Author Topic: Etheric Rudders and Stealth in Space  (Read 31666 times)

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Offline Kolgena

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Re: Etheric Rudders and Stealth in Space
Hmmm...

We could totally pull off a "realistic" space fight by hacking sentry guns to have thrust, then spam them en masse between two Colossi.

Also, EMP weapons would probably be used much more frequently and to greater effect against drones than against humans, so maybe that serves as a pseudoscience reason for why FS bothers to use manned fighters at all. Plus, if you broadcast a giant wall of EM noise, you'd cut off any communication between mothership operators and drones, unless they were using some sort of entanglement comms.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Etheric Rudders and Stealth in Space
Also, EMP weapons would probably be used much more frequently and to greater effect against drones than against humans, so maybe that serves as a pseudoscience reason for why FS bothers to use manned fighters at all. Plus, if you broadcast a giant wall of EM noise, you'd cut off any communication between mothership operators and drones, unless they were using some sort of entanglement comms.

This.

Makes.

No.

Sense.

How is an electronically controlled fighter without a human pilot any different from one with electronic controls and a human pilot?

Unless you're suggesting future spacecraft won't be entirely fly-by-wire.

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Etheric Rudders and Stealth in Space
EMP's not that effective anyways. We have the means now, today, to harden effectively against the EMP of a nuclear blast. We can do it against a direct strike from a bolt of lightning, too.
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Offline Flipside

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Re: Etheric Rudders and Stealth in Space
The only real advantage, stealthwise, of unmanned ships is the fact that you save on having to heat some kind of living area and having to supply breathing and other needs.

 

Offline Scotty

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Re: Etheric Rudders and Stealth in Space
One more strike against unmanned:  intuition.  Heuristics and gut feelings may not be a science, but they can make a difference.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Etheric Rudders and Stealth in Space
One more strike against unmanned:  intuition.  Heuristics and gut feelings may not be a science, but they can make a difference.

Yeah, but intuition is slow. Probably too slow.

Has a better place in overall command-and-control.

 

Offline Scotty

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Re: Etheric Rudders and Stealth in Space
Slow is better than non-existant.

 

Offline Ionizd

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Re: Etheric Rudders and Stealth in Space
The only real advantage, stealthwise, of unmanned ships is the fact that you save on having to heat some kind of living area and having to supply breathing and other needs.
 Smaller, faster and more maneuverable ships are harder to hit in a dogfight, where stealth isn't really a factor.  Human controlled drones with AI aided evasion and threat detection would present more of a challenge to computer controlled point defense.  Sensory interfaces could allow for extra sensors (including point defense targeting data and shipboard target identification systems) to be routed to the human pilots, thus giving them the equivalent of extra sensory perception, which would be far superior to an unquantifiable sense of "intuition"

  Also, EMP would present a host of problems for not only your ship-to-ship comms, but your enemies' as well.  Hardened onboard AI could keep the drones intact long enough for the pilot interfaces to be re-established.  The change in the flight characteristics may even confuse the enemy fighters, thus giving the tactical advantage back to our side.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2009, 08:39:22 pm by Ionizd »
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Offline Scotty

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Re: Etheric Rudders and Stealth in Space
You do realize that "more maneuverable" does not equate to pitch and yaw rate, correct?  In a [next best thing to] frictionless environment, maneuverability is limited to acceleration rates.  Granted, an unmanned craft could theoretically withstand higher G forces, things still tend to break.

 

Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: Etheric Rudders and Stealth in Space
You do realize that "more maneuverable" does not equate to pitch and yaw rate, correct?  In a [next best thing to] frictionless environment, maneuverability is limited to acceleration rates.  Granted, an unmanned craft could theoretically withstand higher G forces, things still tend to break.

Ah, but they can still do a barrel roll...

Here's a killer though: You can't evade a laser. End of space dogfight. :nervous:
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Offline Ionizd

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Re: Etheric Rudders and Stealth in Space
You do realize that "more maneuverable" does not equate to pitch and yaw rate, correct?  In a [next best thing to] frictionless environment, maneuverability is limited to acceleration rates.  Granted, an unmanned craft could theoretically withstand higher G forces, things still tend to break.
 Of course it does!  Any change in ship direction has consequences to the pilot.  Barrel rolls equate to a centrifugal force that may be equal to several times what a human's body can tolerate without catastrophic injury to the blood vessels in the head and feet of the poor pilot.  Remember, the pilot's blood and internal organs will tend to continue to travel in one direction while the ship pitches, yaws or accelerates in another.  Do this too abruptly, and the human body will definitely experience trauma.

  This isn't a new concept.  Pilots of modern combat aircraft cannot survive the maneuvers that their aircraft could do quite easily.  Avionics are programmed to actually limit the capabilities of the aircraft to protect the pilots from themselves.  Thus we have force feedback on the controls of the fighters.

Quote from: Herra Tohtori
Ah, but they can still do a barrel roll...

Here's a killer though: You can't evade a laser. End of space dogfight.
  Lasers are lousy weapons, too easily defeated by simple means.  A reflective surface almost completely mitigates the damage done by a direct hit, and you still have to aim the thing to hit a small moving target hundreds or thousands of meters away.  Try to paint a 150cm moving target from 100 meters away with a laser pointer sometime and see how hard it would be to evade that sort of weapon.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2009, 09:01:06 pm by Ionizd »
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Offline Scotty

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Re: Etheric Rudders and Stealth in Space
No, I mean that if a ship pitches or yaws in one direction does NOT mean that the ship will then fly in the direction it is pointing.  At least, not until thrust is applied.

I'm... not exactly sure what that barrel rolls comment means.  If a ship is in space, it is probably moving very fast, and engaging targets (if at all) at a rather long range (hundreds, if not thousands of Km, at the very least).

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Etheric Rudders and Stealth in Space
Here's a killer though: You can't evade a laser. End of space dogfight. :nervous:

Well, technically, you should, y'know, evade anyways at random so his targeting solution's not so good, but...
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Offline Scotty

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Re: Etheric Rudders and Stealth in Space
Quote
Try to paint a 150cm moving target from 100 meters away with a laser pointer sometime and see how hard it would be to evade that sort of weapon.

This is what those newfangled, whatchamadingits, computers I think they're called, are for.

  

Offline Ionizd

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Re: Etheric Rudders and Stealth in Space
No, I mean that if a ship pitches or yaws in one direction does NOT mean that the ship will then fly in the direction it is pointing.  At least, not until thrust is applied.

I'm... not exactly sure what that barrel rolls comment means.  If a ship is in space, it is probably moving very fast, and engaging targets (if at all) at a rather long range (hundreds, if not thousands of Km, at the very least).
 What is the point of that, other than to orient your weapons in a direction other than your flight path?  This would be an effective dogfighting tactic, but you will eventually have to change directions, and rapidly.  At the velocities I can imagine in a space dogfight, even re-orienting the human body quickly enough would result in injury.

 Even computers have their limits... The lag between the targeting, orienting a turret, and firing would be enough for a good pilot to easily evade such a weapon.  The very reason a human pilot, even that of a drone, is necessary is that humans don't act rationally and we are too unpredictable for a computer to easily dispatch.
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Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: Etheric Rudders and Stealth in Space
You do realize that "more maneuverable" does not equate to pitch and yaw rate, correct?  In a [next best thing to] frictionless environment, maneuverability is limited to acceleration rates.  Granted, an unmanned craft could theoretically withstand higher G forces, things still tend to break.
 Of course it does!  Any change in ship direction has consequences to the pilot.  Barrel rolls equate to a centrifugal force that may be equal to several times what a human's body can tolerate without catastrophic injury to the blood vessels in the head and feet of the poor pilot.  Remember, the pilot's blood and internal organs will tend to continue to travel in one direction while the ship pitches, yaws or accelerates in another.  Do this too abruptly, and the human body will definitely experience trauma.

  This isn't a new concept.  Pilots of modern combat aircraft cannot survive the maneuvers that their aircraft could do quite easily.  Avionics are programmed to actually limit the capabilities of the aircraft to protect the pilots from themselves.  Thus we have force feedback on the controls of the fighters.

I think you misunderstood what Scotty was saying.

Maneuverability in an airplane is a two fold thing. You have elevators that control the angle of attack vertically, rudders that control angle of attack horizontally and elevators that controls the attitude of the ship around it's longitudinal axis.

However, as far as maneuverability goes, the most important term for any combat airplane is actually defined by one factor: The maximum sustainable amount of lift.

This may sound counterintuitive, but all aircraft turn by using lift and thrust. They change their attitude with control surfaces, but the turn rate of the aircraft is entirely dictated by the amount of lift that it produces. When an aircraft rolls left or right, the lift force from wings is still headed "upwards" in relation to airplane - and now the vector is pointing to one side of the plane. So it has one component pulling the plane up and one component pulling the plane sideways.

The sideways force acts as a centripetal force and the airplane ends up in a circular motion known as "turn". Meanwhile, since part of the lift is now used to maintain lift, the airplane begins to lose altitude if nothing is done to correct the situation. Normally this is done by increasing angle of attack, which increases the total amount of lift so that the downward component is equal to airplane's weight and the plane won't descend during the turn.

Now, the amount of centripetal force generates centripetal acceleration which is known as the g-force in the turn. It's also obvious that when angle of attack is increased further, the centripetal force increases, forcing the aircraft on a smaller turn radius. Typically, each aircraft has it's own "sweet spot" or maximum cornering velocity where pulling back the stick will result in the largest amount of lift while the airplane's nose also pitches up at fastest rate. This is the velocity where the airplane turns the best - for a brief period of time. This is used as a break turn and it's typically employed to get inside a missile's - or a pursuing plane's - turn radius in an attempt to escape destruction.

However, increasing angle of attack is a dramatically energy-consuming maneuver since it increases the drag of the airplane greatly. As a result, more thrust is needed to maintain airspeed. Terms like maximum sustained turn rate come into play; an optimal turn rate at which the airplane's engines can produce enough thrust to counter the additional drag and maintain that airspeed. This is the single most important aspect of an airplane's maneuverability and comes into play especially in a sustained close range dogfight.


Now that we have established the aviation terminology for maneuverability, let's take a look at the situation where there's no atmosphere.

We soon notice that pitch, roll and yaw changes do nothing to your vector. You're just spinning around your center of gravity while going in the exact same direction as before. Sure, you can knock yourself out by spinning too hard but as you're going in a straight line at constant velocity, you'll be easy target to anything hostile, whether you're conscious or not. Since there's no lift to align towards the direction you want to turn to, you have to do something different.

In order to actually change your vector, course, travel direction or whatever you wanna call it, you need to fire your thrusters into the direction opposite from where you want to go. Also, ideally you should keep your thrust vector directed towards the desired center of turn for the duration of the turn. If you have static main thrusters, you need to turn your ship so that it is flying "sideways", and then engage full thrust and turn the ship slowly so that the heading of the ship is pointing towards that imaginary spot in space that you are looping around, much like a stone in a sling.

When you cut the thrusters, your ship will continue from the circular motion tangentually to the direction you want to be going to.

And much like in aviation, your ship's ability to produce thrust (actually, thrust to mass ratio, or acceleration in other words) is essentially the defining factor when measuring maneuverability in space. Certainly, pitch roll and yaw rates have their importance, but it is much easier to make a pivot ball space ship than one that can produce a lot of acceleration for a long time; propellant increases ship's weight significantly, so we have a catch-22 or something; you can prolong the operational combat time of a space ship by increasing propellant load, but if you increase the mass too much, the ship's turn rate suffers and it will die. But if you reduce the amount of propellant, the ship might run out of thrust during the fight and die...


Also, the reason why removing pilot increases possible maneuverability is, first and foremost, the pilot's health which is no longer the limiting factor in acceleration. Machines can take a lot more acceleration than human body can - in a sustained turn. Sure, humans can survive +100G collisions if no actual injury happens (refer to the rocket sled experiments) but in a sustained turn machines can function longer and better.

Secondly, performance is improved by removal of weight - pilot weight, controls, life support, cockpit structure, seat, cup holders and all the pilot's equipment for emergencies. Reduced mass means the acceleration is improved, which means life and death in space combat.

NGTM-1R: that only works at ranges where the laser beam takes some time beyond nanoseconds to reach the target. Even a lightmicrosecond might be sufficient, but that's a long distance still... and evading like that consumes propellant like there's no tomorrow.

Also, regarding this:

Quote from: Ionizd
Lasers are lousy weapons, too easily defeated by simple means.  A reflective surface almost completely mitigates the damage done by a direct hit, and you still have to aim the thing to hit a small moving target hundreds or thousands of meters away.  Try to paint a 150cm moving target from 100 meters away with a laser pointer sometime and see how hard it would be to evade that sort of weapon.

Obviously, you have missed something...

Sure, as infantry weapons they would be massively impractical. For other purposes... they have potential.


Also, barrel roll is just a reference to Star Fox games where Barrel Roll is some sort of super move. Kinda like Mario when he's eaten the Star. It's not even a real barrel roll, just a rapid roll... immortalized by a hare shouting you to DO A BARREL ROLL DO A BARREL ROLL DO A BARREL ROLL all the goddamn time.


Quote from: Ionizd
At the velocities I can imagine in a space dogfight, even re-orienting the human body quickly enough would result in injury.

Linear velocity has no effect on angular velocity. And human body can tolerate high angular velocities quite a bit better than linear acceleration, mainly because the dimensions of a human body are at average maximum about one metre from center of gravity.

Sure, it's disorienting as hell but doesn't actually damage a human being until the spin rates are rather insane.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2009, 09:54:21 pm by Herra Tohtori »
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Offline Kie99

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Re: Etheric Rudders and Stealth in Space
One more strike against unmanned:  intuition.  Heuristics and gut feelings may not be a science, but they can make a difference.

Gut instincts are tantamount to guessing.  You can make an algorithm which has a better chance of being right.
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: Etheric Rudders and Stealth in Space
There is no stealth in space. Apparently not even with today's technology. Sorry guys. Might be possible with some SF gadgetry.

Although RKVs are stealthy on the way in!

Okay, Ionizd, you are holding a number of understandable misconceptions.


I'm... not exactly sure what that barrel rolls comment means.  If a ship is in space, it is probably moving very fast, and engaging targets (if at all) at a rather long range (hundreds, if not thousands of Km, at the very least).

Very much so, to the point where maneuverability is totally irrelevant. Ships will engage at speeds of thousands of kilometers per second (ballpark figure), essentially acting as two bullets shot at each other, except the bullets are also shooting at each other. Maneuvering will mean nothing because there'll be only a small cone in which one can alter one's vector - and the enemy will fill that zone with debris.
.
Quote
Even computers have their limits... The lag between the targeting, orienting a turret, and firing would be enough for a good pilot to easily evade such a weapon.  The very reason a human pilot, even that of a drone, is necessary is that humans don't act rationally and we are too unpredictable for a computer to easily dispatch.

Unfortunately totally untrue. Humans are more predictable than computers and are far too slow to keep up with weapons systems that can be aimed, fired, and transited essentially instantaneously.

Furthermore it's not a matter of 'dodging' at all. You're just going to be running into a field of debris, mines, or waiting missiles at unsurvivable velocities. Space shotguns, and there's nothing to be done. Sadly deterministic.

Smaller, faster and more maneuverable ships are harder to hit in a dogfight, where stealth isn't really a factor.

There are no dogfights in space. Bullets can't dogfight.

Quote
Human controlled drones with AI aided evasion and threat detection would present more of a challenge to computer controlled point defense.  Sensory interfaces could allow for extra sensors (including point defense targeting data and shipboard target identification systems) to be routed to the human pilots, thus giving them the equivalent of extra sensory perception, which would be far superior to an unquantifiable sense of "intuition"

Humans can't perform the necessary calculations fast enough. Not that they'd be needed. You can plot an opponent's potential vectors and engage them hours in advance.

Quote
 Also, EMP would present a host of problems for not only your ship-to-ship comms, but your enemies' as well.  Hardened onboard AI could keep the drones intact long enough for the pilot interfaces to be re-established.  The change in the flight characteristics may even confuse the enemy fighters, thus giving the tactical advantage back to our side.

Even modern technology is essentially immune to EMP.

There will be no fighters in space. Missile buses maybe. Maneuverability means nothing; thrust is everything.

Lasers are lousy weapons, too easily defeated by simple means.  A reflective surface almost completely mitigates the damage done by a direct hit, and you still have to aim the thing to hit a small moving target hundreds or thousands of meters away.  Try to paint a 150cm moving target from 100 meters away with a laser pointer sometime and see how hard it would be to evade that sort of weapon.

There is no simple means to defeat a laser. The reflective-armor idea is an urban myth; any combat laser will smash through the mirror, since no mirror is 100% efficient and the leak will certainly vaporize the armor. Similarly, ablative armor can be easily defeated by pulse laser systems. Active defenses in the form of dispersed clouds of gas (an artificial atmosphere) might have some success, but the last analysis I read suggested they fail, again due to the pulse laser technique.

Laser aiming is easier than any other form of aiming, thanks to computers and the awesome travel speed. Within effective range, lasers cannot be evaded. The key, however, is that they're fairly short-range due to the lightspeed lag (apparently they aren't subject to inverse square law? How odd...)
« Last Edit: September 11, 2009, 12:08:00 am by General Battuta »

 

Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: Etheric Rudders and Stealth in Space
There is no simple means to defeat a laser. The reflective-armor idea is an urban myth; any combat laser will smash through the mirror without losing more than a fraction of its energy. Active defenses in the form of dispersed clouds of gas (an artificial atmosphere) might have some success, but the last analysis I read suggested they fail.

Laser aiming is easier than any other form of aiming, thanks to computers. Within effective range, lasers cannot be evaded. The key, however, is that they're fairly short-range due to the inverse square law.


Inverse square law works ideally for point sources of light, but lasers are ideally coherent beams of light with diameter of d to begin with.


Let's see the beam attenuation in percentages of intensity:

Intensity = power / area

distance, beam diameter, area, intensity percentages of original:

0 m, 10.0 cm, 78,5 cm^2, 100%
1000 m, 10.1 cm, 80,1 cm^2, 98.05%
2000 m, 10.2 cm, 81,7 cm^2, 96.12%


Traditionally, the inverse square law states that when distance doubles, intensity quarters. This is obviously not the case here. However, the drop in intensity does follow the inverse square law, and the intensity will start dropping faster as distance increases but it doesn't mean that the intensity of the laser beam itself would follow the same law.

Of course at reasonably long distances it starts to work better; for example when viewing at distances 100 kilometres and 200 kilometres where the beam diameter has widened up to 20 cm and 30 cm respectively, the difference at the intensities is more drastic but still doesn't exactly follow the inverse square law.
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: Etheric Rudders and Stealth in Space
Some amusing designs suggest firing a laser at a distant mirror, then using that mirror to focus the (diffuse, so reflectable) beam onto the target. Interesting plan!