Author Topic: Death Rays now a reality 2  (Read 30307 times)

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Offline Thaeris

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Re: Death Rays now a reality 2
Hate to say it, that sounds rather inplausible. Logistics and risks just would make such operations a bad idea. Modern aircraft do it (uber-long range flights... the '36 did this too, but...), sure, but the safety margins on a modern aircraft are far higher than any WWII aircraft. Manufacturing nukes also takes a good deal of time. even in two years, I'd find it hard to believe you'd have enough weapons to go "day tripping" with them.

German designs were shifted to defensive work for the most of the latter stages of the war. Bomber projects became a concern again with hopes of using "wonder weapons," but the production capacity to produce any would have been minimal at least without some sort of miraculous turn of events for the Germans. Thus, any aviation designs in primary development would have been (and were) focused on fighter-bombers and interceptors as well as air defense technologies. Other projects were most definately there (check out http://www.luft46.com), but would never have recieved the magnitude of attention as fighters and air defense. Even in the often nonsensical last days of the Third Reich, I believe they exuded enough common sense as to pursue the neccessary agendas.

Because a WWII fighter-bomber is often very limited in range when carrying a ground attack payload, V-1s were often intercepted and had marginal-at-best (if any) accuracy against precision targets... ad V-2s were also quite inaccurate... it makes no sense to base strategic bombers "across the pond." If you base them out of England, you can carry less fuel and thus carry more ordnance. You also have a much shorter turn-around time. THE ONLY exception I can think of for launching a '36... or something like a YB-49 strike out of the US... would be sending a small, highly classified mission to nuke a target. If the flight is small, it might be considered a ferry flight if the enemy's intel is even good enough to know it launched. A mass nuking mission in "extended WWII" is the least likely worse-case scenario I can think of.

-Thaeris
"trolls are clearly social rejects and therefore should be isolated from society, or perhaps impaled."

-Nuke



"Look on the bright side, how many release dates have been given for Doomsday, and it still isn't out yet.

It's the Duke Nukem Forever of prophecies..."


"Jesus saves.

Everyone else takes normal damage.
"

-Flipside

"pirating software is a lesser evil than stealing but its still evil. but since i pride myself for being evil, almost anything is fair game."


"i never understood why women get the creeps so ****ing easily. i mean most serial killers act perfectly normal, until they kill you."


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Offline General Battuta

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Re: Death Rays now a reality 2
*headdesk*

So, you do realize that in this scenario Germany took Britain, correct?

 

Offline Thaeris

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Re: Death Rays now a reality 2
Oh...

Perhaps I shall read the link next time...

-Thaeris
"trolls are clearly social rejects and therefore should be isolated from society, or perhaps impaled."

-Nuke



"Look on the bright side, how many release dates have been given for Doomsday, and it still isn't out yet.

It's the Duke Nukem Forever of prophecies..."


"Jesus saves.

Everyone else takes normal damage.
"

-Flipside

"pirating software is a lesser evil than stealing but its still evil. but since i pride myself for being evil, almost anything is fair game."


"i never understood why women get the creeps so ****ing easily. i mean most serial killers act perfectly normal, until they kill you."


-Nuke

 

Offline Kosh

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Re: Death Rays now a reality 2
Quote
The problem with that scenario is that, had it happened, the Glouster Meteor and P-80 would have been rushed through the final stages of development, be ready by late 1944, and both were better aircraft with safer, more powerful engines.


Not that I'm an expert or anything but I was under the impression the Meteor was in many ways inferior to the 262. Wasn't Heinkel's jet prototype better than the 262?


In reality if Germany's leaders were smart they wouldn't have declared war on the US, at least not before knocking out the Russians.


"The reason for this is that the original Fortran got so convoluted and extensive (10's of millions of lines of code) that no-one can actually figure out how it works, there's a massive project going on to decode the original Fortran and write a more modern system, but until then, the UK communication network is actually relying heavily on 35 year old Fortran that nobody understands." - Flipside

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Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Death Rays now a reality 2
Not that I'm an expert or anything but I was under the impression the Meteor was in many ways inferior to the 262. Wasn't Heinkel's jet prototype better than the 262?

The Meteor was slightly slower, and less well-armed (German fighter armament shaded into massive overkill because they were going up against extremely robust US heavy bombers; if the bomber threat they were used to had not materalized, the 262 would never have flown in the first place as they would have been building Arados), but it was a difference definitely not insurmountable. It also had vastly more reliable and safer engines and was an easier aircraft to fly. The 262 had bad tendancies about flameout at high speed, engine fires on startup and takeoff, and maintance issues.

In reality if Germany's leaders were smart they wouldn't have declared war on the US, at least not before knocking out the Russians.

Which is, of course, another impossiblity, on a similar scale. German could not win the war with the US; on the technical front the vast US university system ensured that they would lose the technology race, they would lose the manpower one as well, they had nothing remotely like the industrial capacity. The Germans had a better technical base then Russia (somewhat nullified by the fact that the Russians invested their technical resources very wisely prewar), but a similar problem of industry and a much worse manpower one.
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Offline Thaeris

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Re: Death Rays now a reality 2
Is it just me... or did a few posts disappear from the other day? I recall adding some info about the '262's engines. In other threads, the responses to some commentary I and others made just... it's gone.
"trolls are clearly social rejects and therefore should be isolated from society, or perhaps impaled."

-Nuke



"Look on the bright side, how many release dates have been given for Doomsday, and it still isn't out yet.

It's the Duke Nukem Forever of prophecies..."


"Jesus saves.

Everyone else takes normal damage.
"

-Flipside

"pirating software is a lesser evil than stealing but its still evil. but since i pride myself for being evil, almost anything is fair game."


"i never understood why women get the creeps so ****ing easily. i mean most serial killers act perfectly normal, until they kill you."


-Nuke

 

Offline terran_emperor

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Re: Death Rays now a reality 2
Yeah. They had a server error. The result of which, means that the servers had to be reset to the last saved version backup. As a result, posts made since that save were lost because thay hadn't been backed up...
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Offline Black Wolf

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Re: Death Rays now a reality 2
Read the announcements :p
TWISTED INFINITIES · SECTORGAME· FRONTLINES
Rarely Updated P3D.
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Offline Thaeris

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Re: Death Rays now a reality 2
I didn't see that before...  :nervous:

Well, on the current topic which is a tangent of the real topic...

Someone was asking about German WWII jet engines. The Me-262 used the Junkers Jumo 004b turbojet for most of its service life. If I recall properly, other engine types were tested but not widely employed. NTGM-1R is right in saying they were not as good as the Allied engines of the period - but just going off of what he said I feel is a bit misleading.

The German engine was in many ways superior to the British design. All actual jets the Germans used or designed to my knowledge were powered by such engines. Most engines you see today are what we call axial-flow. Thus, the actual concept of their engines were more advanced than the British design as evidenced by current technological trends. The British engine was a centrifugal-flow type engine. It's a portly, squat design, but it works. Elements of both engines are visible in modern jets, but the commanding design feature visible is the axial-flow design. Centifugal-flow engines are not a good choice for a fighter as they're very broad, meaning you'll eventually have some problems if you want a design to go really fast. Slim is better...

Allied engines were better because they were often in an environment where they could be extensively tested and refined... and then be built out of good materials. The greatest flaw of the German jets were their inferior materials. Thus, engines might last as little as ten flight hours before they were in need of a major overhaul. Fuel leaks... though I've not heard of that problem to date... would explain the flame-outs. As far as overcomplexity goes... that's inherently German.  :D German engines were interesting for a particular feature: they used a small two-stroke Wankel engine to spool up the turbine. APU for the win... I also mention this due to the fact that the starter was not always reliable if my memory serves me well. On the other side, allied engines were using a cartridge start for how long?

So no, the germans did not design bad engines, but they didn't have the manufacturing environment to produce truly reliable ones, either. I'm in no way dissatisfied with that, either.
"trolls are clearly social rejects and therefore should be isolated from society, or perhaps impaled."

-Nuke



"Look on the bright side, how many release dates have been given for Doomsday, and it still isn't out yet.

It's the Duke Nukem Forever of prophecies..."


"Jesus saves.

Everyone else takes normal damage.
"

-Flipside

"pirating software is a lesser evil than stealing but its still evil. but since i pride myself for being evil, almost anything is fair game."


"i never understood why women get the creeps so ****ing easily. i mean most serial killers act perfectly normal, until they kill you."


-Nuke

 

Offline Kosh

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Re: Death Rays now a reality 2
Quote
The Meteor was slightly slower, and less well-armed (German fighter armament shaded into massive overkill because they were going up against extremely robust US heavy bombers; if the bomber threat they were used to had not materalized, the 262 would never have flown in the first place as they would have been building Arados), but it was a difference definitely not insurmountable. It also had vastly more reliable and safer engines and was an easier aircraft to fly. The 262 had bad tendancies about flameout at high speed, engine fires on startup and takeoff, and maintance issues.

I was asking for a comparison between the Heinkel and the Messerschmidt jet designs (Heinkel's competitor to the ME262), not with the Meteor. I was wondering this because I wasn't sure if the ME-262 being chosen was because it was technically superior or just because of political favoritism.

About the answer that seemed to disappear about Germany's investments in advanced weaponry: If they did invest at an equal rate then how come their designs stagnated for so long? The Panther and Tiger didn't even start being designed until after encoutering the T-34, they still depended on aging designs such as the BF109, He111, and the type 7 uboats all the way until the end.
 

"The reason for this is that the original Fortran got so convoluted and extensive (10's of millions of lines of code) that no-one can actually figure out how it works, there's a massive project going on to decode the original Fortran and write a more modern system, but until then, the UK communication network is actually relying heavily on 35 year old Fortran that nobody understands." - Flipside

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Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Death Rays now a reality 2
The Heinkel jet was supposedly an underperformer from what I've read, lacking the speed and climb of the 262, but I've never seen the statistics quantified the same way twice so I'm somewhat suspicious.

They reached too far ahead in some ways. Stuff like the "Dicker Max" panzerjager (vastly overdesigned for its time), early widespread employment of rockets, the other wunderwaffen like the V-1 and V-2, were all in development early. The Bf109, like the Spitfire, underwent a lot of evolution as the war progressed. It's hardly fair to call it aging when it made such progress. The Type VII U-boat was, in a lot of ways, far better than any Allied submarine design. It could dive deeper and faster, withstand closer depth-charging. There was nothing wrong with the weapon, everything wrong with the subsystems that weren't very good or just not there. That's what I was getting at. Most Allied technical development was not based around building entirely new weapons as much as it was improving existing ones. Germany, as far as I am aware, never even touched the whole concept of operational research during the war. The British invented it, the Americans copied and refined it.

The T-34 issue, on the other hand, was a result of a moumental failure of basic intelligence. That failure was in turn one of many made prior to and during Operation Barbarossa.
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Offline Kosh

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Re: Death Rays now a reality 2
Quote
The Type VII U-boat was, in a lot of ways, far better than any Allied submarine design. It could dive deeper and faster, withstand closer depth-charging.

No doubt it was, but they had something even better in the type 21, so why not go with it? It was exactly what they needed in '42, '43, it could stay underwater many times longer, go much faster underwater, had the snorkel, that thing could have done some serious damage to a convoy. Speaking of the snorkel, why wasn't it put to widespread use much earlier?

Quote
everything wrong with the subsystems that weren't very good or just not there. That's what I was getting at.

Good point. So who is to blame for that?

Quote
The Bf109, like the Spitfire, underwent a lot of evolution as the war progressed. It's hardly fair to call it aging when it made such progress.

From what I read by 1944 it was getting somewhat outclassed, also based on what I read the FW-190 was a much better design. Of course feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on any of this. The point is if they had something that was clearly better, why not build more of it?

Quote
early widespread employment of rockets, the other wunderwaffen like the V-1 and V-2, were all in development early.

From what I understand, they also had working prototypes of guided AAMs and SAMs, but they didn't start looking into those until '42 and '41. What if they started researching them earlier (and actually adopting them before it was too late)? Personally I think that a massive V-2 barrage (instead of launching 10 per day, launching 1000 all at once) could devastate a large part of London, is that possible? Instead of having the Battle of Britain, just these a bunch of these and smash them with a "rain of steel"?

Quote
Stuff like the "Dicker Max" panzerjager (vastly overdesigned for its time),

Never heard of that one.

Quote
The T-34 issue, on the other hand, was a result of a moumental failure of basic intelligence.

True, but even discounting that letting your tank designs stagnate when you have such a dangerous potential enemy with huge numbers and a large industrial capacity sitting on your doorstep strikes me as rather........stupid.

Quote
That failure was in turn one of many made prior to and during Operation Barbarossa.

What else did they frak up?

EDIT:After reading this about the Henschel butterfly SAM it really makes you wonder wtf these guys were thinking:

Quote
n 1941, Professor Herbert A. Wagner (who was previously responsible for the Henschel Hs 293 anti-ship missile) invented the Schmetterling missile and submitted it to the Reich Air Ministry (RLM), who rejected the design because there was no need for more anti-aircraft weaponry.

Given the appearent two year development time, this could have ripped through allied bomber squadrons by '43. Just reading things like this sometimes makes me wonder how they managed to conquer as much as they did.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2009, 07:36:00 am by Kosh »
"The reason for this is that the original Fortran got so convoluted and extensive (10's of millions of lines of code) that no-one can actually figure out how it works, there's a massive project going on to decode the original Fortran and write a more modern system, but until then, the UK communication network is actually relying heavily on 35 year old Fortran that nobody understands." - Flipside

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Offline Scotty

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Re: Death Rays now a reality 2
Quote
Given the appearent two year development time, this could have ripped through allied bomber squadrons by '43. Just reading things like this sometimes makes me wonder how they managed to conquer as much as they did.

Blitzkrieg.  France/Britain were not prepared to fight a fast paced war.

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Death Rays now a reality 2
No doubt it was, but they had something even better in the type 21, so why not go with it? It was exactly what they needed in '42, '43, it could stay underwater many times longer, go much faster underwater, had the snorkel, that thing could have done some serious damage to a convoy. Speaking of the snorkel, why wasn't it put to widespread use much earlier?

The U-Boat war wasn't definitively lost until May of '43 (and they'd actually done extremely well two months before). Black May was the result of many cumulative processes taking hold at once, not really predictable. The Type XXI and XXVI electro-boote were both in active development by '42, well before then mind you, but they used so many new technologies at one time that systems integration and the like delayed their introduction to 1945. The Allied incremental improvement process, adding one new system at a time, was ultimately a better model for this reason.

Good point. So who is to blame for that?

Some of it must fall on Donitz, and his BdU, for not pushing the technical establishment harder and for remaining oburate on certain points expressed in patrol reports, like shipboard HFDF. Some of it must fall on the technical establishment, for lacking the imagination to design things like submarine-based radar or failing to realize HFDF installations could be shrunk down small enough to fit on an escort vessel, for lacking the urgency to inform the interested parties rapidly of their discoveries about Allied gear or realize its implications and the need for rapid counters themselves. They managed some great successes, like the rapid development and deployment of the metric-radar search reciever, on their own.

From what I read by 1944 it was getting somewhat outclassed, also based on what I read the FW-190 was a much better design. Of course feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on any of this. The point is if they had something that was clearly better, why not build more of it?

There is truth to this, in that by 1944 the 109's airframe was pretty close to played out. The G-6 and G-10 were not bad aircraft, however. They could carry their own weight. That simply wasn't good enough by then, they needed a truly exceptional aircraft, but that's the way it breaks down. The -190 was a superior aircraft in many, many ways, but actually this is all somewhat deceptive since by the time the difference became an issue, the battle was lost.

Over gasoline. German avgas had a low octane (about 50) rating and didn't burn well at high altitudes, costing engine power. Allied gasoline had about a 150 rating and so burned three times as well at altitude.

From what I understand, they also had working prototypes of guided AAMs and SAMs, but they didn't start looking into those until '42 and '41. What if they started researching them earlier (and actually adopting them before it was too late)? Personally I think that a massive V-2 barrage (instead of launching 10 per day, launching 1000 all at once) could devastate a large part of London, is that possible? Instead of having the Battle of Britain, just these a bunch of these and smash them with a "rain of steel"?

A V2 launch site was actually a fairly involved thing. Part of the reason for the slow launch rate is a slow production rate. They never had very many V-2s at one time. It wouldn't have been practical to assemble a large number and launch them all at once, lack of launch sites and the delays in doing so.

As for the guided weapons, there's an issue with them. They were guided yes, beam-riders, and so easily spoofed even with WW2 technology. Electronic warfare was a doorway German never opened, but the Allies commited to heavily, so in practice it wouldn't have ended well.

Never heard of that one.

Few people do. You have to be a real fanatic, or own a copy of Steel Panthers: World At War. They only built two of them. One was destroyed in combat, the other retired from service in mid-1943.

What else did they frak up?

Basic intelligence on just about every level. Their assumed order of battle for the Red Army was a joke. The chief of the general staff commented on it on the 47th day of the campaign. "When we invaded Russian we counted on an enemy force of only 150 large formations. To date, we have engaged 247." Their assumptions about the Russian officer corps were nonsense. They had no real conception of what it would take to cripple Russian industry. Basically just about every intelligence failure you could have, they had.
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Offline Thaeris

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Re: Death Rays now a reality 2
Perhaps the surface-to-air missiles they were developing were beam-riders, but all other (air-launched) systems I'm aware of relied on an operator actively guiding the weapon system. The X-4 AAM was basically an air-to-air TOW missile without a TV camera. The missile used a phosphorus trail to enable the pilot to see its progress and steer it to the target. Control was afforded via a small joystick.

Read more on it here: http://www.luft46.com/missile/x-4.html

Amusing end to the missile's limited history: a large quantity of devices are produced but the propulsion systems are destroyed in a bombing run... the exact thing the weapon system was designed to counter...  :lol:

There was a simpler weapon before it... it was comparable in appearance to the Henschel anti-shipping missile, but smaller. It actually might have seen limited combat deployment.
"trolls are clearly social rejects and therefore should be isolated from society, or perhaps impaled."

-Nuke



"Look on the bright side, how many release dates have been given for Doomsday, and it still isn't out yet.

It's the Duke Nukem Forever of prophecies..."


"Jesus saves.

Everyone else takes normal damage.
"

-Flipside

"pirating software is a lesser evil than stealing but its still evil. but since i pride myself for being evil, almost anything is fair game."


"i never understood why women get the creeps so ****ing easily. i mean most serial killers act perfectly normal, until they kill you."


-Nuke

  

Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Death Rays now a reality 2
Perhaps the surface-to-air missiles they were developing were beam-riders, but all other (air-launched) systems I'm aware of relied on an operator actively guiding the weapon system. The X-4 AAM was basically an air-to-air TOW missile without a TV camera. The missile used a phosphorus trail to enable the pilot to see its progress and steer it to the target. Control was afforded via a small joystick.

That's not even worth spoofing (and also not at all comparable to the TOW, which is an image-recognition sort of weapon). The Russians developed a few ATGMs like that but the technology was just so useless that they were never considered a serious threat to a tank. Much less an aircraft. Much less a high-flying aircraft you can't actually see that well. Hell, that's just not worth it against heavy bombers at all.
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Offline Thaeris

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Re: Death Rays now a reality 2
<Thaeris would like to point out that due to a complete lack of historical operational history, your statements are unjustified>

Against a maneuvering target, no. If you know the weapons rate of acceleration, approximate effective range, etc., it's not bad. Because it relies on an acoustic fuse (which I assume would have a delay after launch for obvious reasons), the weapon only needs to get close to the target to do damage. AND, if you did get a direct hit, A FREAKIN' 44 POUND WARHEAD would eviscerate anything it hit. If nothing else, it would be worse than a flak round if a direct hit was not achieved. Essentially, the pilot would use the stick for minor corrections in the flightpath. An attack would ideally take place above the formation's altitude, with the attacking fighter flying a relatively straight approach.
"trolls are clearly social rejects and therefore should be isolated from society, or perhaps impaled."

-Nuke



"Look on the bright side, how many release dates have been given for Doomsday, and it still isn't out yet.

It's the Duke Nukem Forever of prophecies..."


"Jesus saves.

Everyone else takes normal damage.
"

-Flipside

"pirating software is a lesser evil than stealing but its still evil. but since i pride myself for being evil, almost anything is fair game."


"i never understood why women get the creeps so ****ing easily. i mean most serial killers act perfectly normal, until they kill you."


-Nuke

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Death Rays now a reality 2
See, all of this is pointless, because it's got this human operator trying to aim it by remote control in an extremely counterintuitive fashion, from a range of at least 2000 feet (otherwise the bombers could theoritically return fire) which is about double the recommended range at which this sort of thing is even remotely accurate using the considerably more advanced setup of the Sagger, the bombers will manuver unless they're on their bombing run (in which case you have to fly through flak to launch). By the time it entered service anyways there would have been escort fighters, further decreasing accuracy because they'll come after you and you have to manuver, unless they shoot you down, in which case it's all totally moot.

And we aren't talking about modern aircraft that rip themselves apart when something blows up nearby. This is a fraking B-17. It hits a telephone pole on takeoff and flies the mission anyways because nobody noticed. It survives being mid-aired by enemy fighters. Sure, a direct hit will be lethal, but there are much simpler and more effective methods delievering direct hits from lesser weapons that will be equally lethal.

It's totally worthless.
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Offline Thaeris

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Re: Death Rays now a reality 2
Modern aircraft aren't that frail. That would be stupid. Modern weapons are, rather, far more lethal.

A .50cal Browning can definately shoot farther than 2000ft. A mile would be easy. Hitting something at that range is questionable.

Tell me, HOW THE HELL did they ever manage to hit a target with those rediculous 21cm rocket mortars? They weren't always effective, but they certainly did work. Otherwise they would have been removed from service. I can think of several German rockets that were removed from AA work because they were ineffective. The 21cm rocket was a stand-off weapon lobbed at a formation beyond the formation's effective return-fire range. There's no way to tell me a spin-stabalized rocket would be worse than one of those things.
"trolls are clearly social rejects and therefore should be isolated from society, or perhaps impaled."

-Nuke



"Look on the bright side, how many release dates have been given for Doomsday, and it still isn't out yet.

It's the Duke Nukem Forever of prophecies..."


"Jesus saves.

Everyone else takes normal damage.
"

-Flipside

"pirating software is a lesser evil than stealing but its still evil. but since i pride myself for being evil, almost anything is fair game."


"i never understood why women get the creeps so ****ing easily. i mean most serial killers act perfectly normal, until they kill you."


-Nuke

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Death Rays now a reality 2
Modern aircraft aren't that frail. That would be stupid. Modern weapons are, rather, far more lethal.

On the contrary, they are. An AMRAAM has a warhead less than the weapon you're talking about. (30 pounds? Maybe even under 25, or that's the Sidewinder...) It takes very little to destroy modern aircraft because they're not designed for structural strength or armored, and their high speed means that small damage to the airframe results in vastly increased stress on it. Two or three small holes in an aircraft moving at Mach 1 will result in it tearing apart.

Tell me, HOW THE HELL did they ever manage to hit a target with those rediculous 21cm rocket mortars? They weren't always effective, but they certainly did work. Otherwise they would have been removed from service. I can think of several German rockets that were removed from AA work because they were ineffective. The 21cm rocket was a stand-off weapon lobbed at a formation beyond the formation's effective return-fire range. There's no way to tell me a spin-stabalized rocket would be worse than one of those things.

Getting in reasonably close, 1500 feet or so, and firing an awful lot of them. That's theoritically in range of return fire but a fighter's too small a target. The problem isn't your spin-stablized rocket (although then, perhaps it is; this is relatviely new technology and you can always screw up the spin), but the operator, who thinks he's missing all the time because he usually is, but even when he's not...
"Load sabot. Target Zaku, direct front!"

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