[Sushi]

So, it totally sucks when the AI runs out of ammo for primary weapons. If primary weapons have limited ammo, AI ships that survive long enough will eventually run out. The result is a useless, neutered, dumb-looking ship that flies around trying to shoot you but with nothing to shoot. This is a bit less of a problem when support ships are available, but what if they're not?

The question is, what should we do about it? I'd love to hear some ideas.

Ideas I've had so far:

1. Add a SEXP or something that triggers when a ship is out of ammo, and let the FREDders deal with it. I don't know how feasible this one is, someone will have to tell me.

2. Always give AI ships infinite ammo for primary weapons.

3. Let them run out, but magically give them back 10% after being empty for 15 seconds (or something, specific numbers can be fiddled). That way, when they "run out", they can still fight, but less effectively. The idea is to make it look like the ships are nursing their ammo by firing less often.


Any other ideas, or comments on these ones?

[The E]

I would prefer solution 1.
More work for FREDders, but I believe the AI should not cheat.

[Dragon]

You already can get primary ammo and do something with it.
It would look like that:
When
=
get-primary-ammo
0

add-goal
AI-keep-safe-distance

This should make AI try to keep safe distance from enemy after they run out of ammo.

[headdie]

depending on the situation

option 3 if you are in a situation where the player will have chance to notice e.g. lots of light action

option 2 if the situation is intense where the player is not likely to notice and will probably need the help of their allies, would have to be done in FRED if you plan to allow the player to change weapons for their wingmates

[FUBAR-BDHR]

I don't like the idea of the AI having more ammo then it would as a player ship.  If the player is good enough to evade until the AI run out then why penalize him?  A sexp to check would be good but that only helps in certain situations.  I can't see where it would really help in a TvT or coop where the AI normally would be a player ship. 

Giving any ship that could be a player ship extra ammo would be giving an advantage especially in TvT. 

Default behaviors if the ship runs out of ammo aren't really a solution either unless they are both mission and ship specific. 

One thing that might help would be better handling of the use of ammo in the first place.  Bursts instead of continuous fire, dropping the amount of those bursts when the ammo falls below a certain %, that sort of thing so there is less chance of them running out in the first place. 

[karajorma]

Yep, fixing the AI to care about it's ammo is where I would suggest starting on a fix for the problem too.

[Sushi]

Better ammo handling would indeed help, but the problem is still there (just pushed a bit further back). One way or another, they'll still eventually run out.

[FUBAR-BDHR]

Well when they run out there should be a standard defensive tactics routine.  They should quit doing obvious attacks (although an occasional fake attack wouldn't hurt) and basically fall into formation and try to take some fire off of their wingmates. 

Now this should be overrideable by events like Kamikaze, evade, warp out etc.  Those are only a few of \the things AI without ammo could do.

On a curious note what do the AI do when they have their weapons subsystem destroyed?  I usuall don't give them a chance to see the outcome.

[karajorma]

After somewhere between 30 seconds and a minute the game blows them up. Same for disabled enemy fighters.

Friendlies do get to call in support of course.

[colecampbell666]

So you can disable them but as long as weapons are intact they'll stay immobile?

[chief1983]

What?  He means that disabled fighters blow up after 30-60s, and so do fighters with no weapons subsystem.  Either one will cause them to die within a minute.

[colecampbell666]

Oh.

[Kolgena]

You already can get primary ammo and do something with it.
It would look like that:
When
=
get-primary-ammo
0

add-goal
AI-keep-safe-distance

This should make AI try to keep safe distance from enemy after they run out of ammo.

I have a feeling that this won't work. What if you're in a super slow fighter, and just met up with a fighter with 0 ammo that you have to kill to beat the mission? He runs away, and you'll never catch him till you collide with yourself.

[Dragon]

Then add something other in place of AI-keep-same-distance .
That's only an example ,I think running away is the best thing you can do without ammunition and perspectives of rearming.
You can for example use AI-warp goal for fighter to jump out ,or place first part in departure cue ,ordering the ship to return to carrier when out of ammunition.
Just order it to do something that makes sence.

[castor]

Make them ram the player ship. With self destruct..

[Nuke]

some ideas

modding side:
reduce fire rates if possible
decrease cargo size variable
add a turret with an energy weapon (see below)

programming side:
make ai use wanderer's turret features if they dont do so already
make them call for support when they use up some percentage of their ammo
make them use ammo more efficiently, meaning closer tolerances in target leading / more advanced lead calculation
firing in short controlled bursts, and only when there is a high probability of hitting the target.
if multiple ammo weapons are available, avoid linking them, use the weapon with the highest velocity at range, powerful guns at medium range, and all guns at short range only.

from the fredding side of things:
always equip an energy weapon on ships that have more than one slot.
issue dumb fire rocket type weapons like tempests to at least one secondary bank
make ships that are out of ammo return to base, and then launch a replacement fighter a short time later to simulate a touch, arm, and go rearm.

[karajorma]

Not every mod has support though. And they should call in support when low on ammo already.

[Nuke]

you could also add an ai bank capacity or something like it

[Sushi]

make ai use wanderer's turret features if they dont do so already

Thanks for the ideas, but could you please explain this one?

[Nuke]

thats really kind of difficult since im not really ll thatfamiliar with the turret features, i just know some of them ive wanted for awhile. mainly the ai would be aware of its turrets, and the turret ai aware of what the ship ai is trying to do. so it can bring its turret weapons to bear if need be. i remember many times in fs1 just keeping on the tail of a ship in a bomber, leaving it exposed to the turret, and got many kills this way.