Author Topic: Death Rays now a reality 2  (Read 30237 times)

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Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Death Rays now a reality 2
IMHO, 1 LY is the utter maximum possible engagment range in a future space battle.

Try a couple orders of magnitude smaller. At least.
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Offline headdie

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Re: Death Rays now a reality 2
i believe energy in the EM scale takes around 8 mins to reach earth from the sun so until the advent of faster than light signaling anything over 1/8 of an AU is unfeasible and even then battle would be more miss than hit
« Last Edit: September 23, 2009, 06:56:11 pm by headdie »
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Offline Mongoose

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Re: Death Rays now a reality 2
how could you possibly aim to shoot someone and hit them a year later?
Hope that they drift in a perfectly straight line for the next year and lead accordingly? :p

 

Offline Thaeris

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Re: Death Rays now a reality 2
Redirect a giant mass of space rocks and send it towards their planet?
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Offline Ghostavo

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Re: Death Rays now a reality 2
Planet to planet artillary comes to mind.
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Offline Scotty

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Re: Death Rays now a reality 2
I would put the ABSOLUTE MAXIMUM engagement range, for a very, VERY long time, at about 1 LH.  Still going to take a bit, but I think missiles will be able to engage at that range.  Effectively, well, that is another matter, but still engage.

 

Offline Kosh

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Re: Death Rays now a reality 2
You can attack a planet that way since they travel in predictable patterns.
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: Death Rays now a reality 2
IMHO, 1 LY is the utter maximum possible engagment range in a future space battle.

Frankly, I expect the optimal battle range to be a LOT smaller. accuracy, lag and focusing will all present a problem at longer ranges.


Hahaha, nowhere near that with ships.

With planets the maximum engagement range is just about infinite, though.

 

Offline TrashMan

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Re: Death Rays now a reality 2
Quote
IMHO, 1 LY is the utter maximum possible engagment range in a future space battle.

Frankly, I expect the optimal battle range to be a LOT smaller. accuracy, lag and focusing will all present a problem at longer ranges.

 :lol:

Sorry Trashman, but you just made my day. This has to be the best understatement of the year up so far, given the context and all.

I'm barely able to resist the temptation of calculating the corresponding F-number and Airy radius of that kind of system.


Ups..typo. It should have said 1 LS.

Anyways, methinks  it's far more realistic to expect enegement at 10.000 - 100.000 km ranges.
Keeping your weapons accurate and effective at long ranges will always present a big problem.
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Offline Liberator

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Re: Death Rays now a reality 2
Humans being humans, the space wars of the future will only be fought over distances where you press a button and watch your enemy in some kind of gamma lazer or fusion-pumped shrapnel bomb.
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Offline Flaser

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Re: Death Rays now a reality 2
I think actual engagements will be at Light-second fractions.

However battles will take place at a scale of light-minutes as long as inertia isn't dealt with. The reason is the human body's abyssal acceleration tolerance compared to machines. If you can make a nuclear-bomb-pumped laser-head missile that can accelerate at 100Gs, then the missiles and the fire-control tether drones will have a massive advantage over the ships. They'd be a lot harder to shoot down and not to mention cheaper as well.

For a while you could compensate with point-defense, but the laserhead will put an end to that. The moment it's in firing range it will detonate and fire lasers in your direction. Given the sophistry of the on-board AI it will do it with a considerable lightspeed lag between you. The laserheads will have numbers and multiple spread-out laser beams on their end to push the equation to their end.

The ship will have better tracking and processing power. However the ship will also have to deal with heat. The laserhead doesn't as he's a one-shot weapon that annihilates itself when firing.

It begs the question whether you'd even need a human manned spaceship...
...and the answer is probably, but only to analyze the tactics and strategy of the other side's drones.

The only role of the manned ship will be to update the fire-plan of the drones and look for a loophole in the enemy's setup. Since machines aren't good enough at creativity (yet! with AI humans will be absolutely redundant).
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Offline TrashMan

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Re: Death Rays now a reality 2
"If the enemy is in range, so are you"

The second the bomb-pumped laser is in range, so is inside the ships laser defense range.

It also raises the question of how effective a weapon the lasers are. Can it really top mass driver, particle accelerators and the like in raw damage? I doubt it.
then there's also the matter of cost.
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: Death Rays now a reality 2
Particle accelerators are pretty dubious at the moment. Rather than cutting/blasting, they'd probably work by irradiating crew. So no, they wouldn't do much 'raw damage'.

Each weapons system may have its place. Lasers would probably be a primary one.

 

Offline headdie

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Re: Death Rays now a reality 2
personally i think lasers would be implausible unless massive outputs could be achieved as ship hulls would have to be shielded against high energy exposure to survive long term beyond the earths shielding effects e.g. particle storms and solar flares emitted from the sun as well as planetary reentry on top of that when we go inter stellar there will be other high energy phenomenons
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Offline Ghostavo

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Re: Death Rays now a reality 2
I'd wager when we have spaceships capable of combat, laser technology will have advanced considerably.

And hey, if we already have lasers capable of being used in a real-life combat situation, it is safe to say laser will be the primary choice for a weapon, unless something better comes. Speed of light "amunition" and whatnot.
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Offline Woolie Wool

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Re: Death Rays now a reality 2
I have no doubt it's coming.  Though I doubt it would even replace the 50 cal cannon.

F-22s use 20mm rotary cannons that make .50-caliber machine guns look like pop guns by comparison. An F-22 can empty its entire 480-round magazine in four and a half seconds (doing this all at once probably would be rather hard on the gun though).

You don't shoot down bombs, not even today, and we've got ENORMOUSLY better equipment nowadays.

Sure, a couple bombers maybe, but we had three.  One of them would have gotten it, surely :P.

Also, wouldn't be Berlin.  We didn't A-bomb Tokyo.

There would have been no point in A-bombing Tokyo. The entire city was razed to the ground by firebombs. Firebombs actually killed far more people than A-bombs, because we dropped thousands upon thousands on Japan's cities until every standing building burnt to the ground.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2009, 06:52:24 pm by Woolie Wool »
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Offline Flaser

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Re: Death Rays now a reality 2
"If the enemy is in range, so are you"

The second the bomb-pumped laser is in range, so is inside the ships laser defense range.

It also raises the question of how effective a weapon the lasers are. Can it really top mass driver, particle accelerators and the like in raw damage? I doubt it.
then there's also the matter of cost.


Particle accelerators are c-fractional weapons. Mass drivers are even more feeble.
Lasers just by hitting at light-speed have an immense advantage in range as light-speed lag affects them less.

You're still right though: when the missile's in range to strike the ship, so is the ship in range to strike the missile. This is why wrote about the heat management difference.

This is why the acceleration difference could mean the end of manned ships directly engaging each other. The missile will be able to do at least a 100G-s (our current defense missiles can do this) and it is reasonable to expect at least twice if not three times that acceleration in time. Unless you redesign the humans themselves they would be limited to woeful 10Gs and that's very-very optimistic.

With a considerable light-speed lag acceleration becomes a very important question as it determines how big a volume of space you could be in the moment the laser (or even slower particle) beam reaches you. Bigger acceleration --> bigger volume --> less chance of a hit.



However you're right: particle beams and kinetic weapons are a lot more destructive. They also have a lot smaller "range" as they are slower. To achieve a hit you'd need to be a lot closer...
...and the closer you get, the better chances the laser has to maul you.

Armor incidentally is useless, as even fractions of acceleration would protect you better. Still since ships are limited by the humans they'd likely still mount some as advanced fusion torch drive designs tend to give more power than what humans could withstand. So ships would still take more hits to kill than a missile.

Initially while point-defense could handle laserheads through sheer difference in computing power ships would have a laser primary armament. When the missiles get smart enough - and actual laserhead X-ray laser nuclear warheads are miniaturized enough - ships will have to shift to missile heavy armaments.

The reason why I'm so high up on the laserhead is that it deals with several issues rather elegantly:
-It can be deployed far away from your ship, so your weapons are no longer in a single basket. It also ensures that the ship itself along with its crew won't be damaged.
-Even while being a missile (...and therefore possesing "unlimited range" if you're willing to put ballistic parts into their trajectory) it still wield a lightspeed weapon and therefore will pose the same threat to the ship like a laser equipped ship would.
-Since it creates the laser through a nuclear explosion it doesn't have to deal withe insane heat buildup that all lasers suffer from. (Ships using normal lasers would have around 20% efficiency. So you need to deal with four times the heat of the same energy as what you pumped into the enemy).
« Last Edit: September 24, 2009, 08:11:50 pm by Flaser »
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Offline TrashMan

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Re: Death Rays now a reality 2
True, a railgun/coligun has a smaller effective range, but the power of a hit is terrifying.
Now immagine addinga smart round (has a few thrusters to adjsut it's vector a bit), and it's accuracy increases.

Lasers do have one weak point tough - to do real damage, they have to hit the same spot for a while. Keeping a laser on the same spot at the distances we're talking about, when both ships move at several G's? Far harder than just getting a sinlge hit.
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: Death Rays now a reality 2
It's a possibility. We don't really know how effective laser weapons will be. A pulsed laser weapon can saw through stuff pretty fast.

You've got some stuff backwards, though. Railgun/coilgun effective range is far longer than laser range. You can use your railgun/coilgun to fire shrapnel all over the target's vector.

Keeping a laser on a ship that's only moving at several Gs wouldn't be a tremendously difficult task.

 

Offline Woolie Wool

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Re: Death Rays now a reality 2
True, a railgun/coligun has a smaller effective range, but the power of a hit is terrifying.
Now immagine addinga smart round (has a few thrusters to adjsut it's vector a bit), and it's accuracy increases.

Lasers do have one weak point tough - to do real damage, they have to hit the same spot for a while. Keeping a laser on the same spot at the distances we're talking about, when both ships move at several G's? Far harder than just getting a sinlge hit.

They also obey the inverse square law--the farther away the target is, the less damage is done.

Interestingly enough, this same principle helps explain why SETI really hasn't found anything--radio signals from an alien civilization can only travel a few lightyears before degrading to the point where you can't distinguish them from cosmic background radiation.
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