[Goober5000]

We declare the right of the people of Ireland to the ownership of Ireland, and to the unfettered control of Irish destinies, to be sovereign and indefeasible. The long usurpation of that right by a foreign people and government has not extinguished the right, nor can it ever be extinguished except by the destruction of the Irish people...

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125456184521661679.html?mod=WSJ_hpp_MIDDLETopStories

DUBLIN -- Irish voters approved the European Union's Lisbon Treaty in a substantial shift of sentiment, with 67% voting in favor and 33% against, according to the final count announced Saturday.

...Seriously, WTF, Ireland?  You've been independent for less than 100 years and you now decide to sign it away?

[IceFire]

Unless I'm missing something. The Lisbon Treaty still maintains Ireland's independence ... it may even secure it better than ever before.  When I was there last year I know it was a hot button issue that was very thoroughly debated.

[NGTM-1R]

IIRC, Goob's a libertarian, which is one step up on the not-viewing-reality-correctly scale from objectivism, so...

But I don't think anyone actually has the view he espouses. Even him.

[FreeSpaceFreak]

They'd damn better agree. Without the EU, they'd still be herding their sheep all day. They might as well do something back by now.

[zookeeper]

We declare the right of the people of Ireland to the ownership of Ireland, and to the unfettered control of Irish destinies, to be sovereign and indefeasible. The long usurpation of that right by a foreign people and government has not extinguished the right, nor can it ever be extinguished except by the destruction of the Irish people...

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125456184521661679.html?mod=WSJ_hpp_MIDDLETopStories

DUBLIN -- Irish voters approved the European Union's Lisbon Treaty in a substantial shift of sentiment, with 67% voting in favor and 33% against, according to the final count announced Saturday.

...Seriously, WTF, Ireland?  You've been independent for less than 100 years and you now decide to sign it away?

Well, what's wrong with that?

The Lisbon Treaty on the other hand is, AFAICT, a huge bloated pile of bureaucratic nonsense no one really seems to be able to understand. It's quite a gamble to vote for something you don't really understand, since it can in practise end up meaning pretty much anything.

[TopAce]

It's quite a gamble to vote for something you don't really understand, since it can in practise end up meaning pretty much anything.

You've summed up the main defect of democracy in one sentence.

[Stormkeeper]

It's quite a gamble to vote for something you don't really understand, since it can in practise end up meaning pretty much anything.

You've summed up the main defect of democracy in one sentence.

QFT.

[vyper]

Oh this is just wonderful isn't it. We've just created a European Nation from the EU without anyone really batting an eyelid.

[Kie99]

There are still two countries who haven't signed up to it (it requires all EU countries to), and Cameron's going to have a referendum if he gets in, which is looking pretty likely.

[Goober5000]

Unless I'm missing something. The Lisbon Treaty still maintains Ireland's independence ... it may even secure it better than ever before.  When I was there last year I know it was a hot button issue that was very thoroughly debated.

Increased centralization means decreased autonomy at the local level.  Insofar as the EU now has authority over Ireland, Ireland is no longer a sovereign entity.

Take a look at these charts on Wikipedia.  In the "exclusive competence" and "shared competence" policy areas, Ireland (and for that matter any other EU state) can no longer make its own decisions, in its own way, for its own interests.  And that's quite a large number of policy areas.

It all depends on which you value more highly: sovereignty or the economy.

[karajorma]

The list was already pretty long.

Only the Europhobes are really paying this any attention and they automatically run around like headless chickens whenever Europe does anything. We had exactly the same complaints and had failed referendums for Maastricht. Not to mention having the Labour party (who are now denying the voters a referendum) arguing in favour of a referendum while the Tories refused the voters one and are now arguing for it.

And as we all know Maastricht was a complete and utter disaster for Europe and led to it becoming a third world totalitarian state. Oh wait. It didn't.

[McCall]

I wonder if there'll ever be a vote that ends with us having less of these nosey government folks. Most of them seem to be a vote to either keep as many or get some more.

We'll soon have more folks paid to boss us around than you can wave a really big stick at. Though a lot of them will be in Brussels, so they probably won't see me waving the stick anyway from over there.

How's New Zealand doing? Always got the feeling they might leave you alone a bit if you lived out there.

[Black Wolf]

New Zealand's not really the place to be if you don't like intrusive governments.

Plus it's full of kiwis

[TESLA]

Well I voted 'no' because I don’t believe any treaty that is 'self altering' is a good thing.

Lot of people voted yes out of fear really. Bad economy, etc.

But the EU and its Lisbon treaty does not ruin Ireland’s sovereignty.

It only streamlines the functions of the European Union. It was becoming unmanageable with its current expanded membership.

Ireland received guarantees which are legally binding regarding our anti-abortion policy, neutrality, taxation and the keeping of our commissioner.

Don’t get me wrong, I generally like the EU. I think it’s a very good thing.
Helped to provide Economic aid and reform to the continent.
Kept Germany inside its own borders.
Generally kept the peace.
Single currency is real handy for travelling around the continent and for price comparison issues. (See how much we are getting ripped off)

But I do not want to see a United States of Europe.

[BloodEagle]

But I do not want to see a United States of Europe.

Trust me, no one wants to see that. 

[McCall]

Dammit, Blackwolf. At this rate I'm gonna have to buy me and the missus tickets to the moon or something. She left her country to get away from her lot of meddling buggers, I moved to a less 'Red' patch of England to escape mine, but the sneaky sods just seem to keep on breeding. I think we might've run out of places to... well, run. Arse.

I am wondering if folks are getting a bit too het up about this Lisbon thing though. I mean, we could give those middle-aged cheese-sniffers all kinds of powers, but they'd probably be too disorganised (or on strike) to actually do anything much with them.

And they do sometimes come out with real gems, such as the enthralling epic Commission Regulation (EC) 2257/94, a stunning piece of literary gold about bananas:

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:31994R2257:EN:HTML

I sleep better at night knowing there's someone who cares as deeply as me about the curvature of fruit.

[StarSlayer]

New Zealand's not really the place to be if you don't like intrusive governments.

Plus it's full of kiwis

You forgot killer sheep

[IceFire]

But I do not want to see a United States of Europe.

That is the most interesting thing for me about the EU.  Its not the United States of Europe ... at least not yet ... but my sense is that it isn't going in that direction.  Its a bit looser and each of the member countries seems to operate autonomously within the whole.  I think this can be only good things and the optimist in me has seen the major powers of Europe enter a period of peace that is nearly unprecedented.

I also think the EU is a good counter to the US without being in direct conflict.

[Kosh]

But I do not want to see a United States of Europe.

That is the most interesting thing for me about the EU.  Its not the United States of Europe ... at least not yet ... but my sense is that it isn't going in that direction.  Its a bit looser and each of the member countries seems to operate autonomously within the whole.  I think this can be only good things and the optimist in me has seen the major powers of Europe enter a period of peace that is nearly unprecedented.

I also think the EU is a good counter to the US without being in direct conflict.

In reality you might not have much of a choice, if Europe wants to remain a strong voice in the world that is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_states_and_union_territories_of_India_by_population
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provinces_of_People%27s_Republic_of_China

Look at those lists, and look at the population figures. In 50 years time when both of those nations have developed to an even greater degree than now, where will Europe be? It will be insignificant. Like the old germanic kingdoms in the mid to late 19th century, they could either join together or just fade away, dreaming of better days. Europe's irrelevance is already happening, welcome to the 21st century.

[zookeeper]

In reality you might not have much of a choice, if Europe wants to remain a strong voice in the world that is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_states_and_union_territories_of_India_by_population
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provinces_of_People%27s_Republic_of_China

Look at those lists, and look at the population figures. In 50 years time when both of those nations have developed to an even greater degree than now, where will Europe be? It will be insignificant.

So? Are you saying Europe will be disproportionately insignificant or just as insignificant as it should be due to its population?