[Flipside]

Exactly, there's a stereotype of Engineers being white men with a Gillette shave and a perfectly clean hard-hat, which is, in and of itself, a lie, but because of that, people generally expect Engineers to be male, white and in their 20-30's.

Because companies realise that this is what the consumer expects, they go out of their way to produce the image the customer expects to see, including using the same image in their own advertising, which serves to strengthen the belief and close the circle.

Edit: It has to be mentioned though, as I think someone mentioned earlier, that the problem is on both sides of the fence, people do builds walls around what they believe they are capable of, but it's a lot easier for corporations to break those walls than individuals.

[Liberator]

Well, it is stereotyping (even worse, it's assuming that lack of a father causes felony). It's just not a race-related stereotype. However, if you think race is relevant to the assumption, then that's actually just racist by definition.

But, there is a corollary link between lack of responsible fathers and criminal behavior.  I know, correlation does not equal causation, but you have to admit it's a fairly reliable indicator.

I noted the blackness of this aspect of the issue simply to illustrate the "shooting of the foot" that happens in "black society" more frequently than in society in general.

Again, I stand with Dr. King.  Content of character before skin color or anything else come into play.  You want me to respect you, give me a reason, not some bull**** about how I'm holding you down.

[Colonol Dekker]

The same could be said about middle management in the corporate world circa 50's and even as late as the 80's but we've made leaps and bounds since then thankfully.

[Flipside]

Oh, certainly, compared to 30 years ago, racism is massively in decline, but I suppose the problem was that equality had to be achieved from the lowest wage level and working its way upwards. The higher it gets on the wage and power bracket, the tougher job it has, not only because it is fighting more influential people, but because less people in the community actually consider it worth fighting for because they have convinced themselves that they'd never achieve that kind of level in the first place.

[TrashMan]

Scotty, your ideas would be wonderful in a world where the playing field is in fact, level, and hopefully someday they'll have a place.

But for now, racism is a prevalent and subtle factor, and it must be fought.

I say bollocks. Just because there still are some people who act racist doesn't mean racism is rampart or a big problem. Or are you saying that as long as a single individual on a planet exists that harbors racists thought, we must crusade against it in a annoying manner?

As long as anyone, regardless of skin color or religion or whatever can apply for any position and achieve it, so long as he has the same basic rights as everyone else - then there is no problem.
While the playing field may not be 100% the same, it will never be....well, not unless you brainwash all of the humanity and merge it into a collective. The basic rules are set and are being employed. That's what counts. Everything else is inconsequental.

[Kosh]

people generally expect Engineers to be male, white and in their 20-30's.

I disagree with that, they usually expect some asian wizkid these days.

Because companies realise that this is what the consumer expects, they go out of their way to produce the image the customer expects to see, including using the same image in their own advertising, which serves to strengthen the belief and close the circle.

But that ignores one of the points I made, how can they hire black engineers when there are few to none that are studying to be engineers? I think part of the problem is their attitudes towards studying in general, and without that how can you get any kind of legal high paying job that isn't being sports or rap star?

[TrashMan]

I don't think the "why aren't there as many black engineers" quiestio ncannot be answered simply.

There's probably many, many factors as to why is that. Everything from income to personal aspiration to distance to god-knows-what-else.

[General Battuta]

Scotty, your ideas would be wonderful in a world where the playing field is in fact, level, and hopefully someday they'll have a place.

But for now, racism is a prevalent and subtle factor, and it must be fought.

I say bollocks. Just because there still are some people who act racist doesn't mean racism is rampart or a big problem. Or are you saying that as long as a single individual on a planet exists that harbors racists thought, we must crusade against it in a annoying manner?

It still needs to be fought when almost everyone on the planet (myself and yourself included) displays prejudiced results on an implicit association test.

As long as anyone, regardless of skin color or religion or whatever can apply for any position and achieve it, so long as he has the same basic rights as everyone else - then there is no problem.

Absolutely, but that's not possible right now.

[Stealth]

Let me just throw this in.  An example of racism, in the form of reverse discrimination.

Sotomayer:

"I would hope that a wise Latina woman with the richness of her experiences would more often than not reach a better conclusion than a white male who hasn't lived that life," she answered repeatedly during the press conference.

Can you imagine if a white candidate had said the same thing, but about a black male?  Are you kidding?  There would have been riots nationwide!  There is NO WAY he (or she) would still be a supreme court candidate. 

That's reverse discrimination

[General Battuta]

Oh, jeez, Stealth. People have been talking about this for weeks.

First off, it's not reverse discrimination. It's just discrimination.

Second, the reason there would've been riots nationwide is because a white male is in a position of power and therefore has trouble empathizing with minority groups. If her point was that a Latina woman understands the difficulties of life as a minority member (both as a Latina and a woman, neither group in a position of power) better than a white male, then she was making a valid point.

You're ignoring the fact that there are very real power dynamics in the world, and white men are at the top of most of them. She has the right to suggest that someone from the societal 'underclasses' may have a better understanding of how difficult things can be.

[Flipside]

@Kosh:

Well, the thing is, because of the pressure inside the industry that certain 'types' of people fulfill certain roles, the people who are training up for that career who don't fill those roles face two sets of obstacles, the industries, and the limitations of belief that they impose on themselves.

So you don't see many black engineers because many from that background have defeated themselves before they try by saying 'no-one will employ me because I'm not white' AND because those that do take the risk still face a very real obstacle with being accepted.

Thing is, if there was a massive upswell in non-whites taking an Engineering degree, the industry would have to conform to the personnel available, but because it's maybe one or two in a class, that stigma remains.

Edit: I actually met a Manager once who thought that because the Admin Assistant and the Receptionist were both minorities that he was an equal opportunity employer. Not ONE member of management was non-white. Now, it's possible that these were the best qualified people for the job, but it's equally possible that casual racism was taking place. The hard part is identifying which.

[TrashMan]

As long as anyone, regardless of skin color or religion or whatever can apply for any position and achieve it, so long as he has the same basic rights as everyone else - then there is no problem.

Absolutely, but that's not possible right now.

No?
US has a black president - that's the highest position one can aspire too.
Black people can apply for any position and get it. There are black people found in any position. So exactly what's the problem here?

Unless you're not talking about the US?

[iamzack]

Trashman, did you see my earlier post in this thread? Racism and discrimination *are* rampant in parts of this country. There are places where blacks can't even buy certain houses, let alone work certain jobs.

[General Battuta]

You can re-read my posts for detail, but the problem is that Black individuals cannot achieve most positions without extraordinary efforts. The playing field isn't anywhere near level. The earlier example I gave of the hiring decision is one such case: given a Black and a White individual of equivalent qualifications, the White individual will almost always be hired. There is experimental data to prove this, as well as real-life statistics.

Class is also tied into the race issue. Obama was a wealthy, well-educated man. More Black people are born into poverty and have trouble reaching high education as compared to Whites. This is because of socioeconomic problems that were originally caused by racism, and while it's debatable whether they still are, the root cause is still there.

Moreover, nearly everyone is racist on a subconscious level - we all maintain stereotypic associations between Black individuals and violence, crime, poverty, and stupidity. Until those are gone, the problem is nowhere near solved.

It is naive to think that racism is no longer a problem. It is doubly naive to cite President Obama as a reason for it.

Trashman, did you see my earlier post in this thread? Racism and discrimination *are* rampant in parts of this country. There are places where blacks can't even buy certain houses, let alone work certain jobs.

And that.

Trash, you need to stop arguing vehemently against tiny, disconnected fragments of other people's posts, and actually make a good-faith effort to understand and connect with the arguments others make. We show you that courtesy; you should do the same.

[Flipside]

I wouldn't use the President too heavily as an example of 'equal opportunities', that's like calling a boat 'Pussy Hunter' and saying it's not sexist because the figurehead is a woman...

[Polpolion]

Moreover, nearly everyone is racist on a subconscious level - we all maintain stereotypic associations between Black individuals and violence, crime, poverty, and stupidity. Until those are gone, the problem is nowhere near solved.

The problem is, I don't think that this is a very solvable issue because of the very fact that it's subconscious. Persuading someone is one thing, but to change the way their mind works is another.

[castor]

I guess the problem solves itself, given enough time (when everything has been thoroughly mixed).

[General Battuta]

Moreover, nearly everyone is racist on a subconscious level - we all maintain stereotypic associations between Black individuals and violence, crime, poverty, and stupidity. Until those are gone, the problem is nowhere near solved.

The problem is, I don't think that this is a very solvable issue because of the very fact that it's subconscious. Persuading someone is one thing, but to change the way their mind works is another.

Not at all. Most people no longer show subconscious associations with respect to, say, Irish Catholics. These would likely have been very prevalent earlier in this century, but now, they've nearly vanished.

These things can change.

[SpardaSon21]

Those attitudes can and will change over time, but preferential treatment isn't going to help change it.  Preferential treatment is just going to make people angry.

EDIT:  And sure, there aren't that many black engineers.  There also aren't that many white American basketball players in the NBA.  Implicit discrimination works both ways.

[Flipside]

Positive discrimination will not work, in my opinion. Simply attaching a prosthetic 'positive' does not change the meaning of the second word, and that is the word that is the problem.

I can understand the thinking behind it, but it's flawed, because it assumes that those who are discriminated against by it don't mind in the slightest. Discrimination of any sort will always lead to anger in those being targeted, and it infuriates me that so called 'politically correct' institutions seem to work hard to widen the conceptual gap between non-white and white employees instead of trying to remove it.