Author Topic: First planet, now to use it in FRED???  (Read 5403 times)

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Offline Razial

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First planet, now to use it in FRED???
After much straining of my brain I finally finished my first planet with GIMP. It is ok but I would like to see what it looks like in FRED. I have saved it as .bmp .tga and .pcx as i'm not sure which can be used (if either)

Do I need to merge it into one of the existing mediavps perhaps? I have tried putting it in data/maps but that doesn't seem to work. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. :)  *scratches head*



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Offline General Battuta

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Re: First planet, now to use it in FRED???
You'll probably need to alter a table so the game knows to look for the image.

 

Offline Razial

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Re: First planet, now to use it in FRED???
Erm I can alter the tables easily enough, but how do I put the altered table back into the vp so it can be read?

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: First planet, now to use it in FRED???
You don't.

Look, go read the Wiki about .tbms, okay?

 

Offline Angelus

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Re: First planet, now to use it in FRED???
put it in your modfolder data-->effects.  

Now, either check in the vp's for a planet name, Planet03 for instance and name it so, it should overwrite the one in the vp's.
The other way is to create a .tbm file and add it there, then put the tbm into modfolder-->data-->tables.

 

Offline The E

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Re: First planet, now to use it in FRED???
For reference, this is the table you want: http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Stars.tbl
If I'm just aching this can't go on
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Offline Razial

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Re: First planet, now to use it in FRED???
I think I modified the tables ok. The planet (JonPlanet1) is now in FRED but After making a mission and loading the game, the planet doesn't show up.

 

Offline Dragon

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Re: First planet, now to use it in FRED???
Make sure you're running a mod that contains your planet.
If you're using older build (you shouldn't) check if you have "use jpg/tga textures" selected in launcher.

 

Offline Angelus

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Re: First planet, now to use it in FRED???
I think I modified the tables ok. The planet (JonPlanet1) is now in FRED but After making a mission and loading the game, the planet doesn't show up.


Use the tga version.

If it still doesn't work, remove the modified table, and name the planet planet03, then try it again.

 

Offline Rodo

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Re: First planet, now to use it in FRED???
save always in .DDS (use DTX3).

you got your table alright with the name of the file?... if so check this:

you are probably runing FS2 with the "mediavps" as mod, in order to replace the mediavps files you need to place the planet file in the folder "data/effects" ON the directory of your selected mod, so you go to the folder mediavps on the root directory of FS2 and you create those two folders and place the planet.

You can see the planet on FRED2 because FRED is using the retail files as mod, but not your FS2 engine ^^


If you did correctly then when you go to play the mission the planet will load (asuming you did not use a incredibly huge file, which sometimes causes the game to crash, some other times it doesn't load, a file of 10MB is already too big...scale it down if so).

PD: about the planet, you won't need the background with the stars for the game, next time just save the planet on a transparent layer, it will make the planet look better (when you place the planet with that background it will cover the skybox on the back)
« Last Edit: July 28, 2009, 09:44:13 pm by Rodo »
el hombre vicio...

 

Offline Razial

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Re: First planet, now to use it in FRED???
Quote
save always in .DDS (use DTX3).

I'm not sure how to save in .dds dude? I found one program for converting but it doesn't work properly. Do you have a program that can do this?

 

Offline Angelus

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Re: First planet, now to use it in FRED???
Quote
save always in .DDS (use DTX3).

I'm not sure how to save in .dds dude? I found one program for converting but it doesn't work properly. Do you have a program that can do this?


http://developer.amd.com/gpu/compressonator/Pages/default.aspx

This one.

 

Offline Rodo

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Re: First planet, now to use it in FRED???
gimp saves in DDS, not sure if you had to download a plugin for that.. just google "Gimp .DDS" and that should do it... anyways, when you save on the lower part of the window you'll see a "+" button, press it and a drop down list will apear showing the different file extentions to save.
el hombre vicio...

 

Offline sigtau

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Re: First planet, now to use it in FRED???
I have a plugin for that, although I think it's supported natively now
Who uses forum signatures anymore?

 

Offline Razial

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Re: First planet, now to use it in FRED???
Right got a planet or so working in FRED now and got the .dds plugin for GIMP :)  I just saved one of my planets in GIMP format and the file is like 36mb compared with the 800kb jpeg and 1mb tga. You said over 10mb is too big for FS2 to process, does it format it somehow in game, or do i need to change another setting?

 

Offline The E

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Re: First planet, now to use it in FRED???
Erm. You know that the gimp format, with all its redundancies, layer information and general uncompressedness, isn't usable by the engine? dds shouldn't use much more space than the jpg image, really.
If I'm just aching this can't go on
I came from chasing dreams to feel alone
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I really need lifе to touch me
--Evergrey, Where August Mourns

 

Offline Rodo

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Re: First planet, now to use it in FRED???
36MB... well my first planets where also that big, I even got a 60 MB planet (jupiter) working ingame, but after resizing pass x5 on FRED the game crashed or did not show the planet at all

Here's the deal with DDS (AFAIK):

When saving on .DDS always try to make the image a power of two like...

512 x 512
1024 x 1024
2048 x 2048

and so on, this way when GIMP saves on .DDS it also compacts it in a much more smaller file, this is the strong point of using .DDS files, I'm guessing that if you resize your actual picture to 1024x1024 you'll get the same file in the range of... 1MB / 3 MB max.
It's a good idea also to save with mipmaps generated.

EDIT: oh and I forgot, before saving merge all visible layer down! you don't need a multiple layer image loading in game... hell I'm not even sure if it will load properly if it's saved that way in FS engine.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2009, 07:11:44 am by Rodo »
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Offline Razial

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Re: First planet, now to use it in FRED???
Quote
36MB... well my first planets where also that big, I even got a 60 MB planet (jupiter) working ingame, but after resizing pass x5 on FRED the game crashed or did not show the planet at all

Here's the deal with DDS (AFAIK):

When saving on .DDS always try to make the image a power of two like...

512 x 512
1024 x 1024
2048 x 2048

and so on, this way when GIMP saves on .DDS it also compacts it in a much more smaller file, this is the strong point of using .DDS files, I'm guessing that if you resize your actual picture to 1024x1024 you'll get the same file in the range of... 1MB / 3 MB max.
It's a good idea also to save with mipmaps generated.

EDIT: oh and I forgot, before saving merge all visible layer down! you don't need a multiple layer image loading in game... hell I'm not even sure if it will load properly if it's saved that way in FS engine.

Thanks dude, I got the right file size now, but it is not seen in FRED. Are you sure FRED can recognise dds background images, as most of the planets and nebulas you use in FRED are bitmap i think. I have put my file (Mars2.dds) in the tables and copied the file (in dds format) into my mods data/effects and freesspace data/effects and freespace data/models folders just to be sure but it still isn't being recognised.

 

Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: First planet, now to use it in FRED???
Thanks dude, I got the right file size now, but it is not seen in FRED. Are you sure FRED can recognise dds background images, as most of the planets and nebulas you use in FRED are bitmap i think. I have put my file (Mars2.dds) in the tables and copied the file (in dds format) into my mods data/effects and freesspace data/effects and freespace data/models folders just to be sure but it still isn't being recognised.


FRED2_Open does recognize DDS textures as far as I know. After all, I think it uses the same rendering engine as FS2, but in a mission builder environment.

The way I started getting my planets into FS2 to see how they looked was as follows: I made a mod that simply replaced one of the planets used in retail FS2 mission (usually Surrender, Belisarius!) and the file name was planeta.*

When I later learned about making a modular planet-str.tbm file, I started using that, but for getting the game to see the planet, making sure it's in a correct format without black border around it and without being all-round transparent, a replacement mod is the single most easiest and fastest way to do it. I still do that occasionally if I can't be bothered to make a table, since renaming an image file to planetA.dds is a lot faster than making a modular table that adds it to the game. Not a good solution for anything you release, but for WIP it works smashingly.

As far as formats go, you should use DDS, or possibly in work-in-progress phase TGA if you don't want to bother with DDS conversion. Important thing is that you work in lossless formats (PSD, XCF, TGA, bitmap) and only when you have it ready, try converting it into a DXT compressed DDS file. It will lose some of the quality, but usually so little that it's better to use a compressed rather than non-compressed DDS file, although the latter is an option for certain image types (usually stuff with a lot of smooth gradient transitions rather than sharp, abrupt changes).

Also, it's important to realize that DDS is not as much a format as it is a container that can hold several types of image formats. In addition to uncompressed DDS files (rarely used, but very useful in certain conditions where the DXT compression doesn't work favourably), FS2_Open can use DXT1, DXT3 and DXT5 compressed formats. DXT1 should be used when the image file does not need transparency or uses additive blending (ie. black is transparent). This kind of things would be the sun bitmaps, nebula bitmaps and most if not all diffuse textures (with the exception of those that have cockpit glass texture integrated into them).

DXT3 and DXT5 are compression formats that include alpha channel, and should be used whenever you need alpha blending for the image file. This means stuff like planets where you want the planet NOT to be transparent, but the edges and atmosphere should be so. You also need an alpha channel in shinemaps (assuming you want to control environmental reflectivity, which you usually do) and most definitely in normal maps, at least the way it's being dealt with now. The only difference between DXT3 and DXT5 compressions is the way they deal with the alpha channel; if I remember correctly, DXT3 alpha is better suited for more abrupt changes (like nameplates where the text is opaque and has quite sharp borders) and DXT5 alpha is better suited for things that aren't as clearly defined - like, maybe, an atmosphere that has more gradient shift from opaque to transparent.

DXT compression typically reduces the memory footprint of a texture to either 1/6th (DXT1) or 1/4th (DXT3, DXT5). It's important to notice that even if you can have much smaller file size with PCX or JPG, or even run-length encoded TGA files, the memory requirements for all of these are the same regardless of the file size.

This is because the graphics processing unit can not deal with PCX, JPG or TGA files directly and needs them converted into uncompressed bitmap format, which takes a fixed amount of memory depending on amount of channels and resolution. In other words, a PCX file with resolution of 512^2 takes the exact same amount of memory as a TGA file of same resolution (although if there's an alpha channel involved, TGA takes a third more of memory).

DDS, or Direct Draw Surface, is different because the GPU can use them directly from the hard disk drive with no need for any conversion. Therefore, video ram is significantly saved.

Another reason why you should be using DDS format is that it offers a way to include mipmaps in the texture, which (although increasing the file size) reduces the need for processing cycles used to create mipmaps in the fly, so to speak. So, even if you end up unable to use DXT compression, you should still use DDS format (u888 for RGB files, u8888 for RGBA files) because of the mip maps.
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Offline Razial

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Re: First planet, now to use it in FRED???
Thanks Herra dude!! :)  I was wondering about which settings to choose when saving in .dds that has def cleared it up :)  I think now I have got into a bit of a jumble as I have maybe 3 mods running from different folders, I also have multiples of files and tables in different sub-sections of my main FS2 directory just to make sure they files are recognised lol. Could you tell me where I need to have an altered table file (if at all) and where I need to have the new .dds planet files to which it refers?

I have been told so many different (not necessarily wrong) things from people I think I may have muddles quite a few of them up xD