Author Topic: Balance(Bugs) Vanilla vs SCP (Philosophy?)  (Read 16896 times)

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Re: Balance(Bugs) Vanilla vs SCP (Philosophy?)
I've been waiting! :p

It honestly wasn't my intent to upset anyone and I'm glad we cleared it up, I've had lots of theories about what 'might' be wrong and such, but ultimately I think it's going to come down to isolating the subtle AI behaviour changes one at a time.

The most impacting Multiplayer change (which is also actually seen in single player too on higher difficulties), is that the AI have a penchant for pointing themselves at the players target reticle, and never ever stopping, to the point that if the human doesn't move out the way or kill the AI the AI will just ram the human and keep firing (this is without MVPs and on the same missions the behaviour is absent on retail builds), the AI is so accurate and so 'glued' to the lead reticle of your ship it's not actually worth it (even in a light fighter) to try to dodge the AI's aim, even at my skill level I can't reliably enough dodge their shots using tricks that would send any pilot in the world out of their chair, because of this behaviour well balanced missions in multi are currently very-difficult-to-impossible (though subsequent to these posts we have started being able to beat these missions, either by taking the AI on head to head one at a time or running away and avoiding them as much as possible whilst completing objectives, but anyway) due to the number of enemies that inhabit multi missions (*only the busiest single player missions match up to a typical multi mission).

- This change, we had assumed came from the AI tables, but this turned out to be untrue.

A great many people on IRC helped out looking, but it wasn't until Wanderer started throwing old builds at me (which I tested in quick succession) that we managed to lock down the problem a bit, we still don't know what caused it, but the behavioural change is between 3.6.7 and build some time later, unfortunately we ran out of builds - there was still +-400-500 revisions to check through.
The change is very distinctive, AI - even on insane have a tendency to 'flinch' whilst you fire at them (this lowers the incoming DPS on the player AND upsets AI aim which becomes more accurate the longer it's pointed at a target), this twitch or flinch in the SCP builds this behaviour is at the very best 'extremely, extremely rare', and at worst - non-existent (not actually true, since I've seen it, once, couldn't repeat it with the same ship on the same mission after trying dozens of times, though).

I'd previously assumed it was stuff like super_attack triggering and 'staying on', because other aspects of AI behaviour had remained less changed.


For a concise list of observed changes (not extensive but all I can think of atm);

AI; shield management has dramatically increased.
AI; "not flinching" leading to super-AI accuracy, even to the point where they push the turning limits on their ship.
AI; missile evasion / CM launching is greatly improved (leading to dumbfire missiles on occasion (CM fired almost simultaneously to Missile launch, doesn't bother me much since I don't use aspect seekers if given the choice but I imagine it could annoy some people :P)
AI; Now bombs like a player (well, an ok one), leading to fleets of incoming bombs from wings of bombers (they fire -> change bank, -> fire, etc)
AI; Shivans use "slide" far, far more effectively on some missions haven't worked out what causes it solidly (*looks like collisions and/or target swapping mostly) but they can circle strafe a player.

Subsystem damage - seems a bit high (possibly due to more CPU time free to calculate it), this is most obvious with beams (AAA) but that may also be related to the lack of beamwhack, it is however visible with primaries that have smaller projectiles (subach/kayser/SDG) as well.

Collision damage - especially subsystem damage from collisions seems to be much more punishing, especially on multilplayer (collision physics was always a bit screwed up on multi, the client had a tendency to take a little more damage than the host, but at the moment this has been exacerbated massively - skimming a capital ship at very low speed can leave your fighter on very little hull, or even destroy your ship), it's very difficulty to furball properly because of it (*ramming used to be a tactical decision, now it's near suicide).

Bombs - seem to be significantly harder to shoot down on Multi (their tracking isn't correct - even lag adjusted), they also seem to be very slightly harder to shoot down from behind on Single/As host, but on multi it's virtually impossible, they also don't always report if they have been shot down to the clients - which leaves the clients chasing bombs which aren't there.

Beam accuracy - now this one might raise a few eyebrows, but beams were somewhat inaccurate at the best of times when they were introduced, beams could never be dodged or evaded (*'cept by ducking around a corner whilst they powered up), they either hit, or they miss, currently they seem to use the normal AI code for aiming, and thus have increased weapon accuracy, leading to them virtually never (*never in some cases)missing, when they would have previously missed ~30% of the time.

SCP builds seem to randomly completely lose sync between host and clients (very rare) - it used to happen with laggier clients on Retail, but currently it happens even with sub 100 pings.

The client sometimes crash when the host jumps whilst the client is in respawn (about to get the respawn screen, after their ship has exploded) - Believing this to be a retail bug, but I don't really remember, also other than this condition I'm not sure exactly what causes this.

Another old bug that's gotten slightly worse; Secondaries on ships that are warping in (trebs at a Ravana front beams for example) seem to 'miss' for no discernible reason other than the capships speed is over ~100 or whatever the actual speed is (hard to judge sometimes, but it seems to be just over 100 that this behaviour begins).

Debris - another old bug, not really one that has been made worse by SCP but one that would be greatly appreciated to be fixed. On the host side, Debris is rendered correctly, however on the client side, it's rendered completely differently, different sized debris, different directions of travel, and the real ones obviously are totally invisible, so clients end up 'dying for no reason' on occasion because debris has clouted them in the face.

..I know there's a couple I've missed, but there's a descriptive list of the ones I remember right now. :<


- sorry I didn't reply to your PM on IRC btw Goober, I was sleepin' peacefully :p


*Edited to try to make the subject of each slightly easier to read.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2009, 07:39:37 am by QuantumDelta »
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Offline Goober5000

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Re: Balance(Bugs) Vanilla vs SCP (Philosophy?)
A great many people on IRC helped out looking, but it wasn't until Wanderer started throwing old builds at me (which I tested in quick succession) that we managed to lock down the problem a bit, we still don't know what caused it, but the behavioural change is between 3.6.7 and build some time later, unfortunately we ran out of builds - there was still +-400-500 revisions to check through.
Aha!  Excellent work; this is precisely what needs to be done to track down the problems. :)  It basically comes down to three steps:

1) Identify what is wrong (which, as you have said, is sometimes harder than one thinks)
2) Pinpoint the revision where the behavior changed
3) Fix the bug, or tie it to an AI flag

Running out of builds is problematic but not a game breaker.  What you need to do is schedule a time when you and another coder (or anyone who can check stuff out of CVS and compile builds) can be on the #scp IRC channel.  Then you narrow the time period down using the divide and conquer strategy.

 

Offline The E

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Re: Balance(Bugs) Vanilla vs SCP (Philosophy?)
Right, I tried to do a few builds, but couldn't get it to compile. VS2008 is too modern to do it, apparently; someone with VC 2005 or something close to it should try it.
Anyway, the svn log tells me that between revision 2211 and 2605 (the range that it was narrowed down to), there were 29 commits that altered files in the ai/ directory.
Code: [Select]
Revision: 2604
Author: wmcoolmon
Date: 05:18:55, Freitag, 6. Januar 2006
Message:
turret-target-order SEXPs, ship thrusters
----
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/ai/aiturret.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/parse/sexp.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/parse/sexp.h
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/ship/ship.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/ship/ship.h

Revision: 2571
Author: wmcoolmon
Date: 09:08:42, Donnerstag, 29. Dezember 2005
Message:
Codebase commit, most notably including objecttypes.tbl
----
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/ai/aicode.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/ai/aigoals.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/ai/aigoals.h
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/ai/aiturret.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/debris/debris.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/fireball/fireballs.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/freespace2/freespace.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/fs2open_pxo/Client.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/fs2open_pxo/TCP_Client.cpp
Added : /trunk/fs2_open/code/globalincs/def_files.cpp
Added : /trunk/fs2_open/code/globalincs/def_files.h
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/globalincs/globals.h
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/globalincs/pstypes.h
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/graphics/2d.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/graphics/2d.h
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/graphics/gropengl.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/graphics/gropengltnl.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/hud/hudparse.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/hud/hudsquadmsg.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/hud/hudsquadmsg.h
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/hud/hudtarget.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/iff_defs/iff_defs.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/io/keycontrol.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/lab/lab.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/menuui/barracks.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/menuui/techmenu.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/mission/missioncampaign.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/mission/missioncampaign.h
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/mission/missionhotkey.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/mission/missionparse.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/mission/missionparse.h
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/missionui/missionbrief.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/missionui/missiondebrief.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/missionui/missionscreencommon.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/missionui/missionscreencommon.h
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/missionui/missionshipchoice.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/missionui/missionweaponchoice.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/model/model.h
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/model/modelinterp.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/model/modelread.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/nebula/neb.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/network/multi_campaign.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/network/multi_ingame.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/network/multi_obj.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/network/multi_pinfo.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/network/multimsgs.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/network/multiteamselect.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/network/multiutil.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/object/collideshipship.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/object/objectsort.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/parse/parselo.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/parse/parselo.h
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/parse/sexp.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/playerman/managepilot.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/playerman/playercontrol.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/ship/afterburner.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/ship/shield.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/ship/ship.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/ship/ship.h
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/ship/shipfx.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/species_defs/species_defs.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/starfield/starfield.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/stats/scoring.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/stats/scoring.h
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/weapon/beam.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/weapon/flak.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/weapon/flak.h
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/weapon/weapon.h
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/weapon/weapons.cpp

Revision: 2545
Author: taylor
Date: 05:32:44, Donnerstag, 22. Dezember 2005
Message:
GCC knows that fix == int so it hates the utility functions here, for sanity sake just rename them to type specific to avoid rampant casting
----
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/ai/ai_profiles.cpp

Revision: 2506
Author: taylor
Date: 04:17:48, Dienstag, 6. Dezember 2005
Message:
cleanup some debug log messages:
  note that a nprintf() with "Warning" or "General" is basically the same thing as mprintf()
  make sure that OpenAL init failures always get to the debug log
----
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/ai/ai_profiles.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/cmdline/cmdline.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/hud/hudparse.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/lab/wmcgui.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/menuui/techmenu.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/parse/scripting.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/ship/ship.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/sound/ds.cpp

Revision: 2505
Author: taylor
Date: 04:15:47, Dienstag, 6. Dezember 2005
Message:
add a couple of Assert()'s that it doesn't otherwise check for
----
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/ai/aicode.cpp

Revision: 2488
Author: wmcoolmon
Date: 20:07:49, Sonntag, 4. Dezember 2005
Message:
Final commit of codebase
----
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/ai/aicode.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/bmpman/bmpman.h
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/cmeasure/cmeasure.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/cmeasure/cmeasure.h
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/freespace2/freespace.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/hud/hudtarget.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/io/keycontrol.cpp
Added : /trunk/fs2_open/code/lab
Added : /trunk/fs2_open/code/lab/lab.h
Added : /trunk/fs2_open/code/lab/lua.cpp
Added : /trunk/fs2_open/code/lab/wmcgui.cpp
Added : /trunk/fs2_open/code/lab/wmcgui.h
Added : /trunk/fs2_open/code/menuui/storybook.cpp
Added : /trunk/fs2_open/code/menuui/storybook.h
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/missionui/missionshipchoice.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/model/model.h
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/nebula/neb.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/network/multimsgs.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/object/object.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/object/object.h
Added : /trunk/fs2_open/code/parse/lua.cpp
Added : /trunk/fs2_open/code/parse/lua.h
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/parse/parselo.cpp
Added : /trunk/fs2_open/code/parse/python.cpp
Added : /trunk/fs2_open/code/parse/python.h
Added : /trunk/fs2_open/code/parse/scripting.cpp
Added : /trunk/fs2_open/code/parse/scripting.h

Revision: 2478
Author: Goober5000
Date: 10:08:44, Donnerstag, 24. November 2005
Message:
bah, forgot a colon
--Goober5000
----
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/ai/ai_profiles.cpp

Revision: 2477
Author: Goober5000
Date: 09:46:11, Donnerstag, 24. November 2005
Message:
* cleaned up mission_do_departure
  * fixed a hidden crash (array index being -1; would only
be triggered for ships w/o subspace drives under certain conditions)
  * removed finding a new fighterbay target because it might screw up missions
  * improved clarity, code flow, and readability :)
* added custom AI flag for disabling warpouts if navigation subsystem fails
--Goober5000
----
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/ai/ai.h
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/ai/ai_profiles.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/ai/ai_profiles.h
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/ai/aicode.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/io/keycontrol.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/mission/missionparse.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/ship/ship.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/ship/ship.h
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/ship/subsysdamage.h

Revision: 2476
Author: taylor
Date: 08:27:14, Donnerstag, 24. November 2005
Message:
fix fred2 startup crash (we probably need to Assert() this case so it doesn't easily happen again)
----
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/ai/ai_profiles.cpp

Revision: 2464
Author: phreak
Date: 01:46:26, Mittwoch, 23. November 2005
Message:
Calculate player repair timer when the support ship docks to him.
----
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/ai/aicode.cpp

Revision: 2457
Author: taylor
Date: 16:01:18, Montag, 21. November 2005
Message:
little cleaner, lot more friendly to 64-bit archs (long type is usually 64-bit there)
----
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/ai/ai_profiles.cpp

Revision: 2454
Author: Goober5000
Date: 04:51:03, Montag, 21. November 2005
Message:
remove old files
--Goober5000
----
Deleted : /trunk/fs2_open/code/ai/ai_settings.cpp
Deleted : /trunk/fs2_open/code/ai/ai_settings.h

Revision: 2453
Author: Goober5000
Date: 04:47:51, Montag, 21. November 2005
Message:
bah and double bah
--Goober5000
----
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/ai/ai_profiles.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/ai/aicode.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/parse/parselo.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/parse/parselo.h

Revision: 2451
Author: Goober5000
Date: 03:43:37, Montag, 21. November 2005
Message:
change from "setting" to "profile"; this way makes more sense
--Goober5000
----
Added : /trunk/fs2_open/code/ai/ai_profiles.cpp
Added : /trunk/fs2_open/code/ai/ai_profiles.h
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/ai/aibig.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/ai/aicode.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/ai/aiturret.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/asteroid/asteroid.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/cmeasure/cmeasure.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/freespace2/freespace.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/hud/hudets.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/mission/missionparse.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/mission/missionparse.h
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/object/object.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/ship/afterburner.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/ship/ship.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/ship/shiphit.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/weapon/beam.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/weapon/weapons.cpp

Revision: 2450
Author: Goober5000
Date: 02:53:57, Montag, 21. November 2005
Message:
add a flag to re-enable shockwaves damaging subsystems (from FS1)
--Goober5000
----
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/ai/ai_settings.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/ai/ai_settings.h
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/ship/shiphit.cpp

Revision: 2449
Author: Goober5000
Date: 01:52:19, Montag, 21. November 2005
Message:
whoops
--Goober5000
----
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/ai/ai_settings.cpp

Revision: 2448
Author: Goober5000
Date: 01:50:02, Montag, 21. November 2005
Message:
add ai_settings.tbl
--Goober5000
----
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/ai/ai.h
Added : /trunk/fs2_open/code/ai/ai_settings.cpp
Added : /trunk/fs2_open/code/ai/ai_settings.h
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/ai/aibig.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/ai/aicode.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/ai/aiturret.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/asteroid/asteroid.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/cmdline/cmdline.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/cmdline/cmdline.h
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/cmeasure/cmeasure.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/freespace2/freespace.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/hud/hudets.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/mission/missionparse.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/mission/missionparse.h
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/object/object.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/parse/parselo.h
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/ship/afterburner.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/ship/ship.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/ship/ship.h
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/ship/shiphit.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/weapon/beam.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/weapon/weapons.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/projects/MSVC_6/code.dsp

Revision: 2415
Author: wmcoolmon
Date: 02:04:02, Dienstag, 8. November 2005
Message:
More warnings instead of Int3s/Asserts, better Lua scripting, weapons_expl.tbl is no longer needed nor read, added "$Disarmed ImpactSnd:", fire-beam fix
----
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/ai/aicode.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/bmpman/bmpman.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/bmpman/bmpman.h
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/freespace2/freespace.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/gamesnd/eventmusic.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/globalincs/pstypes.h
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/globalincs/windebug.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/hud/hudparse.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/mission/missionbriefcommon.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/model/modelread.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/network/multimsgs.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/object/collideshipweapon.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/parse/lua.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/parse/lua.h
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/parse/parselo.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/parse/parselo.h
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/parse/scripting.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/parse/sexp.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/ship/ship.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/weapon/beam.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/weapon/weapon.h
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/weapon/weapons.cpp

Revision: 2387
Author: wmcoolmon
Date: 07:45:00, Sonntag, 30. Oktober 2005
Message:
Codebase commit - nebula.tbl, scripting, new dinky explosion/shockwave stuff, moving muzzle flashes
----
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/ai/aicode.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/ai/aiturret.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/cmdline/cmdline.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/debris/debris.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/freespace2/freespace.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/graphics/2d.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/graphics/2d.h
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/graphics/font.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/lab/lab.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/model/modelinterp.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/nebula/neb.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/network/multimsgs.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/object/collideshipweapon.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/object/collideweaponweapon.cpp
Added : /trunk/fs2_open/code/parse/lua.cpp
Added : /trunk/fs2_open/code/parse/lua.h
Added : /trunk/fs2_open/code/parse/python.cpp
Added : /trunk/fs2_open/code/parse/python.h
Added : /trunk/fs2_open/code/parse/scripting.cpp
Added : /trunk/fs2_open/code/parse/scripting.h
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/ship/ship.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/ship/shipfx.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/weapon/flak.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/weapon/flak.h
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/weapon/muzzleflash.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/weapon/muzzleflash.h
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/weapon/shockwave.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/weapon/shockwave.h
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/weapon/weapon.h
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/weapon/weapons.cpp
Added : /trunk/fs2_open/lua
Added : /trunk/fs2_open/lua/lapi.c
Added : /trunk/fs2_open/lua/lapi.h
Added : /trunk/fs2_open/lua/lauxlib.c
Added : /trunk/fs2_open/lua/lauxlib.h
Added : /trunk/fs2_open/lua/lbaselib.c
Added : /trunk/fs2_open/lua/lcode.c
Added : /trunk/fs2_open/lua/lcode.h
Added : /trunk/fs2_open/lua/ldblib.c
Added : /trunk/fs2_open/lua/ldebug.c
Added : /trunk/fs2_open/lua/ldebug.h
Added : /trunk/fs2_open/lua/ldo.c
Added : /trunk/fs2_open/lua/ldo.h
Added : /trunk/fs2_open/lua/ldump.c
Added : /trunk/fs2_open/lua/lfunc.c
Added : /trunk/fs2_open/lua/lfunc.h
Added : /trunk/fs2_open/lua/lgc.c
Added : /trunk/fs2_open/lua/lgc.h
Added : /trunk/fs2_open/lua/liolib.c
Added : /trunk/fs2_open/lua/llex.c
Added : /trunk/fs2_open/lua/llex.h
Added : /trunk/fs2_open/lua/llimits.h
Added : /trunk/fs2_open/lua/lmathlib.c
Added : /trunk/fs2_open/lua/lmem.c
Added : /trunk/fs2_open/lua/lmem.h
Added : /trunk/fs2_open/lua/loadlib.c
Added : /trunk/fs2_open/lua/lobject.c
Added : /trunk/fs2_open/lua/lobject.h
Added : /trunk/fs2_open/lua/lopcodes.c
Added : /trunk/fs2_open/lua/lopcodes.h
Added : /trunk/fs2_open/lua/lparser.c
Added : /trunk/fs2_open/lua/lparser.h
Added : /trunk/fs2_open/lua/lstate.c
Added : /trunk/fs2_open/lua/lstate.h
Added : /trunk/fs2_open/lua/lstring.c
Added : /trunk/fs2_open/lua/lstring.h
Added : /trunk/fs2_open/lua/lstrlib.c
Added : /trunk/fs2_open/lua/ltable.c
Added : /trunk/fs2_open/lua/ltable.h
Added : /trunk/fs2_open/lua/ltablib.c
Added : /trunk/fs2_open/lua/ltests.c
Added : /trunk/fs2_open/lua/ltm.c
Added : /trunk/fs2_open/lua/ltm.h
Added : /trunk/fs2_open/lua/lua.h
Added : /trunk/fs2_open/lua/lualib.h
Added : /trunk/fs2_open/lua/lundump.c
Added : /trunk/fs2_open/lua/lundump.h
Added : /trunk/fs2_open/lua/lvm.c
Added : /trunk/fs2_open/lua/lvm.h
Added : /trunk/fs2_open/lua/lzio.c
Added : /trunk/fs2_open/lua/lzio.h
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/projects/MSVC_7/Freespace2.sln
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/projects/MSVC_7/Freespace2.vcproj
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/projects/MSVC_7/code.vcproj

Revision: 2386
Author: Goober5000
Date: 00:09:31, Sonntag, 30. Oktober 2005
Message:
multiple ship docking implemented for initially docked ships
--Goober5000
----
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/ai/aigoals.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/gamesnd/eventmusic.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/hud/hudsquadmsg.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/hud/hudwingmanstatus.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/mission/missionhotkey.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/mission/missionparse.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/mission/missionparse.h
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/missionui/missionscreencommon.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/missionui/missionshipchoice.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/missionui/missionweaponchoice.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/network/multi_ingame.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/network/multimsgs.cpp
Added : /trunk/fs2_open/code/object/parseobjectdock.cpp
Added : /trunk/fs2_open/code/object/parseobjectdock.h
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/parse/sexp.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/ship/ship.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/ship/ship.h
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/ship/shipfx.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/projects/MSVC_6/code.dsp

Revision: 2347
Author: Goober5000
Date: 00:22:41, Sonntag, 23. Oktober 2005
Message:
rolled back UnknownPlayer's commit
--Goober5000
----
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/ai/aibig.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/ai/aicode.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/ai/aiturret.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/model/modelread.cpp

Revision: 2344
Author: unknownplayer
Date: 06:28:17, Samstag, 22. Oktober 2005
Message:
Added -UseNewAI command line option to force the game to always use
the SCP AI changes. As of now there's some problem in gr_d3d_set_render_target
that crashes the game when it gets to a mission.
----
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/ai/aibig.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/ai/aicode.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/ai/aiturret.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/cmdline/cmdline.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/cmdline/cmdline.h
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/graphics/grd3dbmpman.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/model/modelread.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/projects/MSVC_2003/Freespace2.vcproj

Revision: 2310
Author: Goober5000
Date: 09:22:24, Freitag, 14. Oktober 2005
Message:
removed an unneeded parameter and renamed some stuff
--Goober5000
----
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/ai/aiturret.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/hud/hudartillery.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/network/multimsgs.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/ship/ship.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/weapon/weapon.h
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/weapon/weapons.cpp

Revision: 2298
Author: taylor
Date: 19:21:11, Montag, 10. Oktober 2005
Message:
remove NO_NETWORK
----
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/ai/aicode.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/ai/aigoals.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/ai/aiturret.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/asteroid/asteroid.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/bmpman/bmpman.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/debris/debris.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/fs2open_pxo/Client.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/fs2open_pxo/TCP_Client.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/fs2open_pxo/TCP_Socket.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/fs2open_pxo/udpsocket.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/globalincs/globals.h
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/hud/hud.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/hud/hudartillery.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/hud/hudconfig.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/hud/hudescort.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/hud/hudlock.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/hud/hudmessage.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/hud/hudobserver.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/hud/hudreticle.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/hud/hudshield.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/hud/hudsquadmsg.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/hud/hudtarget.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/hud/hudtargetbox.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/hud/hudwingmanstatus.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/irc/irc.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/menuui/barracks.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/menuui/mainhallmenu.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/menuui/optionsmenu.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/menuui/optionsmenumulti.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/menuui/playermenu.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/mission/missiongoals.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/mission/missionlog.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/mission/missionlog.h
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/mission/missionmessage.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/mission/missionparse.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/mission/missiontraining.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/missionui/chatbox.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/missionui/missionbrief.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/missionui/missiondebrief.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/missionui/missionpause.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/missionui/missionscreencommon.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/missionui/missionshipchoice.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/missionui/missionweaponchoice.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/missionui/redalert.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/nebula/neblightning.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/network/fs2ox.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/network/multi.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/network/multi_campaign.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/network/multi_data.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/network/multi_dogfight.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/network/multi_endgame.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/network/multi_ingame.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/network/multi_kick.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/network/multi_log.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/network/multi_obj.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/network/multi_obj.h
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/network/multi_observer.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/network/multi_oo.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/network/multi_options.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/network/multi_pause.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/network/multi_pinfo.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/network/multi_ping.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/network/multi_pmsg.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/network/multi_rate.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/network/multi_respawn.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/network/multi_team.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/network/multi_update.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/network/multi_voice.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/network/multi_xfer.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/network/multilag.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/network/multimsgs.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/network/multiteamselect.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/network/multiui.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/network/multiutil.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/network/psnet.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/network/psnet2.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/network/stand_gui-unix.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/network/stand_gui.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/object/collideshipweapon.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/object/object.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/parse/sexp.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/playerman/managepilot.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/playerman/playercontrol.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/popup/popupdead.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/radar/radar.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/radar/radarorb.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/ship/afterburner.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/ship/awacs.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/ship/shield.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/ship/ship.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/ship/ship.h
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/ship/shipfx.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/stats/scoring.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/stats/stats.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/weapon/beam.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/weapon/emp.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/configure.ac

Revision: 2289
Author: wmcoolmon
Date: 11:13:29, Sonntag, 9. Oktober 2005
Message:
Added warpin/warpout speed override values to ships.tbl
----
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/ai/aicode.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/object/collidedebrisship.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/object/collideshipship.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/ship/ship.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/ship/ship.h
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/ship/shipfx.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/ship/shipfx.h

Revision: 2285
Author: wmcoolmon
Date: 05:13:13, Sonntag, 9. Oktober 2005
Message:
Much better laser weapon/pof handling, removed a couple unneccessary
warnings (used to try and track down a bug)
----
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/ai/aicode.cpp
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/weapon/weapon.h
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/weapon/weapons.cpp

Revision: 2282
Author: wmcoolmon
Date: 21:29:08, Samstag, 8. Oktober 2005
Message:
Attempt to fix crash bug on 'Mystery of the Trinity'
----
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/ai/aicode.cpp

Revision: 2281
Author: wmcoolmon
Date: 20:46:38, Samstag, 8. Oktober 2005
Message:
Error checking for dock error
----
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/ai/aicode.cpp

Revision: 2228
Author: Goober5000
Date: 03:41:21, Samstag, 24. September 2005
Message:
this isn't needed because of is_support_allowed
--Goober5000
----
Modified : /trunk/fs2_open/code/ai/aicode.cpp
If I'm just aching this can't go on
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There must be changes, miss to feel strong
I really need lifе to touch me
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Offline Thaeris

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Re: Balance(Bugs) Vanilla vs SCP (Philosophy?)
This is a good read. Interesting to think that the SCP accidentally enhanced the hostile AI...
"trolls are clearly social rejects and therefore should be isolated from society, or perhaps impaled."

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"Look on the bright side, how many release dates have been given for Doomsday, and it still isn't out yet.

It's the Duke Nukem Forever of prophecies..."


"Jesus saves.

Everyone else takes normal damage.
"

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Offline Goober5000

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Re: Balance(Bugs) Vanilla vs SCP (Philosophy?)
ah.  The Sync problem was traced down to a WMC blunderbuss commit; I wouldn't be surprised if this were traced down too.

Next time I'm on IRC I'll work on this, assuming someone hasn't by then.

 

Offline TopAce

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Re: Balance(Bugs) Vanilla vs SCP (Philosophy?)
So basically all these balance issues are because of a simple oversight?
My community contributions - Get my campaigns from here.

I already announced my retirement twice, yet here I am. If I bring up that topic again, don't believe a word.

 

Offline Sushi

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  • 211
Re: Balance(Bugs) Vanilla vs SCP (Philosophy?)
So basically all these balance issues are because of a simple oversight?

Possibly, but it's still unclear what the oversight was/is...

For the record, I'm taking great pains to make sure my AI changes don't mess with retail behavior. I hope they succeed. :)

 

Offline Goober5000

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Re: Balance(Bugs) Vanilla vs SCP (Philosophy?)
So basically all these balance issues are because of a simple oversight?
It's neither simple nor should it have been an oversight.  It's a preventable problem caused by not adhering to proper procedure.  Two major things are wrong with that massive commit: first, several features were committed all at once, instead of one at a time.  Second, the features were not tested sufficiently before being added to source; it was as if the coder took everything on top of his desk and dumped it on someone else's desk.

I bear some of the blame for this because I haven't been consistent in enforcing the coding and source control standards.  Those omnibus (which I called blunderbuss because they're at high risk for blunders) feature commits are just the sort of thing we should NOT be doing.  They hide bugs at the time because the sheer amount of code makes it hard to tell what changed; and they hide bugs later on because you can't go back and make one incremental build per incremental feature.  In fact, just a week ago when I tracked down the Sync bug, it took me six hours to create a differential build because I had to disentangle one feature from all its dependencies.  There was a stretch of 30-odd commits which ALL had severe compile errors.

WMC and Bobboau were the worst offenders, but every coder is susceptible to this if he doesn't take precautions.  Things should be done one-at-a-time, and carefully.  I got nervous when I saw that giant Antipodes merge the other day; I really hope that those features were tested individually before they were merged into trunk...

 
Re: Balance(Bugs) Vanilla vs SCP (Philosophy?)
I got nervous when I saw that giant Antipodes merge the other day; I really hope that those features were tested individually before they were merged into trunk...

Me too - I took a long time checking that one out before committing it.
It's been tested by at least 4 people (probably more than most features :P ), however the feedback on the Antipodes post wasn't as comprehensive as I was expecting (the four testers provided a lot of feedback through IRC).
STRONGTEA. Why can't the x86 be sane?

 
Re: Balance(Bugs) Vanilla vs SCP (Philosophy?)
Quote
AI; Now bombs like a player (well, an ok one), leading to fleets of incoming bombs from wings of bombers (they fire -> change bank, -> fire, etc)

Most of the other behaviour problems aren't very easy to convey (*without using fraps, which, well you'll see my FPS on this screenie..), but this one, I have a pretty pretty screenie for it xP




Couple people been complaining this one has been breaking missions with bombers in it.
I'm exceptionally good at shooting down bombs (that cruiser, what you don't see, is there are also a wing of nahema on the OTHER side of it/the bomb explosions in the second shot, coming in with 16 bombs as well, the ship still lasted another 60 seconds), and there are still missions I find _very_ difficult because of this one ;P

'tis the next one to track down I imagine, after we get together and nail down the "never gonna give you up" one.
"Neutrality means that you don't really care, cuz the struggle goes on even when you're not there: Blind and unaware."

"We still believe in all the things that we stood by before,
and after everything we've seen here maybe even more.
I know we're not the only ones, and we were not the first,
and unapologetically we'll stand behind each word."

 

Offline chief1983

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Re: Balance(Bugs) Vanilla vs SCP (Philosophy?)
This affects SP too?  I always felt like bomber interception has been stupidly hard.
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Re: Balance(Bugs) Vanilla vs SCP (Philosophy?)
Bomber interception is made harder by several currently compounded bugs.

A) Bombs are virtually (*I'm not sure I've ever managed it?) impossible to shoot down from directly behind, and the closer you are to 'directly behind' in angle, the harder the bombs are to shoot down, in the past bombs just blew up if you shot 'near' them (they still do if you shoot them from the side to a degree), but now you can actually put primaries right through the bombs and it not hit.

B) Bombers are being augmented, more than any other ships by the 'improved shields' AI, this is ridiculously noticeable on FSPort missions where you have to use an avenger vs a target, because they adjust their shields into the quadrants you're shooting at like a player would (well, better than most players TBH :P).

C) Bombers are using the oft-used player trick of swapping secondary banks to fire more bombs, more rapidly, now - this is further abused by the fact that AI doesn't have a 'missile lock' their aspect seekers are locked the moment you're on screen or in range (earlier, even in some rare cases).

This means that they can literally turn into a ship and dump off 3-6 Helios level bombs at almost pointblank range in a matter of a second or two (not sure I've seen 3 (or 6) bombs in 2 sec before though).
At the moment I'm mostly countering this by letting anyone around me (AI/Players) shoot the bombers, whilst I exclusively shoot bombs, because if you try to do both you'll run out of weapon energy. :p

I've seen it in every single mod I've played, on vanilla, and with mvps.

Most of these behavioural changes do carry over between all the mods.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2009, 05:44:08 pm by QuantumDelta »
"Neutrality means that you don't really care, cuz the struggle goes on even when you're not there: Blind and unaware."

"We still believe in all the things that we stood by before,
and after everything we've seen here maybe even more.
I know we're not the only ones, and we were not the first,
and unapologetically we'll stand behind each word."

 

Offline Tomo

  • 28
Re: Balance(Bugs) Vanilla vs SCP (Philosophy?)
This Bomber-fires-many-bombs bug is indeed very evident in single-player as well.

You can particularly see it in the Warzone (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=65293.0), mission "Northwest Passage"

In that mission, there is a stage where several Seraphim jump in and almost instantly fire multiple warheads each at near-point-blank at one of your convoy.
It's currently impossible to pass that mission, because even if you're sat ready at aimed at their arrival point you can only destroy one of the pair before the other has fired six warheads, which is more than enough to destroy any of your convoy ships.

The bombers in this mission (Nahema and Seraphim) definitely fire off six warheads each in almost every playthrough, so it's probably a good mission for testing.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2009, 03:36:37 am by Tomo »

 

Offline FUBAR-BDHR

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Re: Balance(Bugs) Vanilla vs SCP (Philosophy?)
I believe there is a flag to allow that behavior but it definitely should be off in retail and the MediaVPs.  The commit of that flag and what it controls might be a good place to start the search for the change in behavior though. 
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Offline TopAce

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Re: Balance(Bugs) Vanilla vs SCP (Philosophy?)
...A) Bombs are virtually (*I'm not sure I've ever managed it?) impossible to shoot down from directly behind, and the closer you are to 'directly behind' in angle, the harder the bombs are to shoot down, in the past bombs just blew up if you shot 'near' them (they still do if you shoot them from the side to a degree), but now you can actually put primaries right through the bombs and it not hit...

I thought I it had always been so.

[EDIT]Corrected a rather funny typo.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2009, 09:34:55 am by TopAce »
My community contributions - Get my campaigns from here.

I already announced my retirement twice, yet here I am. If I bring up that topic again, don't believe a word.

 

Offline Rodo

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Re: Balance(Bugs) Vanilla vs SCP (Philosophy?)
...A) Bombs are virtually (*I'm not sure I've ever managed it?) impossible to shoot down from directly behind, and the closer you are to 'directly behind' in angle, the harder the bombs are to shoot down, in the past bombs just blew up if you shot 'near' them (they still do if you shoot them from the side to a degree), but now you can actually put primaries right through the bombs and it not hit...

I don't remember the bombs being any different than now, they still explode when you shoot "next" to them, it doesn't matter from where are you shooting. You might want to check this also: if you try to shoot down a bomb that's too close to the target you won't be able to do so, only the target itself seems to be capable of destroying those bombs, might be a code/table thing.
el hombre vicio...

 
Re: Balance(Bugs) Vanilla vs SCP (Philosophy?)
If you're too close to bombs and your weapons aren't exactly in the centre of your ship you need to adjust slightly :P

In regards to shooting them down, they haven't changed that much besides a reduction in functional rear and front hitbox size, you can assume you wont shoot a bomb from behind, whereas if you're to the side of the bomb you can shoot 'around' it and 'miss' but still cause the bomb damage (in most cases destroying it), this doesn't happen much/at all from behind.

On multi this problem is extreme, since bombs don't seem to track properly to clients (read; they can't shoot them from the side, and moving in behind them means hitbox problems :P).
Trust me, there's a difference ;\
Go back and play some fs2 retail if you don't believe me :<
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: Balance(Bugs) Vanilla vs SCP (Philosophy?)
I concur that bomb hitboxes seem to have changed.

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: Balance(Bugs) Vanilla vs SCP (Philosophy?)
Do you get this problem in 3.6.10 as well? Or is it only 3.6.11 builds that suffer from this?
Karajorma's Freespace FAQ. It's almost like asking me yourself.

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Offline Sushi

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Re: Balance(Bugs) Vanilla vs SCP (Philosophy?)
I believe there is a flag to allow that behavior but it definitely should be off in retail and the MediaVPs.  The commit of that flag and what it controls might be a good place to start the search for the change in behavior though. 

There is? If so, it's not in ai profiles... at least not on the wiki...