[Unknown Target]

Alright, what about this:
subspace.
Now, I know that this is getting off to a bad start in fantasy-land, due to the fact that s-space is also featured in the FS series, however, I'm deathly serious about this.
Since, according to Einstein, light-speed travel is impossible because of the inherent problem of the fact that the traveler's mass would become infinent, and therefore, you would become a strand of spaghetti.

So, how about subspace? It's perfectly logical, with the increased speed as you tunnel through space, however, it also has it's share of problems. For instance, we don't know exactly what it is. And that is what this discussion is for. When we gather enough info on it, I'll try to start another thread, dealing with how this could be made to happen.

First off, I'm going to say that subspace is not a whole in space, where the ship transports into a fantasy-world of swirling colors and magical shivan ships:D. That's what FS says it is. I think it's a bit stranger, however. For instance, I don't think that subspace is something we can touch/feel, and this because all of it is negatively charged. If you think about it, it is the 5th dimension, where the first four are the ones we live in (although, I've heard time is the 5th, so this would be the sixth dimension, whatever:D), where everything is opposite to what we live in. We live in a positive universe, and subspace is the universe below us, the negative universe. As for the one above us, well, that's left for another discussion, and another topic.
Also, I think that subspace does not accelerate time, only alter our preception of it. After all, we're not moving very fast in our universe, we're moving fast on an entirely different universal plane! So,therefore, time where we are slows down (to the traveler), but time in our normal universe stays the same.
I've got to go no, so I'll see what you guys think.

Unknown Target

[Nico]

well, I just have this stupid idea that subspace is were all this black matter ( supposed to make up half or universe, but scientits haven't a clue where all this as gone -or maybe it's another matter, I can be mistaken), it's another dimension, yup, and there, lwas of physics are different and ships can travel much faster there, tho they can't control their direction ( hence the fact that you're sucked all along this tunnel, and whatevers your speed, the tunnel will still scroll in the same direction). Voila, it's just my opinion, an I don't ask anybody to share it if they're againts

[KillMeNow]

minor correction time is the 4th dimsion

other than that its all sci fi so cant comment but there is no evidence to support a subspace as shown in games etc if anything its tiny coiled up strings so small they cant be detected however that said traveling through them is still teoretically possible acoording to afew theorys i read but nothing concerte all highly speculative

[mikhael]

Originally posted by Unkown Target
Alright, what about this:
subspace.
Now, I know that this is getting off to a bad start in fantasy-land, due to the fact that s-space is also featured in the FS series, however, I'm deathly serious about this.
Since, according to Einstein, light-speed travel is impossible because of the inherent problem of the fact that the traveler's mass would become infinent, and therefore, you would become a strand of spaghetti.

Um. More accurately, the amount of energy required for any object with mass to reach the speed of light is infinite. IE, to accelerate a single particle with mass to the speed of light, you would have to expend all the energy in the universe--and it still wouldn't be enough.

So, how about subspace? It's perfectly logical, with the increased speed as you tunnel through space, however, it also has it's share of problems. For instance, we don't know exactly what it is. And that is what this discussion is for. When we gather enough info on it, I'll try to start another thread, dealing with how this could be made to happen.

Subspace is science fiction fluff to explain the 'advanced' technology of Star Trek. It has no scientic basis.

First off, I'm going to say that subspace is not a whole in space, where the ship transports into a fantasy-world of swirling colors and magical shivan ships:D. That's what FS says it is. I think it's a bit stranger, however. For instance, I don't think that subspace is something we can touch/feel, and this because all of it is negatively charged. If you think about it, it is the 5th dimension, where the first four are the ones we live in (although, I've heard time is the 5th, so this would be the sixth dimension, whatever:D), where everything is opposite to what we live in.

We exist in a 3+1 space: length, breadth, depth and duration. X, Y, Z and tau (time). Anything beyond that is hypothetical mathematical constructs postulated to help explain relationships between particle interactions on quantum scales. Do some research on string theory. You'll find out plenty of good hypothetical information.

We live in a positive universe, and subspace is the universe below us, the negative universe. As for the one above us, well, that's left for another discussion, and another topic.

I don't have words.

Also, I think that subspace does not accelerate time, only alter our preception of it. After all, we're not moving very fast in our universe, we're moving fast on an entirely different universal plane! So,therefore, time where we are slows down (to the traveler), but time in our normal universe stays the same.
I've got to go no, so I'll see what you guys think.
Unknown Target

Time is relative. It speeds up and slows down based on who is timing an event, and how fast they are moving. Only the speed of light is constant.

[KillMeNow]

i didn't read to closely lol but i think micheal said it all lol

[wEvil]

subspace IMO is simply a glorified wormhole...the universe from "outside"

String theories...uhg.  My head hurts.

I prefer...multiverse/quantum membranes as a better explanation but it still doesnt work.

Its almost like everyones trying so hard to make the maths work it..is.  which leads onto a very interesting philosophical debate on whether the physical reality of the universe is purely subjective, IE, if you want that equation on string theory to work, it will.

Either way..matching these theories to observational evidence is hundreds of years away and/or impossible.

[Crazy_Ivan80]

Originally posted by mikhael
Subspace is science fiction fluff to explain the 'advanced' technology of Star Trek. It has no scientic basis.

Nah, subspace is the space in the cellar of your house

[Zeronet]

Why move yourself, when the universe can move for you! Warp Travel in ST is possible as a form of FTL travel.

[Stunaep]

Originally posted by Crazy_Ivan80


Nah, subspace is the space in the cellar of your house

whew, at last a sentence i can understand!!!
Wowee!

[Unknown Target]

Of course, like I said, this is all conjecture, and even though many scientists have theory's about it, the truth is that it may (and probably) not exist.
However, the reason I started this thread is so that we could seperate fact from fiction, even if it means totally killing the idea.

[CP5670]

We exist in a 3+1 space: length, breadth, depth and duration. X, Y, Z and tau (time). Anything beyond that is hypothetical mathematical constructs postulated to help explain relationships between particle interactions on quantum scales. Do some research on string theory. You'll find out plenty of good hypothetical information.

Yeah, no such thing has really been observed or is even accepted as possible (or impossible) yet; more data is required to make a physics conjecture. It would indeed make sense though to have not only an infinite number of dimensions, but an infinite number within a finite interval. In other words, the "subspace" would be something like the 2.5th, 2.9th, pth, etc. dimensions (everything between the integer dimensions) and could provide a slightly different path to get through two points in the 3D universe. Mathematically it is quite possible and makes perfect sense for other dimensions to exist, but it is of course unobservable so far.

More of an issue, however, is moving out of our universe/dimension and into another. The blue tunnel effect in FS doesn't really make any sense and is probably just there to look cool. (an instantenous transition seems more realistic) If this was at all possible, I think that it would either have to exploit properties of quantum entanglement or the extreme spacetime curvatures around massive objects, particularly at infinitely-curved singularity points. It would of course be impossible for humans to utilize if the latter possibility was correct, but we can theorize all day, right?

[an0n]

I'd like to take this opportunity to say a few things:
1) Subspace was invented by Gene Roddenberry to explain warp. He admitted this many times, literally saying that he just made it up.
2) Some theoretical FTL physics thingies have adopted the term subspace so that they don't have to explain their FTL universes/regions/domains to the less informed people in an extremely detailed manner. Everyone is familiar with startrek and the fact that subspace means FTL.
3) All scientific data on unknown or theoretical occurances is based upon observation of things within our measurable field of view. We know gases expand when heated because we sealed containers and heated them. They popped. Unles we discover some form of energy or matter which we can control, measure and manipulate which also affects subspace then we will never invent any kind of subspace technology. Think of it like this: If there is a person who is, say, out of phase with us. They can see, hear, smell, taste everything in our universe but they cannot move anything or interact in any way with us. Then they are quite simply, not there. My point is, if we can't find a way to interact with something then it isn't there.
4) If the laws of physics are set by the universe rather than the individual particles, then as soon as any subspace drive entered subspace it would cease to function and either be annihilated or trapped in subspace with no way to get back or interact with anything in subspace. However if (as I beleive) the laws of physics are determined on a molecular level, then all the nice subspace particles would most likely begin interacting with the subspace drive and anything attatched to it, probably annihilating it in the process.

[Unknown Target]

Originally posted by an0n
I'd like to take this opportunity to say a few things:
1) Subspace was invented by Gene Roddenberry to explain warp. He admitted this many times, literally saying that he just made it up.
2) Some theoretical FTL physics thingies have adopted the term subspace so that they don't have to explain their FTL universes/regions/domains to the less informed people in an extremely detailed manner. Everyone is familiar with startrek and the fact that subspace means FTL.
3) All scientific data on unknown or theoretical occurances is based upon observation of things within our measurable field of view. We know gases expand when heated because we sealed containers and heated them. They popped. Unles we discover some form of energy or matter which we can control, measure and manipulate which also affects subspace then we will never invent any kind of subspace technology. Think of it like this: If there is a person who is, say, out of phase with us. They can see, hear, smell, taste everything in our universe but they cannot move anything or interact in any way with us. Then they are quite simply, not there. My point is, if we can't find a way to interact with something then it isn't there.
4) If the laws of physics are set by the universe rather than the individual particles, then as soon as any subspace drive entered subspace it would cease to function and either be annihilated or trapped in subspace with no way to get back or interact with anything in subspace. However if (as I beleive) the laws of physics are determined on a molecular level, then all the nice subspace particles would most likely begin interacting with the subspace drive and anything attatched to it, probably annihilating it in the process.

Gruesome thought.........

[Crazy_Ivan80]

Originally posted by an0n
I'd like to take this opportunity to say a few things:
 Think of it like this: If there is a person who is, say, out of phase with us. They can see, hear, smell, taste everything in our universe but they cannot move anything or interact in any way with us. Then they are quite simply, not there. My point is, if we can't find a way to interact with something then it isn't there.

sorry to say but this appears to be incorrect.

Hearing, tasting, smelling and seeing is interacting.
To hear you need to block soundwaves, made out of air (thus stopping movement)
To smell you need to be able to affect the movement of air into you nose
To taste you must be able to eat, drink or move air onto your tongue
To see you need to be able to catch the reflection of photons on stuff.

[an0n]

Me-ta-phor.

I was merely trying to illustrate that if something can't affect us then for all intents and purposes, it ain't there.

[CP5670]

I was merely trying to illustrate that if something can't affect us then for all intents and purposes, it ain't there.

I quite agree on that point; at least, things that do not affect our universe should not be taken into account until all other possibilities have been fully analyzed. Still, subspace/hyperspace/etc. does actually make sense by mathematics; it just has not been physically observed. (kind of like Neptune, several decades ago)

[mikhael]

Originally posted by Zeronet
Why move yourself, when the universe can move for you! Warp Travel in ST is possible as a form of FTL travel.

I assume that you are referring to the Alcubierre 'Warp' Effect. Sure, you'd be moving purely at subrelativistic velocities, but the contraction wave at the leading edge of your movement and the expansion wake you leave behind you would have problematic side effects, like ripping stars apart and leaving their bits strewn carelessly across several lightyears of space.

Besides that, you would need to generate matter with a negative density. Good luck.

[Styxx]

You just need to ask the aliens howe they do i... er... why's everyone looking at me funny?

[LtNarol]

bah, quantum physics isnt my field.  I'll just say what Mark told me:  Subspace is kinda like a the chocolate pudding in a chocolate-vanella pudding bowl (real-space is the vanella part and the bowl would be the universe).  Traveling through a wormhole should be traveling through subspace, as wormholes (in theory at least) are tunnels in subspace.  The ST warp travel thing is based off the idea that speeds are different in subspace and that by riding half way between realspace and subspace, you can go faster than the speed of light (all theoretical and mostly BS).  On the other hand, if a ship could survive traveling through subspace, you can (theoretically once again) get from one place in the universe to another faster than light would.  You would not actually travel faster than light, but you would still get there sooner (based of the theory that the subspace plain distorts speed).

As you probably figured out already, everything we know about subspace, including the possiblity that it even exists, is completely theoretical.  We dont even know if wormholes exist.

[mikhael]

Originally posted by LtNarol
As you probably figured out already, everything we know about subspace, including the possiblity that it even exists, is completely theoretical.  We dont even know if wormholes exist.

Um. No. Everything we 'know' about subspace came from Gene Roddenberry. Its StarTrek Physics. It has--repeat after me--No Basis In Real World Physics.