Author Topic: Parental Responsbility  (Read 9437 times)

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Offline Flipside

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Parental Responsbility
Saw this on the BBC:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8168465.stm

And it made me start thinking, some people will blame the gun for this, no gun, no dead kid, simple, but it also got me thinking about parental responsibility.

How irresponsible do you have to be, as a parent, to leave a loaded handgun laying around in a house with 2 very young children in?

It infuriates me sometimes, because people scream, quite rightly in my opinion, that the Government has no right to dictate their choices inside their own house, and then go and prove time and time again that they are incapable of acting with a modicum of sense when trusted.

The US has a lot of fringe groups calling for Government regulation of just about anything from Guns to Music to Video Games, and stuff like this just adds weight to the argument that parents are unable to do their jobs properly without the Government holding their hands.

 

Offline Scotty

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Re: Parental Responsbility
My God, has no one ever heard of a safety?

Quote
It infuriates me sometimes, because people scream, quite rightly in my opinion, that the Government has no right to dictate their choices inside their own house, and then go and prove time and time again that they are incapable of acting with a modicum of sense when trusted.

The US has a lot of fringe groups calling for Government regulation of just about anything from Guns to Music to Video Games, and stuff like this just adds weight to the argument that parents are unable to do their jobs properly without the Government holding their hands.

While I fundamentally disagree with most of the stuff referenced in the second paragraph, it just goes to show that most people are stupid, and can't be trused with shiny toys.

 

Offline Flipside

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Re: Parental Responsbility
I'm not really saying these groups are right or wrong to be honest, just saying that stuff like this, for example, can be used as an argument that parents aren't capable of looking after their children without Government intervention.

For my part, I think that's a bad thing, but that won't stop them trying to say exactly that.

 

Offline BloodEagle

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Re: Parental Responsbility
The article is curiously vague about where the gun was. Still, anything less than a combination locked storage device is inadequate for a home where children at that age live.

I hope this doesn't end in legislation.

 

Offline Flipside

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Re: Parental Responsbility
Even a locked gun-cabinet would have been enough to deter them to be honest. My own guess is under the bed, that seems to be a common favourite.

It won't end in legislation this time, I'm certain, but the more parents are irresponsible with their children like this, the more fuel it adds to the fire.

 

Offline High Max

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Re: Parental Responsbility
Yeah, Flipside, USA has become increasingly crazy and worse in more ways than one and it may end up the way Rome did, but in my honest opinion, that is what happens to selfish materialist societies that deserve that and I don't mind seeing selfish societies collapsing. That is how I feel and I will say how I feel no matter the ridicule. I'm sure many non-American people agree with me and maybe even a few Americans out there somewhere too. I was reading how societies who are too individualistic and don't care much for the common good are the ones that eventually will collapse and the caring for the common good and individuals sacrificing things for it is why Asia is having a growing economy while here it is failing.

Sorry if that seems off topic but I felt a need to say that after reading the first post and being aware of the lack of safety and sanity in USA. Here also lacks discipline and emotional strength and emotional stability overall. Two major weaknesses in a culture among others.

This is interesting:

http://www.city-data.com/forum/great-debates/504303-selfish-america.html

and this:

http://www.studyworld.com/newsite/ReportEssay/Science/Social%5CMoral_Decline_and_its_Effect_On_the_Collapse_of_Nations_-3462102.htm
« Last Edit: July 25, 2009, 01:11:44 am by High Max »
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Offline Flipside

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Re: Parental Responsbility
Well, I'm not really certain this is so much a question of Morality as Responsibility, but the two are linked to a certain degree, there are certain 'morally responsible' things that all people should be expected to do, especially when they have chosen to take on the burden of young children who are wholly dependent on them for food, love, protection and shelter.

 

Offline BloodEagle

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Re: Parental Responsbility

Yeah, Flipside, USA has become increasingly crazy and worse in more ways than one and it may end up the way Rome did, but in my honest opinion, that is what happens to selfish materialist societies that deserve that and I don't mind seeing selfish societies collapsing. That is how I feel and I will say how I feel no matter the ridicule. I'm sure many non-American people agree with me and maybe even a few Americans out there somewhere too. I was reading how societies who are too individualistic and don't care much for the common good are the ones that eventually will collapse and the caring for the common good and individuals sacrificing things for it is why Asia is having a growing economy while here it is failing.

Sorry if that seems off topic but I felt a need to say that after reading the first post and being aware of the lack of safety and sanity in USA. Here also lacks discipline and emotional strength and emotional stability overall. Two major weaknesses in a culture among others.

This is interesting:

http://www.city-data.com/forum/great-debates/504303-selfish-america.html

and this:

http://www.studyworld.com/newsite/ReportEssay/Science/Social%5CMoral_Decline_and_its_Effect_On_the_Collapse_of_Nations_-3462102.htm


.... .... .... The Hell did that come from?

Well, I'm not really certain this is so much a question of Morality as Responsibility, but the two are linked to a certain degree, there are certain 'morally responsible' things that all people should be expected to do, especially when they have chosen to take on the burden of young children who are wholly dependent on them for food, love, protection and shelter.

That seems to be a growing problem worldwide. :/

 

Offline High Max

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Re: Parental Responsbility
Quote from: BloodEagle
.... .... .... The Hell did that come from?
Read my post carefully and all the way through to find out.
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Offline Mr. Vega

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Re: Parental Responsbility
Quote
While I fundamentally disagree with most of the stuff referenced in the second paragraph, it just goes to show that most people are stupid, and can't be trusted with shiny toys.
Oh my god. Shut up. All of you. Seriously. Shut the **** up. Because I am so ****ing tired of this stupid ****ing generalization of society that everyone, and I mean everyone, believes in. It's the greatest fiction of our time that everyone in even a single state, much less country or continent, are essentially the same and shares the same cultural, religious, economic values, and intelligence levels. Well, news flash, THEY DON'T. AT ALL. Even in most families these things very wildly from person to person as to often fail to remotely resemble the parents, and now we're trying to claim that an entire ****ing society of millions of people follows consistent patterns from person to person? NO. External obedience to social rules does not indicate overwhelming agreement and consensus. IT DOES NOT. PERIOD. STOP OVERGENERALIZING. That's what the media does; they've inadvertently spread the greatest lie of modern times: the idea that we are all alike.

So when one idiot father leaves a gun in an unsafe position and when one idiot boy (most young children fear guns, that is a generalization that is actually true) finds the gun and accidentally shoots his sister, THAT DOES NOT MEAN EVERYONE IS STUPID. JUST BECAUSE ONE IDIOT FAMILY DID THIS, AND THE MEDIA REPORTS IT, DOES NOT MEAN EVERYONE IS STUPID. The media selects the worst stories and over-represents them. In fact, considering how biased the media is in reporting the horrifying and disturbing over the boringly happy, people are actually quite responsible in general considering how few times this gets reported. Because you see, IF YOU HAVE MILLIONS OF PEOPLE, THEN SOME OF THEM ARE GOING TO BE STUPID. SOME. MAYBE A VERY SMALL NUMBER - which will then get overrepresented via the media, thus making them look MUCH MORE NUMEROUS THAN THEY REALLY ARE. In fact, if I was a conspiracy theorist, I'd believe the media was intentionally doing this to support elites by trying to prove that the common people are idiots. Whatever; intentional or not, you all have taken it hook, line and sinker.

If I had any serious interest in sociology, which I do not, I would spend years writing a paper that proves that the average deviations between individuals, between different subcultures inside a community, and between different self-contained communities (in a cultural sense, and as much as the word "self-contained" can be used these days) are so staggeringly large as to make genuine generalized assessment across communities essentially meaningless. And I'd win the frelling Nobel Prize, because I'd be right. I'd be the ****ing Werner Heisenberg of sociology. All hail Degeneralization Theory.

Moral of the story: EVERYONE IS NOT THE SAME. DO NOT GENERALIZE. AND DO NOT TRUST THE MEDIA TO SHOW A BALANCED SAMPLE OF SOCIETY (assuming that that's even possible).

I will be very angry if anyone else starts saying "lol, everyone but us and my buddies is stupid." We don't know about everyone else, actually. But we do know thanks to your statement that you are, definitely stupid.

So please stop overgeneralizing people in western society, especially for cynicism's sake. You are wrong. End of story. Bad things will happen if people keep saying this. It will get ugly. I promise. That's one individual saying that. No stupid generalizations at all there. Unless I had like multiple personalities or something. That would be wierd.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2009, 02:20:41 am by Mr. Vega »
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Offline Mr. Vega

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Re: Parental Responsbility
The only way consensus in a society occurs in any meaningful way is via the existence of lasting institutions. And really then it's just the institutions themselves that posses the consensus, which they promptly force upon an atomized society to a limited extent. That's all it is.
Words ought to be a little wild, for they are the assaults of thoughts on the unthinking.
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Offline Flipside

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Re: Parental Responsbility
Which is, to a part, my point, it's not how often this happens that is the real problem, it is the fact that such stupidity always ends up being applied to the public in general, instead of being applied to those who were irresponsible for their kids. Every time the Media reports an incident like this, it just increases the belief that people are genuinely incapable of getting by without laws reaching right into their very homes, for this debate, ignoring what I consider 'common' laws like Murder and Sex crimes.

That is why parental responsiblity is such a big issue in the US, people can be as different as they like, but it is the stupid few who are irresponsible that risk doing the damage.

Edit: Though I would ask that you don't tell people to 'shut up', debate them if you like, but if you silence them, then nothing gets learned in either direction.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2009, 02:26:54 am by Flipside »

 

Offline Liberator

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Re: Parental Responsbility
I really am growing weary of all this disdain and outright hatred for western civilization, particularly America.  If you dislike western American style consumerism "selfish" culture so much, go take a walk.  Seriously, if you think we are so degenerate, I suggest you examine what it would be like to live in a culture you find more palatable.
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Many names, but always me.

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Offline karajorma

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Re: Parental Responsbility
I really am growing weary of all this disdain and outright hatred for western civilization, particularly America.  If you dislike western American style consumerism "selfish" culture so much, go take a walk.  Seriously, if you think we are so degenerate, I suggest you examine what it would be like to live in a culture you find more palatable.

I tend to agree actually. Western culture may have its problems but the people who complain about it most are generally the people who would hate living in any other culture more. While it's fine to complain about the problems and seek a solution to many people go far beyond that into ridiculous comments about how come everyone is stupid but them.
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Offline Inquisitor

Re: Parental Responsbility
Quote
No charges have been filed in relation to either case.

That should change. It is unfortunate that people only take responsibility when there is a deterrent, but I believe demonstrably the case from a social science perspective, at least as it appears to apply to large, western societies, regardless of how MV feels.
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Offline zookeeper

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Re: Parental Responsbility
While it's fine to complain about the problems and seek a solution to many people go far beyond that into ridiculous comments about how come everyone is stupid but them.

When have you last seen someone claim "everyone is stupid" (or something similar) while explicitly excluding themselves? Frankly I can't recall if I ever have.

If someone claims "everyone is stupid" (or something similar) and you then proceed to ask them if they're the exception to the rule, you sure won't get a "yes" for an answer.

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: Parental Responsbility
When have you last seen someone claim "everyone is stupid" (or something similar) while explicitly excluding themselves? Frankly I can't recall if I ever have.

If someone claims "everyone is stupid" (or something similar) and you then proceed to ask them if they're the exception to the rule, you sure won't get a "yes" for an answer.

Let's see then.

it just goes to show that most people are stupid, and can't be trused with shiny toys.

Are you stupid? Can you be trusted with shiny toys?
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Offline zookeeper

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Re: Parental Responsbility
When have you last seen someone claim "everyone is stupid" (or something similar) while explicitly excluding themselves? Frankly I can't recall if I ever have.

If someone claims "everyone is stupid" (or something similar) and you then proceed to ask them if they're the exception to the rule, you sure won't get a "yes" for an answer.

Let's see then.

it just goes to show that most people are stupid, and can't be trused with shiny toys.

Are you stupid? Can you be trusted with shiny toys?

Well, I would have preferred something a bit closer to "everyone" than "most", but I guess that'll have to do...

 

Offline Mika

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Re: Parental Responsbility
Quote
I tend to agree actually. Western culture may have its problems but the people who complain about it most are generally the people who would hate living in any other culture more. While it's fine to complain about the problems and seek a solution to many people go far beyond that into ridiculous comments about how come everyone is stupid but them.

I agree about this.

Actually I think Chinese appeared more selfish when I was there (up to the point I started to feel sick about it). Compared to here, Asian culture in general seems more tough towards misfortunes and failures. Though I do understand the reasons behind that.

EDIT: Several Chinese researchers I have met with told me they would never allow firearms to be available for common people in China. The pointy sharp objects were enough in their childhood.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2009, 08:31:26 am by Mika »
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Offline TrashMan

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Re: Parental Responsbility
1. cultures are different and change over time
2. not all things are equal and not all change is good

THEREFORE:

Not all cultures are equally good. Seems logical enough to me.

That said, when people say that western culture sux, methinks most refer to the US and it's culture.
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