[QuantumDelta]

From my wanderings amongst the internets I've made a great many friends, one of which is a rather cool dude known as Cromfel (Timangi), we met in WoW (the last online game I played significantly from release), he and I made a few pvp videos (arguably his were a lot better, mine were piss-takes ), we played the same class, and for a time the same role in that class.
Yesterday he poked me on MSN whilst I wasn't around so I left him a message saying I'd be about today, now, here's where it starts getting interesting;

Lucas Cromfel says (18:04):
 You here?
 I tried t ocontact you some time ago and you even replied but it has been on off on off 
Lucas Cromfel says (18:05):
 But I was wondering if you still play wow
QD says (18:05):
 'fraid not
Lucas Cromfel says (18:05):
 Oh bummer
QD says (18:05):
 3.1 and 3.2 kinda bored me ;p
Lucas Cromfel says (18:06):
 You are one of the few memorable fellas around 
 Me too
 But next expansion looks sweet
 Hopefully bringing back to good old times world pvp etc
QD says (18:06):
 hmmm
 we'll see
 I doubt it
Lucas Cromfel says (18:06):
 Hehe
Lucas Cromfel says (18:07):
 I just released new version of the Retribution Hideout www.paladin.battlefield.fi
QD says (18:07):
 hehe
Lucas Cromfel says (18:07):
 And was hoping you would still be interested but I dunerstand if you quit
 Any feedback always appreciated anyway from person like you!
QD says (18:07):
 well I'm almost full time prot now but I still <3 ret
QD says (18:08):
 i'll probably be back for arthas ;p
Lucas Cromfel says (18:08):
 I see, prot is nice its like our step brother
QD says (18:08):
 very nice site that is
Lucas Cromfel says (18:08):
 Aaa nicel
 Cheers
QD says (18:08):
 Would you like to see what I've been working on? ;p
Lucas Cromfel says (18:08):
 Man, if you ever feel like you want to contribute to the community like you did the old times. I would love to have you onboard
Lucas Cromfel says (18:09):
 Sure
QD says (18:09):
 I'm flattered, but I'm not as up to date and my theorycrafting is always slack when I haven't been paying much attention =<
Lucas Cromfel says (18:09):
 Hehe so you are like me!
 But alteast your paladin aint lvl 70!
 Whatsa working on then?
QD says (18:09):
 haha
QD says (18:10):
 unfortunately
 I don't have a system that can fraps so most of the trailors are quite old
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8HFEmGcJcWA
Lucas Cromfel says (18:10):
 Oooh working on video?
QD says (18:10):
 3.6.10 final is out, the mvps for it brings graphics up to damn-near 2009 quality
QD says (18:11):
 3.6.11 is ~500 revisions in progress
 lots of optimisations and stuff
Lucas Cromfel says (18:11):
 Sooooooooooo you are working for the GAME! Not the video or what?
QD says (18:11):
 I'm basically one of the go-to guys for multiplayer balancing and squadwar implementation
Lucas Cromfel says (18:12):
 Awesome!
 Freespace is one of the best games ever
 Dude, I got an idea
QD says (18:12):
 oh?
Lucas Cromfel says (18:13):
 Im working as research engineer at europes 3rd largest research organization. And we are now updating our virtual reality laboratory with motion platform etc...
 We gotta make freespace with motion platform that you can actually sit in the cockpit and feel the speed etc
QD says (18:13):
 that - sounds amazing
Lucas Cromfel says (18:13):
 Man, this is so insane
 I have had this idea for long
 And now you tell me that you work on the game
QD says (18:13):
 haha
QD says (18:14):
 well I'm not a coder or anythin ;p
Lucas Cromfel says (18:14):
 no no no but you got the contacts
 So we can arrange something official to promote your game
QD says (18:14):
 well that's true
 that sounds awesome
Lucas Cromfel says (18:14):
 I will show you
Lucas Cromfel says (18:15):
 http://www.vtt.fi/hms
 Thats what I do for living
QD says (18:15):
 my god
Lucas Cromfel says (18:16):
 See the guy in front of mining loader? Its my creation. And in that powerwall environment we use the virtual environments... basicly you get the motion platform in the middle with seat of the fighter and you can feel the turns etc its moving along the fighter
 http://manuvar.vtt.fi/index4.html
 Check the video out
 So you get better understanding... its me the guy sitting and using the stuff ;D
QD says (18:17):
 haha
QD says (18:18):
 man this rocks
 I've had such an interest in AR
Lucas Cromfel says (18:18):
 Haha dude we gotta make Freespace simulator!
QD says (18:19):
 you have like my dream job hahaha
 pity I have none of the skill sets applicable
Lucas Cromfel says (18:19):
 ROFL Yeah Im in my dream job also... purely because of my gamer background and engineering studies
QD says (18:20):
 nice deal ;p
Lucas Cromfel says (18:20):
 haha
QD says (18:20):
 initial reaction from one of the SCP guys was 'it's probably doable'
 orientation data and motion vectors wouldn't be that hard to port
Lucas Cromfel says (18:21):
 Indeed. And basicly all some coder has to do is make little plugin to get the data trough VRPN to our software
 Very easy
QD says (18:21):
 VRPN?
QD says (18:22):
 not VPN?
Lucas Cromfel says (18:22):
 Sec
Lucas Cromfel says (18:23):
 http://www.cs.unc.edu/Research/vrpn/index.html
 The Virtual-Reality Peripheral Network (VRPN) is a set of classes within a library and a set of servers that are designed to implement a network-transparent interface between application programs and the set of physical devices (tracker, etc.) used in a virtual-reality (VR) system. The idea is to have a PC or other host at each VR station that controls the peripherals (tracker, button device
Lucas Cromfel says (18:24):
 So we can run the Freespace on visualization computer and just deliver the coordinates to our HW server



- The conversation tailed there because he had to leave for the weekend (he'll be back sunday).
So, did we catch anyone's attention? ;D
I has no details as of yet but if this is workable it sounds AWESOME to me!

[General Battuta]

That would be crazy cool if it actually happened.

[chief1983]

There was some interest from the Virtual Worlds guys to get Freespace in their Pods too, I need to talk to them about that some more.  Not AR, but still pretty friggin cool since there's a dozen of them that could be used for some awesome multiplayer.

[Nuke]

full motion simulation just requires the a proper set of gearmotors, hydraulics, sensors, and some industrial robotics controlers. none of which btw is cheap. then its a matter of how well you can weld. or if you can get ahold of one of those old 2 axis motion fighter simulators you used to find at arcades in the mid 90s, then do a severe and quite hackish hardware upgrade. mod the **** out of it, maybe put in side and top lcd panels for looking around with.

as cool as that would be id take a different route. vr through detailed cockpit simulation. which is what my cockpit script will eventually do (and in certain cases does). by using an trackir + hmd you can make it slightly more realistic. take it a step further and add some kind of vr gloves to let you reack out and flip imaginary switches and buttons.

[Thaeris]

Mmmm...

Dome projector... 

[Cromfel]

Hello fellas

And thank QD for taking it up here.

Here is the deal, I have been thinking for possible applications for the motion platform, what has 3 Degrees of Freedom. What we can do there is have +-75mm up down motion heave and 14degrees roll and pitch with maximum repetition frequency of 15Hz. Say you go forward with your fighter, or use afterburner or whatever where you need to have feeling of acceleration, we can do it. Same with turnings and crashes for example just wibrate the "cockpit" and so on. Lets say some huge battleship is shooting near you we could easily get you in the scene and feel the power. Its just matter of how we deliver the motions.

In addition, to get immersion to maximum level, we would require to track the pilots head. So he can peak around the cockpit (Well rotation isnt necesary in our case since we have powerwall visualization). But the head position in 3D space is very important, let me give you 1 example ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jd3-eiid-Uw ). Ok now you got the idea for head tracking. We are using Vicon motion capture system, what can also be incorporated trough the VRPN as the motion platform data. Piece of cake so to speak.

Im enthusiastic gamer and I got pretty wild imagination, so I hope atleast someone here can see the mental picture of themself flying in space with their fighter feeling the turnings and inertia of mass when accelerating. Physically feeling the blastwaves and hiots of enemy fire (Well blastwaves are a bit artificial in space but still it would be wicked cool).

Summasummarum: We gotta make freespace simulator with motion platform, head tracking and all that stuff. it could be nice way also to gain some visibility for the project you are having. And in addition, if things go well, we could even aim for something really futuristic. We can submit tender for some of ESA / NASA wild calls for space applications. I have been working with Thales Alenia Space fellas quite lot recently (They have built over 50% of ISS), and I think if we can get convincing demo of the "space simulator" we could indeed go for some of the futuristic research projects they open every now and then to get fully funded by the agencies for what we do. Well in any case this is just future plans, first we gotta make something tangible

[General Battuta]

FreeSpace Open certainly has TrackIR support.

[Reprobator]

yes it has, For those kind of toy (dome style screen) it just lack of hud's widescreen support.
 

[Cromfel]

FreeSpace Open certainly has TrackIR support.

If we are to port stuff to VR trough VRPN we could utilize the full body motion capture system. Its slightly different from trackIR but in any case it could be used as 1st case tool for head tracking (Well we dont need the amplified head rotation in this case, but actually it could be quite nice feature as the screens cover ~field of view in static position, so it aint bad addition). Im not certain how exactly it is to be connected to the Vicon, But in any case its little technical detail, if we have to modify the trackir support.

Its great news anyway that there is already TrackIR support!

[Stormkeeper]

This ... is admittedly quite cool and attractive. But I suspect Interplay will squeal foul and sue the VR place for as much cash as they can to bring themselves back to life. Or offer to sell them the franchise. But leaving the demons aside...

This sounds ****ing cool. DO WANT!

[chief1983]

If they used it for profit, directly or indirectly, yes there'd likely be a problem.  But otherwise it should be fine.

[Cromfel]

Profit is not the aim here. Only to find cool ways of utilizing motion platform in full scale VR lab. Purely from personal experimental interests and for the opportunity to get some visibility for your game project. I simply love Freespace2, one of the best games ever when it comes to immersion. I had the motion platform idea for Freespace and/or mech warrior style of cockpit for a game what has nice surrounding for futuristic gameplay. I coulnt imagine better target for simulator as this than freespace, it just feels so damn natural.

You dont have to talk about "them", you can talk about me and my eager for trying this out as I have the lab at my full disposal. Summing up to fact that its in your disposal, since people seem to be interested in the idea as much as I am. We can do whatever we see fun or what we want to test out. As long as we dont want to get any money involved, I will work outside of office hours. if this is how we want proceed, so be it, im perfectly happy to just see how this kind of hardware can be used in good game.

As we have seen from peoples reactions, I suppose we have common understanding on the "How freakin cool this would be!" 

[Stormkeeper]

Yes, thing is, Interplay probably wouldn't care if you weren't using it for profit if they feel they could save themselves by suing you guys. Or they might. Who can fathom the depths of Interplay's thoughts.

[Aardwolf]

Kinda hard to get money out of someone who has none, isn't it?

[Stormkeeper]

* Stormkeeper shrugs.

Like I said, who can honestly understand how the owners of Interplay think?

That aside, I still think this'll be freaking awesome.

[Cromfel]

Ok, lets get to the business then. How hard it is to define cameraview from the space fighter to be presenting the same view what we see in the 3 projector powerwall setting? In other words, can we easily provide modified view with 3840 x 720 resolution? Powerwall what we have is shaped like this \_/ And in the middle we have the pilot. How we do it in our visualizationm, inside the "game" we have 3 planes representing the walls, then we just render view "trough" these reference walls and tie them together to form the full picture that is shown to the user. This way the 45 degree installation doesnt distrot the view compared to fully flat 3840x720 aspect ratio view.

Lets start from here so we can get the game up and running to start the other modding for the motion platform.

[Stormkeeper]

Well, the FS hud can more or less be evenly be divided into 3 sections.

On the left you have your target information display, middle is your crosshair, speed/weapon energy meter, radar, shield status and on the right are your weapons and energy meters. Looking at your screen, if we can split the FS hud evenly, it should be able to work fine.

[Reprobator]

The engine support that resolution well already, i personally use 3840*1024 -triple screen) with freespace, the 3d part render perfectly, and i do not have any kind of slowdown.
But the hud is stretched 3time in large in those resolution.

[Stormkeeper]

That's to be expected; FS2 wasn't created with multiple screens in mind. Without rewriting the code somehow, I doubt you can avoid that. But it's a minor issue for now imo.

[Reprobator]

It depend of what kind of target you are looking for, if you're leading a strike against a big ship, that's not a matter but fighter vs fighter is a pain with a 3time stretched crosshair, it's difficult to have precision.
Any way i fixed that by making cockpit with fixed crosshair and playing with alt+o  
well i just have to learn all the communication menu and turn it on to lock with missile.
Anyway Yes that's minor , because playing fso with 3 screen is like just beeing drop in the pilot seat  
And when we'll have the possibility to render the hud in the virtual cockpit, the issue'll get fixed.