressful life events, culture, availability of suicide methods, and the number of suicides which have occurred in the person's awareness.

To say that 'weakness' is the determining factor is akin to suggesting that disease is caused by an imbalance of humors. It's scientifically wrong and totally asinine. And I hope it will not become a point for debate here.

[peterv]

Not with me, i generally agree with you

[General Battuta]

All right, I can see how what you said was in line with my argument. Sorry if I came off too snappish.

[Grogs]

Very funny......

No, they should be stronger and take the pain of life instead of the easy way out and a massive pitty party, but it does take some bravery to kill yourself. So one could say they are weak and strong at the same time, just in different ways, I suppose.

'

duality of man?

[iamzack]

In fact, suicides are promoted by a tremendous number of factors, most of them non-internal. These include the size of one's social network, the presence or absence of a pet, the presence or absence of an engaging job, genetic factors that mediate the reaction to stressful life events, culture, availability of suicide methods, and the number of suicides which have occurred in the person's awareness.

I actually kinda disagree on this point. I had an argument with my exgirlfriend about this during the Holocaust unit of World History. She basically was saying "wtf is wrong with these people that they didn't kill themselves?"

I think suicide is almost entirely an internal thing. No matter how capable a person is if handling his life, no matter how supportive his friends and family are, etc, etc, if he *feels* incapable of coping and that there is no one there for him, he will kill himself. Like, for example, a suicide committed over a breakup. I would think that the suicide would be due to a feeling of worthlessness and loneliness more than due to a feeling of loss, and that that instability in self-worth would have to have been pre-existing.

However, I do disagree that suicide happens because of a person's weakness. Suicide happens when a person is sure (whether it is true or not) that they will never feel better than they do right then. Hopelessness.

So I figured that Holocaust victims didn't kill themselves en masse because they had some hope left. Like, they believed their family was still alive and that they would see them again, for example.

[Black Wolf]

If you're willing to get away from the emotional side of the issue and look at it clinically, suicide must be a trait of some kind of weakness within the personality. Consider iamzack's equation -

suicide = pain > coping methods

Surely someone's ability to cope with pain is the definition of strength or weakness when put into an emotional context (that is, not thinking muscular or physical strength). You can propose a root cause for the weakness(clinical depression, chemical imbalance in the brain, whatever), and then you have positive or negative factors influencing the individual (as Battuta pointed out, social network, pets etc.) but ultimately these are factors which influence an individual's pain tolerance, i.e. their "weakness".

The problem I think some people are having is that the term "weak" eliminates the concept of the sliding scale which needs to be considered. The degree of pain that each person can tolerate is unique to the individual, so even the strongest might snap if the pressures to do so reach some critical level. In this debate it's a question of language being insufficient to the issue rather than one of any real debate.

That aside, I still think more along Mefustae's lines than a lot of other people in this thread. Each case is unique, but I personally feel that every human being can be and must be held to a certain level of moral conduct. One of the central concepts of this, hell, the central concept, is the way you allow your life to impact on others, and suicide is one of the most devastating things someone can do to those close to them. In some ways, it's worse than murder because there's no external focus for those left behind. You can't point to an external cause and say "That did it, he/she/it is the cause of this tragedy." Instead, people are left with the guilt and grief that comes from the belief that they could have changed the outcome. So yes, while you can have mitigating factors (I'm not against euthanasia, for example, because it eliminates the guilt factor from those left behind and retains an external cause to which the loss can be ascribed (i.e. the disease). But going and jumping off a bridge of your own free will because you're depressed... no. It's outside the code of ethics that I hold people to, and as far as I'm concerned it's wrong.

[General Battuta]

You could say the exact same thing of any disease, though.

Like those who are ill with cancer or AIDS, the depressive and the suicidal need help. Most suicides are preventable, and to attribute suicide to 'weakness' in the suicide victim is to neglect the fact that 'we' (the people around the victim) could have probably saved them.

Here's my problem with your analysis:

But going and jumping off a bridge of your own free will because you're depressed... no.

That's a contradiction. People do not jump off a bridge 'of their own free will.' There is no free will. There are no decisions without causes. People jump off bridges because they are depressed. And that depression is an ailment as powerful and real as something like Ebola. It must be addressed and treated in order to prevent the death of the patient.

That said, I agree that suicide has a devastating effect on those close to the victim. But I imagine this is part of what motivates suicide victims. The act is, in no small part, a plea for help - 'Why didn't you pay attention to me? Why didn't you listen?'

[DarkBasilisk]

You could say the exact same thing of any disease, though.

Like those who are ill with cancer or AIDS, the depressive and the suicidal need help. Most suicides are preventable, and to attribute suicide to 'weakness' in the suicide victim is to neglect the fact that 'we' (the people around the victim) could have probably saved them.

Here's my problem with your analysis:

But going and jumping off a bridge of your own free will because you're depressed... no.

That's a contradiction. People do not jump off a bridge 'of their own free will.' There is no free will. There are no decisions without causes. People jump off bridges because they are depressed. And that depression is an ailment as powerful and real as something like Ebola. It must be addressed and treated in order to prevent the death of the patient.

That said, I agree that suicide has a devastating effect on those close to the victim. But I imagine this is part of what motivates suicide victims. The act is, in no small part, a plea for help - 'Why didn't you pay attention to me? Why didn't you listen?'

Strongly agree again. And with what people said before about calling them weak tries to neglect the responsibility of people to help. Consideration goes both ways, if you're expecting people to care enough about you to not off themselves and cause you trouble, you should be caring about them. It's not always fair, but a lot of times, I think this "pain" they leave behind is entirely deserved by the others, especially family members. They're the ones that are dead and gone now, the people still around failed them, not the other way around.

[peterv]

You could say the exact same thing of any disease, though.

Like those who are ill with cancer or AIDS, the depressive and the suicidal need help. Most suicides are preventable, and to attribute suicide to 'weakness' in the suicide victim is to neglect the fact that 'we' (the people around the victim) could have probably saved them.

Well, it's easier to arrogantly say that "weakness" is the problem. And it's a great way to show our own superiority.

[General Battuta]

Well, I don't want to say that people like Mefustae and BlackWolf feel the way they do because they don't give a ****. Nor do I want to suggest that most suicide victims could have been saved just by some attention, care, and hugs.

Just like the diseases I keep comparing it to, depression is a really nasty, awful, sometimes intractable problem. The treatments for it are often as difficult as the cures. Some people just can't be saved.

But to say it has anything to do with an individual's 'preset tolerance for suffering' oversimplifies a massive web of epiphenomenal factors spanning genetics, socialization, personal history, diet, and physical fitness. People do not commit suicide because they have hit their own personal breaking point. They make the decision in what seems to them to be a rational way. Very often it's a strong, definitive choice - (BSG spoilers)

Spoiler:

see Dee from BSG season 4.

This thread needs moar MP-Ryan.

[colecampbell666]

Aye. We need our geneticist/psychologist.

[High Max]

.