Author Topic: Tactics On A System-Wide Scale  (Read 14404 times)

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Offline NGTM-1R

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Tactics On A System-Wide Scale
Okay folks, out with it. Present your version here if you're going to.

My vision of it is based on mainly on the existence of subspace travel. Subspace changes all the rules, providing mobility undreamed-of. Concepts such as secured areas or front lines are dangerous anachronisms in the face of subspace drive. Forces can be concentrated or wildly dispersed in a couple of minutes. This is a world where total mobility has shaped the battlefield in a way usually reserved for weapons.

This is actually a terribly limiting factor. In less-mobile forms of warfare, it is possible to force your opponent to accept battle when he does not think he can win. The subspace drive takes that all away. Employing overwhelming force just isn't a viable option anymore because the enemy doesn't need to stand there and take it. In fact, it's extremely easy for an opponent to simply deny you combat if all you're interested in is destroying his ships.

In this world of horribly mobile spacecraft, the only objects of intrinsic value become those that can't actually move. Jump nodes, installations, and planets can be used to force combat on an opponent who might otherwise simply jump away. Even here an opponent will probably simply concede the area without a fight if things look too grim going in. This is doubly damaging, because now it must be defended, requiring some force to be detached; in effect inflicting a loss on the attacking fleet without even trying.

Combat thus becomes a pyschological guessing game about how much force to employ, with the ideal manuver being multiple small battles across the system. This prevents enemy forces from being mutually supporting. If your opponent decides to go "all in" at one of these, you can do likewise or simply disappear like smoke in the wind. Escalating engagements are going to be the order of the day, and most of the time fleets will have to be whittled down a few ships at a time because any battle obviously going badly will simply be abandoned.

And thus, perversely, it turns out that the version of warfare presented in the FS games is not insane, but rather represents the tentative, guessing-game sort of battle one would expect.

Except when dealing with the Shivans, but that's another story...
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: Tactics On A System-Wide Scale
This is the vision we've been following in BP. Parallel lines of genius, I can only imagine!

 

Offline The E

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Re: Tactics On A System-Wide Scale
Of course, all the points presented here really make you scratch your head regarding the standard FS2 convoy escort mission, the very first non-training mission for example. Assuming that civilian subspace drives are fundamentally equally capable of jumping in and out wherever they choose, why should a convoy travel any distance at all in realspace, if it could just jump from one protected area to the next?
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: Tactics On A System-Wide Scale
Jumping may be easy but navigation is probably hard.

And maybe some areas of the system are more hazardous to transit than others. Possibly easier/safer/faster to take a multi-leg journey than to compute and run a jump through a rough patch.

*shrug* Best I can come up with.

 

Offline Snail

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Re: Tactics On A System-Wide Scale
Yeah, I completely agree. I've always found certain campaigns where ships just sit there and let themselves get killed (like the Eva somewhat in Evangelist) kinda retarded (though in the Eva's case it's excusable since they're Shivans, and kinda illogical that way).

I think the main focus of any campaign should be Jump Nodes. Securing a Jump Node if you're invading allows you to bring in supplies and reinforcements, blockading a Jump Node if you're defending stops them from coming in and contains the threat. Sure it would probably just cause a stalemate until one side makes the big push, but it's still a good tactic.

Then someone creates blockade smashers with intersystem Meson Bombs or something... Meh.

Of course, all the points presented here really make you scratch your head regarding the standard FS2 convoy escort mission, the very first non-training mission for example. Assuming that civilian subspace drives are fundamentally equally capable of jumping in and out wherever they choose, why should a convoy travel any distance at all in realspace, if it could just jump from one protected area to the next?
Read the Briefing again. Those freighters didn't have subspace drives.

 

Offline The E

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Re: Tactics On A System-Wide Scale
Oh. OK, that explains that one. What about the Colossus resupply mission (Into the Maelstrom, Mission 9)? Why didn't the Transports jump directly to the Collys' location?
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Offline Snail

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Re: Tactics On A System-Wide Scale
Oh. OK, that explains that one. What about the Colossus resupply mission (Into the Maelstrom, Mission 9)? Why didn't the Transports jump directly to the Collys' location?
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Re: Tactics On A System-Wide Scale
Maybe some jump drives aren't as efficient as others? That seems to be the only explanation. As different ships have different capabilities, it seems safe to assume that different ships also have different levels of jump drives. Oh and also, navigation.

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Tactics On A System-Wide Scale
I've often observed there's no reason for FS combat to take place where it actually does, usually, but in the absence of further information on the function of subspace drives, this is more or less what you're left with.

It's also been postulated that direct arrival at a jump node is not possible based on what happened to the Pstamik and a number of escort missions. (And possibly in contravention of what the Carthage and Dashor do...)

The Shivans are a whole different story. Because they more or less don't care about fixed objects, they are on one level incredibly dangerous. Shorn of things to make them stand and fight, you end up with a dispersed, unpredictable, very powerful enemy who is also shorn of the apparent need for logistics. (Though the Shivans can and will fight for jump nodes, just why is never clear; the GTA went to a lot of trouble to interdict Shivan logistics in FS1, think of all those times you saw Shivan cans! But it never seemed to matter, and in the end the GTA couldn't locate any Shivan source of supply.) Their disadvantage is they basically seem to go into frothing xenocidal rage when they encounter hostiles usually and will typically stand their ground and fight. However absent any other worthwhile targets using overwhelming force against the Shivans is basically the way to go; you want to jump in and annihilate them instantly before they get a chance to turn their more powerful beam weaponry on you or call for backup and start dumping Rakshasas in your rear arc.
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Offline Black Wolf

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Re: Tactics On A System-Wide Scale
I've always assumed that subspace drives on non-miltary vessels had a sort of macimum distance they could jump, between which they needed to wait until they recharged/cooled down before they could do another little hop, cool down/recharge, and over and over again until they got to their destination. Along with little excuses like "Can't jump through obstacles like planets or asteroid fields", "Can't jump out too close to a planet" etc. etc. there are plenty of reasons for convoy escorts, along with standard ones like "no jump drives".
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Offline Dilmah G

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Re: Tactics On A System-Wide Scale
Ships take time to recharge their drives, simple as that.

NGTM-1R's got it right on the head. Rather than targeting individual ships, you have to target positions of strategic importance, such as jump nodes and installations. If you want to draw out a ship, then you assault an installation or what not. As far as strategy goes, Jump nodes allows you to progress between systems, destroying other ships for the sake of it does not.

Basic strategy (in my eyes), would be to take a jump node, consolidate it, neutralise enemy command positions (installations) to incapacitate the enemy's ability to maintain tactical and strategic awareness, and after severing their supply lines and wearing them down, rinse, repeat until you get to your objective.

As far as the Shivans go, we don't know what their home system is, and where to nip them in the bud. So we have to resort to hitting them where we see them, cutting off their supplies if we see them, and taking the nodes/planets. Until we find a way to eliminate or (properly) communicate, we're on the backfoot. However sealing their entry through the meson bomb use is a reasonable solution for the time being.

 

Offline Rodo

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Re: Tactics On A System-Wide Scale
no one considers time in subspace travel a factor?

I mean, is it the same to jump from Earth to Jupiter or Mars in time scale? I mean time in subspace... obviously the more distance the more length of the travel as evidenced in FS1 when alpha is sent to destroy the Lucy on the corridor, that mission took 10 minutes? 5 minutes?

IMO, the concept of instant travel is kinda badly used in FS campaigns, even if time invested in travel on the same system being infinitesimal, the actual time it takes to make a wing/ship ready to combat and deployment should take more than just a mere 5 second delay.
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Offline redsniper

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Re: Tactics On A System-Wide Scale
Intrasystem jumps are almost instantaneous IIRC.
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Offline Snail

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Re: Tactics On A System-Wide Scale
Says so in the Intel description

 

Offline Scotty

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Re: Tactics On A System-Wide Scale
If jump drives take a while to recharge, the Iceni should not have been able to evade the Colossus even if it hadn't been sabotaged.

 

Offline Colonol Dekker

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Re: Tactics On A System-Wide Scale
If jump drives take a while to recharge, the Iceni should not have been able to evade the Colossus even if it hadn't been sabotaged.

That's very true, but who says the Iceni had a single jump drive.........obscure i know but *shrug*
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Re: Tactics On A System-Wide Scale
I think they were diverting power from weapons to make it recharge faster (it has SGreens instead of BGreens that mission).
Also, the Iceni is pretty much a purpose-built blockade runner, so redundant jump drives wouldn't be out of the question.
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Re: Tactics On A System-Wide Scale
Thing about the shivans is that there is a remarkable lack of intel on the shivans. There's no true idea behind their total numbers, tactics, goals. Imagine fighting a battle blindfolded, with your mouth taped shut and ears blocked. And the only sense you have is your hands to touch and feel around you. That's pretty much what fighting the shivan's is like.

The key to destroying ships would pretty much have to be attacking points of interest and forcing them to defend the planet. Much harder would be to attack a specific target, ex. Iceni. To chase down a ship that knows you are after it, would require some tactic that involved destroying their engines.

 

Offline Dragon

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Re: Tactics On A System-Wide Scale
Bosch cetrainly took into account possiblity of disabling Iceni, as he commanded to install multiple engines on it, thus greatly increasing time needed to fully disable it and giving himself more time to recharge drives and escape. Also, multiple jumpdrives are something I would take into consideration when planning a ship that's task is to evade entire GTVA.

 

Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: Tactics On A System-Wide Scale
Locations of strategic or tactical importance:

-Jump nodes (inter-system mobility)

-Lagrangian points in systems; good places to put installations, shipyards, sensor arrays, communications outposts and other assorted stuff like that at.

-Geocentric orbit altitude around the equators of planets. Also, following speculation assumes that subspace jumps from low gravity potential to high gravity potential (ie. from low orbit to high orbit) require more energy than simply jumps from "deep space" to another location in "deep space" (meaning, reasonably far from any significant gravity sources). Intersystem jumps seem to be a bit different because the nodes seem more like natural phenomenons than the intra-system jump nodes that are (again based on my assumption) temporarily generated by the jump drives of the ships using them.

Hence it would make sense that capital ships would be fairly reluctant to settle on low orbital altitude - getting away from there would require a lot of energy, and while possible, it would also likely mean longer recharge time for the jump drives. And for the practicality of geocentric orbits, it's unlikely anyone would willingly sacrifice such an energy advantage.

Based on these assumptions, it would be very rare to see capital ship combat below geocentric orbital altitude (which depends of course of individual planets' mass and rotational period). Transportation from surface to geocentric orbits could be done either via space elevators, or transport space craft. Escorts of important transports would be most sensible to manage with atmospheric fighter forces based on the planet, and the actual space fighters that we are all so fond of; most likely these fighter squadrons would be based on installations positioned on the geosynchronous orbits.

These installations would be the main port of goods from planets to the capital ships (and other planets of course). Food, water, recruits, munitions, maybe some fuels, spare parts and very likely smaller-than-cruiser sized ships would most likely arrive to your fleet via this route, and any meaningful volumes of this sort of stuff require space elevators - hence geosynchronous orbital isntallations are a necessity. Losing control of these installations would be equal to losing the planet as a source of resources, as you would be cut off from the space elevators and using transport ships would be a logistical nightmare beyond any hope of success as far as I can see.

For a capital ship to go below the geosynch orbital plane there would need to be a pretty good reason for it. Accurate surface bombardment for example would actually be easier from geosynchronous orbit despite the distance (although you would need to take the coriolis-effect into account) than from low orbit where you can only make passes at any given target during fairly limited window of opportunity. Related to this, polar regions would be easiest to defend on a planetary surface and also likely to be the last strongholds against an invasion force.

-Off-planet resources. These would include iron asteroids, comets with significant heavy water concentration, rare elements and other miscellaneous stuff that can be found in the space. The major advantage in these is that they are already in space, so you don't need to haul them there from the planet surface. Which pretty much means if you have a nice huge iron asteroid, you would likely build a shipyard next to it and start making ships out of it rather than ship the iron somewhere else.

Or whatever the ships are made of, although I would still hazard a guess that capital ship frameworks are built of steel/iron. Fighters might have composite, titanium or aluminium hulls, but capital ships most likely have iron frameworks. Or maybe steel concrete, although making concrete in vacuum would likely be... difficult (what with the water doing funny stuff based on nonexistent pressure and very variable temperatures).

So, this sort of resources would likely be on the list of things you would want to keep in order to replenish your fleet.
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