Author Topic: Freespace 3  (Read 14141 times)

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Offline Qent

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He is attempting to create a fifty mission campaign, and I doubt it will be any good if he hasn't looked at any other third party campaigns, and just started doing the thing on his own. I say this because he may be wasting is effort. If he comes back a year from now and releases basically another SGWP2, then the "huge amount of work" he has done was all worthless.
That's why I think playing SGWP2 should be mandatory. If your campaign is better than that, then great. But if your first campaign involves the end of the Shivans, explaining Bosch, multiple juggernauts, etc., then chances are it's turning out like SGWP2.


 

Offline Mongoose

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Perhaps I shouldn't have been so...hostile about it...
Your hostility was maybe somewhat unwarranted, but I do agree that there's a lot of inherent value in lurking for a bit in a particular community before starting to post, especially if your first post involves some community-directed project that you're planning on creating.  Lurking helps you get a feel for the overall mood of the community that you're intending on joining, pick out some of the more notable members, and see what other people are working on, so that when you do decide to make your first post, you'll be able to fit right in without much trouble.  I don't think I've joined a single forum that I planned on having long-term involvement with before sitting back and reading for a significant amount of time; I know for a fact that I did it here.  The situation kind of changes if you're doing something like trying to run FS2_Open for the first time and running into some sort of technical trouble, in which case you'll obviously want help as soon as possible, but for something like introducing a prospective project, you'll definitely want to look around a bit first and see what has already been done.

(Also, this is all making me really want to replay SGWP2. :D)

 
In my opinion new users have NO obligations to this community beyond the basic cordial conduct expected between human beings.

On the other hand, this community has EVERY obligation to welcome new users in a friendly manner into this forum. What if this individual is the next Blaise Russel, the next Darium, the next Ransom and because of an unfriendly welcome they become discouraged and decide to not bother getting involved. And even if the campaign in question is not brilliant, the sheer amount of work he's already committed to it shows that he can be a very positive addition to this community. And this obligation to be friendly and accommodating to new users does not just apply in this specific case. In ANY case, it is a duty of all of us to be welcoming because quite frankly Freespace (or "FreeSpace" for the anal among us) is a dead game. It has been dead for a decade and the only way it will continue is through a vibrant community. Members are leaving all the time, the only way to continue it is through the addition of new members. Even a new user who never contributes anything in the way of user-generated content is a valuable addition because they can help motivate existing modders or simply spread the word about the community and lead other people to this website so that they too can join and contribute.

Everyone seriously needs to drop this holier than though bull**** when it comes to "noobish faux pas" and try to approach new users in a meaningful, constructive and helpful manner. If people can't take the time to be helpful to new users, why should those new members take an infinitely larger amount of time to bother generating user content for your benefit.


 

Offline Thaeris

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In my opinion new users have NO obligations to this community beyond the basic cordial conduct expected between human beings.

On the other hand, this community has EVERY obligation to welcome new users in a friendly manner into this forum. What if this individual is the next Blaise Russel, the next Darium, the next Ransom and because of an unfriendly welcome they become discouraged and decide to not bother getting involved. And even if the campaign in question is not brilliant, the sheer amount of work he's already committed to it shows that he can be a very positive addition to this community. And this obligation to be friendly and accommodating to new users does not just apply in this specific case. In ANY case, it is a duty of all of us to be welcoming because quite frankly Freespace (or "FreeSpace" for the anal among us) is a dead game. It has been dead for a decade and the only way it will continue is through a vibrant community. Members are leaving all the time, the only way to continue it is through the addition of new members. Even a new user who never contributes anything in the way of user-generated content is a valuable addition because they can help motivate existing modders or simply spread the word about the community and lead other people to this website so that they too can join and contribute.

Everyone seriously needs to drop this holier than though bull**** when it comes to "noobish faux pas" and try to approach new users in a meaningful, constructive and helpful manner. If people can't take the time to be helpful to new users, why should those new members take an infinitely larger amount of time to bother generating user content for your benefit.



Verily.  :yes:

Oh, and:

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Element Darius has been discovered!  :lol:
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Offline Snail

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Urgh.

I thought this community was beyond the stage that any mention of FreeSpace 3 would cause a ****storm. That was like, so 8 years ago.

 

Offline Droid803

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Sheer amount of work doesn't amount to anything if it's meaningless busywork, unfortunately.

I came off as an ass, but the real intention was to make sure that his efforts aren't wasted. If you're going to spend two to three years working on a project, you don't want it to flop horribly. If you're going to spend so much time and effort on something, then it should be as good as it can be.  I just didn't say it very well (ok, I didn't say it at all, but that's what I meant).

Honestly, I'd feel worse if three years of my work was absolutely wasted because I didn't get people's opinions, than if I was told to do so by someone else.
(´・ω・`)
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I came off as an ass, but the real intention was to make sure that his efforts aren't wasted. If you're going to spend two to three years working on a project, you don't want it to flop horribly. If you're going to spend so much time and effort on something, then it should be as good as it can be.  I just didn't say it very well (ok, I didn't say it at all, but that's what I meant).

Sometime's its better to finish a piece of garbage than it is to not finish a masterpiece. A masterpiece that goes unplayed because it was never finished is worth nothing, but a lackluster but released piece of work can be built upon and give someone a sense of accomplishment.

 

Offline Droid803

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Honestly, neither is any good. I see what you're getting at but I don't think it's right for this case.

You won't get a very good sense of accomplishment from releasing sub-par work that you worked on for a very long time but people do nothing but criticize, or worse, just outright ignore.

Unfinished masterpieces have legacies - sometimes they experience revivals, and at the very least, if you do a modeldump or something, people will remember it.

A three-year project isn't something you do just for "experience" or "sense of accomplishment". It's not worth it. If you're going to spend so much time on it, shouldn't it be memorable in some way? (and no, being memorably BAD and being the laughing stock of the decade like SGWP2 isn't really idea, I think). I'd imagine that it'd have a negative effect if it didn't do well.

Of course, this is going into the 'feelings' department which can vary greatly from individual to individual.
(´・ω・`)
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I'm a strong believer in finishing something. If you're continually starting projects and never finishing them you're just wasting your time (as I often do). You're not accomplishing anything except filling the passage of time. When something is finished, it gives you something to compare to, something to build upon and look back at and say "wow, I've improved a lot". My own campaign, despite being significantly shorter than what spud is proposing, was not that well received. But it doesn't mean I didn't want to continue the story. Criticism is healthy, I can say "oh yeah the dialogue in the last mission was kind of lackluster, I can do better".

If spud has already completed most of this campaign, he might as well go ahead and finish it. If it's not that well received, that's fine, if he gets motivated he can do better the next time.

If someone releases a campaign and receives nothing but negative criticism then it's the fault of the critics and not the campaign author. Any good critic will give both positive and negatives to a review to help the author build upon their skills and improve. In the end, nothing but positive reviews is just as unhelpful as nothing but negative reviews. One might argue that positive reviews help to motivate an individual but that depends upon that individual because negative feedback can be just as good if not a better motivator. The best approach to any review is to overall be positive while at the same time pointing out things which the reviewer feels can be improved upon. That's the best way to enable the author to both continue on and grow in their skills (assuming they intend to generate more content).

 

Offline Mongoose

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Urgh.

I thought this community was beyond the stage that any mention of FreeSpace 3 would cause a ****storm. That was like, so 8 years ago.
I'd hardly call this a ****storm at all, at least not to start with.  Four years ago or so, there probably would have been flat-out flames as the first few replies; as it is, people got a bit snarky, but nothing near that level.  The sad truth of the matter is that we've all heard the spiels and seen these sort of proposed campaigns many times in the past, so it's human nature that we'll wind up becoming a bit sick of it.  That's not a new user's fault in the least, since they wouldn't really be expected to know that, but I think it's an understandable emotional response on our parts.  

Akalabeth, I didn't mean to say that we should place certain particular expectations on newbies, or that we shouldn't welcome them in a friendly environment; especially on the latter point, nothing could be further from the truth.  I simply meant that, from my perspective, waiting a little while before first posting often entails a much easier transition into a new community and helps the newbie avoid certain issues.  I think that this is especially true if one intends on releasing a new project or application into a community; at the very least, you want to make sure that no one else has done the same exact thing before you.  There's obviously no real way that we could force people into lurking for a bit before posting, so we have to deal with both those that do and those that don't in an equally friendly manner.

Personally, what I really feel right now is sorry for spuds, since he's going to come back into the thread he created and see a whole mess of people talking about a side-topic he probably knows nothing about.  Maybe it'd be best for someone with mod-fu in here to split off the posts not directly pertaining to the topic.

 
what if, as a community, we feel out what Interplay would want for the publication rights and Volition would want for dev rights? Not easy, by any means, and it would most likely be beyond what anyone would want to be a part of....but there's the idea.
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Offline The E

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what if, as a community, we feel out what Interplay would want for the publication rights and Volition would want for dev rights? Not easy, by any means, and it would most likely be beyond what anyone would want to be a part of....but there's the idea.

Considering the discussion above this, this will come out all kinds of wrong. Kaloonzu, that question has been asked many times. One, Interplay is the only owner of the rights. Two, if Volition themselves (or rather THQ) say that the asking price is too high, what do you think does that say about the chances that this community can get in on that deal?
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Offline Droid803

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I'm a strong believer in finishing something. If you're continually starting projects and never finishing them you're just wasting your time (as I often do). You're not accomplishing anything except filling the passage of time. When something is finished, it gives you something to compare to, something to build upon and look back at and say "wow, I've improved a lot". My own campaign, despite being significantly shorter than what spud is proposing, was not that well received. But it doesn't mean I didn't want to continue the story. Criticism is healthy, I can say "oh yeah the dialogue in the last mission was kind of lackluster, I can do better".

If spud has already completed most of this campaign, he might as well go ahead and finish it. If it's not that well received, that's fine, if he gets motivated he can do better the next time.

If someone releases a campaign and receives nothing but negative criticism then it's the fault of the critics and not the campaign author. Any good critic will give both positive and negatives to a review to help the author build upon their skills and improve. In the end, nothing but positive reviews is just as unhelpful as nothing but negative reviews. One might argue that positive reviews help to motivate an individual but that depends upon that individual because negative feedback can be just as good if not a better motivator. The best approach to any review is to overall be positive while at the same time pointing out things which the reviewer feels can be improved upon. That's the best way to enable the author to both continue on and grow in their skills (assuming they intend to generate more content).

It's not that people only give negative reviews, but if I see largely negative reviews, I'm less likely to try it. I believe there are many people like that which will avoid something that's known to be bad. If it's not as good, fewer people will play it, meaning fewer comments in total. You also can't fault the critics sometimes for only giving negative criticism, if there's really nothing that's good (merely things that are marginally acceptable).

There's nothing saying that you can't finish it if you get some other people's opinion before releasing it. If you do, the end product will be better, and more worth the time you spent making it. You'll get more reviews because it'd be good rather than mediocre, and that in turn allows you to improve even more.

I've held off releasing a campaign I finished FREDding basically last year just to get people's opinions on it, and make it relatively bug-free before releasing. I'm making significant changes to some of the missions and they're turning out better for it. Between the improvement in my FREDding skills between now and last year, and because I was told which parts were illogical, so I could patch up plot holes as best as I can.

I don't see how stepping back, evaluating what you've done on the project, getting/considering some other people's opinions on it, and making adjustments can be a bad thing.
Conversely, I don't see how just doing your own thing and ignoring everybody else can be beneficial - even if it is good, having people to bounce ideas off of only makes it better!
« Last Edit: September 26, 2009, 09:53:23 pm by Droid803 »
(´・ω・`)
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It's not that people only give negative reviews, but if I see largely negative reviews, I'm less likely to try it. I believe there are many people like that which will avoid something that's known to be bad. If it's not as good, fewer people will play it, meaning fewer comments in total. You also can't fault the critics sometimes for only giving negative criticism, if there's really nothing that's good (merely things that are marginally acceptable).

There's nothing saying that you can't finish it if you get some other people's opinion before releasing it. If you do, the end product will be better, and more worth the time you spent making it. You'll get more reviews because it'd be good rather than mediocre, and that in turn allows you to improve even more.

I've held off releasing a campaign I finished FREDding basically last year just to get people's opinions on it, and make it relatively bug-free before releasing. I'm making significant changes to some of the missions and they're turning out better for it. Between the improvement in my FREDding skills between now and last year, and because I was told which parts were illogical, so I could patch up plot holes as best as I can.

I don't see how stepping back, evaluating what you've done on the project, getting/considering some other people's opinions on it, and making adjustments can be a bad thing.
Conversely, I don't see how just doing your own thing and ignoring everybody else can be beneficial - even if it is good, having people to bounce ideas off of only makes it better!

Have you considered that instead of redoing past missions and revamping what is a finished campaign you could be creating new missions and an entirely new, second campaign? Both arguments have their merits and I tend to favour the latter.

Alfred Hitchcock once said, "Films aren't finished, they're abandoned."

I think this is an idea that some campaign creators really need to learn and take to heart. And while we're at it George Lucas should learn it too. At some point in time a person needs to step back and say it's finished and just ship it out. The problem with most campaigns created for Freespace 2 or any other game is that the projects don't have hard deadlines so feature creep and revision time sets in and work is redone again and again and again.

Of course seeking input during the course of work can be beneficial, but it can also be a detriment. No one is going to share your exact vision for your campaign, and while you never have to take people at their word they can ultimately draw you off from what was once a singular vision, for better or for worse. It will be interesting for example how BP2 turns out, since Darius seems to have single-handidly created the first campaign and the second seems to be much more of a design by committee.

Having multiple people work on a campaign only exacerbates the situation because then consistency of quality or design goes out the window, unless each task is accomplished by only one individual. And in terms of mission balance and plot, sometimes its good to both have unbalanced missions and plot holes. If someone told Darius "Forced Entry is too hard, no one will like it" and then Darius made it a lot easier would many people remember the mission? If some unexplained events in FS2 like the sabotage of the Colossus or the fate of Bosch were spelled out in plain English would anyone talk about them? Or would they say "oh yeah, I know what happened. Whatever".  And if Ransom had me playtest Transcend for him I would've told him the missions are repetitive, and after x amount of time I stopped caring and just wanted it to end. So then maybe Ransom goes back and changes all sorts of stuff and then perhaps the campaign doesn't have the same impact for everyone who loved it. Sometimes flaws or mistakes (which are not bug-related) can be happy accidents and when someone erases those mistakes then that aspect of the campaign is lost.

In short what I'm saying is that the more people who are involved in a campaign, the more diluted the original vision for that campaign becomes. That's the downside to bouncing ideas off of people. Though sometimes the original vision is flawed and needs some "dilution".

An artist, such as a storyteller can distance themselves from a campaign and then come back to it and make their own revisions if necessary. But there should be a limit to revisions and a deadline in mind. Maybe for example someone says "okay, I'm done my campaign. I'll leave it for a week, or a month and give it another go. Then after I see what's wrong with it, I have one month to fix whatever i can then it's out the door".

And finally, bouncing ideas or getting help from someone else has another downside. There is more value in a person figuring out a problem for themselves, rather than simply being told what is wrong and how to fix it. Because the latter can be used as a crutch. I know, in art school I used to always talk to a certain teacher about drawing in perspective, or to a friend. Then when they were busy, or they couldn't help, I had to figure it out for myself. And that's when I really started to learn and things clicked. I believe it's the same with any sort of skill.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2009, 02:06:01 am by Akalabeth Angel »

 

Offline General Battuta

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Critique is extraordinarily valuable. You need to be prepared to disregard some of it, but you still need to seek it out in the first place.

Something like the recent 158th release shows the incredible important of beta testing and feedback. That campaign needed it badly.

 

Offline Droid803

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I don't get why you keep thinking that a little polishing up prevents it from ever getting released, AA. They're not mutually exclusive in any way.

Honestly, I prefer reworking existing missions than making new ones, on a principle basis. (When it comes to enjoyability, making a new mission is obviously more fun). It's the same principle as doing corrections on a test paper - you don't learn from your mistakes unless you fix them. You don't improve your FREDding unless you fix your mistakes. If you just speed off and make a new campaign and your first one was ****, expect your second one to be **** too. If you haven't taken the time to figure out why, then that's what will happen. If your first one was good, your second one can still be **** because you didn't take the time to reflect on why it was good and what its downfalls were. Obviously the reverse can happen because of flukes, but that's hardly a reliable aspect.

Happy accidents don't happen that often. I'm not saying that it won't, but I definitely wouldn't bet everything on it. It's like that story about the guy who finds a rabbit under a tree, and then never bothers doing anything again but sit under the tree waiting for another one. You don't let everything ride on luck unless you really have no choice.
(´・ω・`)
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I don't get why you keep thinking that a little polishing up prevents it from ever getting released, AA. They're not mutually exclusive in any way.

Honestly, I prefer reworking existing missions than making new ones, on a principle basis. (When it comes to enjoyability, making a new mission is obviously more fun). It's the same principle as doing corrections on a test paper - you don't learn from your mistakes unless you fix them. You don't improve your FREDding unless you fix your mistakes. If you just speed off and make a new campaign and your first one was ****, expect your second one to be **** too. If you haven't taken the time to figure out why, then that's what will happen. If your first one was good, your second one can still be **** because you didn't take the time to reflect on why it was good and what its downfalls were. Obviously the reverse can happen because of flukes, but that's hardly a reliable aspect.


Fixing mistakes and improving one's skill set is not specific to any one set of work. Mistakes can be "fixed" in new work just as well if not better than in old work. You said yourself you're making some major changes to some of your missions. Are you really fixing the missions, or are you more re-doing them? Could you not "re-do" that error in an entirely new mission? To give you an analogy of my own, as an artist if I'm drawing the human figure and I screw up the proportions I don't get out the eraser. I simply start a new drawing. Now maybe you consider this re-doing the old drawing or starting a new drawing but in both cases the principle is the same. The only difference is that at the end of the day I have two drawings on my page to look at, not one. And maybe the first drawing is a piece of crap compared to the second or maybe it has some value in the line and the energy of the stroke that the second does not. It is not inherently inferior because it is technically less sound.

In addition to that I personally find major revisions a serious motivation killer. Any time in my profession where I have to re-do work entirely I am not particularly impressed. Especially because such revisions are seldom an issue of technical quality but are rather arbitrary decisions by the director. People learn by doing, and if someone loses their motivation to rework their campaign then they're not learning anything because they're not DOING anything, they're simply delaying doing it. It would be more beneficial to them to realize their mistakes, revisit them in an ad-hoc manner and then fully address them in future work.

Learning is not dependant upon specific work, it's dependant upon the individual's mental approach to what they're doing. If a person is continually challenging themselves to improve, they do not need to re-do old work they only need to realize the mistakes therein and apply the lessons learned in future work.


In addition people need to realize that while perfection is always sought it can never be attained.
I am not saying that you are wrong for re-visiting your campaign. That is a choice which appeals to you and you should continue with it. But it is not an approach I would take. And given the inordinately long development times of some campaigns I'm not sure it's an approach that they should take either. I suppose in some ways it depends upon what you're striving for. Do you want your campaign to be one of the best, recommended to noobs as they join the forums. Or do you simply want to create something that people will enjoy. And with regards to the latter, how many people need to enjoy it before your work has been worthwhile? Even a "bad" campaign will have its fans. If even one or two people enjoy your work was it worthwhile? How many positive reviews are required before your work is justified? What percentage of negative reviews constitutes a failure?

Some people don't hold Trashman's campaigns in the highest regard, but a lot more people have enjoyed playing them than they've enjoyed playing BlackWater Operations. That isn't a commentary on what approach is good or bad, it is simply the reality of the situation. You can't enjoy something that isn't released.


Critique is extraordinarily valuable. You need to be prepared to disregard some of it, but you still need to seek it out in the first place.

Something like the recent 158th release shows the incredible important of beta testing and feedback. That campaign needed it badly.

Or maybe it's just the opposite. Maybe it needed to be released badly. How long has that campaign been in development? How many campaigns die a quiet, unnoticed death. How close was this campaign to dying out for good? At least with something out the door, there is an idea to be built upon. Something to garner interest. Maybe the team knew it had its flaws, but by releasing it they gain momentum to create something better. Sometimes it's best to just finish something, ANYTHING, so you can just move on instead of having past work drag you down into the depths on inactivity and disinterest.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2009, 02:42:52 pm by Akalabeth Angel »

  

Offline NGTM-1R

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Or maybe it's just the opposite. Maybe it needed to be released badly. How long has that campaign been in development? How many campaigns die a quiet, unnoticed death. How close was this campaign to dying out for good? At least with something out the door, there is an idea to be built upon. Something to garner interest. Maybe the team knew it had its flaws, but by releasing it they gain momentum to create something better. Sometimes it's best to just finish something, ANYTHING, so you can just move on instead of having past work drag you down into the depths on inactivity and disinterest.

Bull****. Campaigns die because they never complete their mods, feature creep the mods for new and shiney ones that never materalize, or because they don't build their missions. I've been inside the delay spiral a few times by now, sometimes as FREDder, usually as a tester. BWO radically rebuilt a mission based on tester comments that it just wasn't working in its current form in three days, counting intermediate steps. Other campaigns I've tested for have accomplished major changes to their missions based on the existence of plotholes in less time.

Testing and revision is never the cause of significant delay. There is absolutely no excuse for releasing a mission to the public with major bugs in it.
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Offline Droid803

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Fixing mistakes and improving one's skill set is not specific to any one set of work. Mistakes can be "fixed" in new work just as well if not better than in old work. You said yourself you're making some major changes to some of your missions. Are you really fixing the missions, or are you more re-doing them? Could you not "re-do" that error in an entirely new mission? To give you an analogy of my own, as an artist if I'm drawing the human figure and I screw up the proportions I don't get out the eraser. I simply start a new drawing. Now maybe you consider this re-doing the old drawing or starting a new drawing but in both cases the principle is the same. The only difference is that at the end of the day I have two drawings on my page to look at, not one. And maybe the first drawing is a piece of crap compared to the second or maybe it has some value in the line and the energy of the stroke that the second does not. It is not inherently inferior because it is technically less sound.

In addition to that I personally find major revisions a serious motivation killer. Any time in my profession where I have to re-do work entirely I am not particularly impressed. Especially because such revisions are seldom an issue of technical quality but are rather arbitrary decisions by the director. People learn by doing, and if someone loses their motivation to rework their campaign then they're not learning anything because they're not DOING anything, they're simply delaying doing it. It would be more beneficial to them to realize their mistakes, revisit them in an ad-hoc manner and then fully address them in future work.

It is easier to see your mistakes when they're right there in front of you and you have to fix it. If you "fix" it in a subsequent, seperate work, you could very well have not fixed it at all. When I fix my missions, I am more fixing than redoing. Only specific parts are redone, and it's always involving essentially the same principle, just carried out in a better manner. I can't stand dropping something I know I could make better if I've spent effort getting it as far as it did - I would feel all the time and effort I spent was wasted. I wouldn't have done it unless I liked the idea behind it, and I can't stand to have it sit below generally acceptable standard. Of course, if I know its un-salvageable, I wouldn't bother. I'm more motivated to fix mistakes that have been pointed out than to make something new. (In fact, I find myself unable to make anything new if I know there's something to be fixed.)

Maybe the difference here is that I'm mildly OCD and you're mildly ADD. :P

I didn't play TrashMan's campaigns, because I heard about all the bugs. I hardly think I would enjoy it even if I did. I did try Ch1, but I was bitten by so many bugs it started hurting, and I ragequit. I treat them as a modeldump now. Quite useful in that regard.

Same thing happened with 158th. :/ The "Ah! I'm dead!" thing reminded me of DEM, except it was meant to be serious rather than comical. It was...bad. I couldn't finish it. I expected something decent given the long development time, but I was sorely dissapointed.
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Offline Mongoose

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    • Something
Same thing happened with 158th. :/ The "Ah! I'm dead!" thing reminded me of DEM, except it was meant to be serious rather than comical. It was...bad. I couldn't finish it. I expected something decent given the long development time, but I was sorely dissapointed.
Yeah, the 158th campaign never should have been released in its present form.  There is something to be said about finally getting content out there, but when said content largely consists of completely disconnected missions that seemingly only serve to feature new models and skyboxes, you'd almost be better off just doing an assets dump.  It doesn't help matters that no one from the team has commented on any of the real concerns raised as of yet...