Author Topic: Juggernaut Crash  (Read 7969 times)

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Offline Killer Whale

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  • Oh no, not again.
A Sathanas juggernaut is in orbit below 1000 km above Earth's surface. It's engines get destroyed in a battle and it begins to turn. The juggernaut loses orbit and begins to plummet to the earth's surface. It hits modern day london. What effect would this have on Earth? It takes several terratonnes of dynamite (applied externally) to destroy and is 6km in length. What would happen where it hit? Would life on the planet be extinguished? Or only in britain. Would every human in europe die? A billion people, a million, a thousand, or one? What would be left of the juggernaut? The four spires render, a smoking ship as seen in wheel a fortune freespace style, or would it be instantly vapourised. Discuss

 

Offline Sushi

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This. But with London, not Paris.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGsaOSpNI1Y


EDIT: Of course, a real spaceship in orbit wouldn't just fall down if it lost engines. It would stay in orbit for a very long time, until the orbit decayed.

 

Offline mxlm

  • 29
In real physics, Earth is no longer a viable habitat for humanity. In FS2 physics, no big deal.
I will ask that you explain yourself. Please do so with the clear understanding that I may decide I am angry enough to destroy all of you and raze this sickening mausoleum of fraud down to the naked rock it stands on.

 
Well, we could get a(n extremely) ballpark estimate.

Considering how tough the Sathanas is, it should be safe to say that it wouldn't experience any burn-up nor would it explode (either in the air or upon impact).

The speed of impact should be somewhere around orbital speeds, let's say 10 kilometers per second.  This is slower than the velocities meteorites can achieve (the meteorite that created the Vredefort Crater could have possibly been traveling at 55 km/s) and remember, the energy carried is related to the square of the velocity.

We'll make an assumption that the Sathanas has a super dense hull, let's say 1 billion tons (note that a solid block of iron the volume of the Sathanas would be more in the order of 100 billion tons).

That would give us a 12 gigaton impact which would certainly be more than simply catastrophic but not really an extinction level event.


Incidentally, Chicxulub is estimated to have been 100 teratons (I plugged in 55km/s [fast meteor] and 500 billion tons [4km cube of iron] and got 180 teratons so my estimation  calculation seems to be the right order of magnitude).
« Last Edit: October 17, 2009, 03:42:28 am by ChronoReverse »

 
http://www.lpl.arizona.edu/impacteffects/
Play here a little :>

http://www.lpl.arizona.edu/impacteffects/cgi-bin/crater.cgi?dist=2000&distanceUnits=1&diam=5&diameterUnits=2&pdens=&pdens_select=8000&vel=11&velocityUnits=1&theta=30&wdepth=&wdepthUnits=1&tdens=2500

entered some values that would probably represent your scenario, though you normall don't lose your orbit due to engine failure. (I entered 5 km as diameter because the calculator assumes a sphere)

 
A sphere of iron 5 kilometers in diameter almost certainly masses more than the spindly Sathanas (of which the primary hull is probably hollow) but at least that calculator seems to agree with my estimate when I adjust accordingly to get a sphere of 1 billion tons.

All that extra information is pretty neat =)
« Last Edit: October 17, 2009, 03:42:40 am by ChronoReverse »

 

Offline Herra Tohtori

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Nothing much happens to the world. Local destruction is immense, but it wouldn't be anything like an asteroid or comet impact. Relative velocity here is the key. If it would crash on Siberia or Canada, it would cause a lot of windows to break, maybe couple thousand reindeers and bears would snuff it, but that's about it.

Remember, we're talking about an object that is, at the beginning of the scenario, orbiting Earth. That means it has roughly the same velocity as Earth does; at maximum it's velocity relative to surface would be 11.2 km/s at the time of impact which is not exactly fast when you compare it to objects that are orbiting Sun, like asteroids and comets. Very likely the velocity would be significantly smaller, something like seven or eight kilometres per hour would not sound out of place.

Maximum velocity for objects that orbit the Sun is about 72 km/s, for comparision, and typical comet impact velocities are around 50 km/s.

At impact velocities below 15 km/s there is no fireball, the object just plummets to the ground, so no thermal damage. Most damage is caused by seismic vibrations and air blast. If it were to hit an ocean, it would create a tsunami, which would cause more destruction on coastlines, but it wouldn't be the end of world as we know it (except by revealing Shivan existence to the world).


University of Arizona has a handy tool for occasions such as this: Impact effect calculator

Estimating the mass of a Sathanas is difficult. I ended up using density of water (1000 kg m^-3) and diameter of three kilometres. Changing the density to iron did not significantly change the outcome. The effects of impact at maximum velocity of 11 km/h were as follows:

Quote
Your Inputs:
    Distance from Impact: 500.00 km = 310.50 miles
    Projectile Diameter: 3000.00 m = 9840.00 ft = 1.86 miles
    Projectile Density: 1000 kg/m3
    Impact Velocity: 11.20 km/s = 6.96 miles/s
    Impact Angle: 45 degrees
    Target Density: 2500 kg/m3
    Target Type: Sedimentary Rock

Energy:
    Energy before atmospheric entry: 8.87 x 1020 Joules = 2.12 x 105 MegaTons TNT
    The average interval between impacts of this size somewhere on Earth during the last 4 billion years is 1.4 x 106years

Major Global Changes:
    The Earth is not strongly disturbed by the impact and loses negligible mass.
    The impact does not make a noticeable change in the Earth's rotation period or the tilt of its axis.
    The impact does not shift the Earth's orbit noticeably.

Crater Dimensions:
    What does this mean?


    Transient Crater Diameter: 14.3 km = 8.91 miles
    Transient Crater Depth: 5.07 km = 3.15 miles

    Final Crater Diameter: 20.4 km = 12.7 miles
    Final Crater Depth: 0.733 km = 0.456 miles

    The crater formed is a complex crater.
    At this impact velocity ( < 12 km/s), little shock melting of the target occurs.

    Thermal Radiation:
        What does this mean?


        At this impact velocity ( < 15 km/s), little vaporization occurs; no fireball is created, therefore, there is no thermal radiation damage.

    Seismic Effects:
        What does this mean?


        The major seismic shaking will arrive at approximately 100 seconds.
        Richter Scale Magnitude: 8.2
        Mercalli Scale Intensity at a distance of 500 km:

              IV. Felt indoors by many, outdoors by few during the day. At night, some awakened. Dishes, windows, doors disturbed; walls make cracking sound. Sensation like heavy truck striking building. Standing motor cars rocked noticeably.

              V. Felt by nearly everyone; many awakened. Some dishes, windows broken. Unstable objects overturned. Pendulum clocks may stop.


    Ejecta:
        What does this mean?


        The ejecta will arrive approximately 334 seconds after the impact.
        At your position the ejecta arrives in scattered fragments
        Average Ejecta Thickness: 3.03 mm = 0.119 inches
        Mean Fragment Diameter: 1.85 mm = 0.0728 inches


    Air Blast:
        What does this mean?


        The air blast will arrive at approximately 1520 seconds.
        Peak Overpressure: 11300 Pa = 0.113 bars = 1.6 psi
        Max wind velocity: 25.4 m/s = 56.9 mph
        Sound Intensity: 81 dB (Loud as heavy traffic)
        Damage Description:


              Glass windows will shatter.


By comparision, here are results using iron as estimated density:

Quote
Your Inputs:
    Distance from Impact: 500.00 km = 310.50 miles
    Projectile Diameter: 3000.00 m = 9840.00 ft = 1.86 miles
    Projectile Density: 8000 kg/m3
    Impact Velocity: 11.20 km/s = 6.96 miles/s
    Impact Angle: 45 degrees
    Target Density: 2500 kg/m3
    Target Type: Sedimentary Rock

Energy:
    Energy before atmospheric entry: 7.09 x 1021 Joules = 1.69 x 106 MegaTons TNT
    The average interval between impacts of this size somewhere on Earth during the last 4 billion years is 6.9 x 106years

Major Global Changes:
    The Earth is not strongly disturbed by the impact and loses negligible mass.
    The impact does not make a noticeable change in the Earth's rotation period or the tilt of its axis.
    The impact does not shift the Earth's orbit noticeably.

Crater Dimensions:
    What does this mean?


    Transient Crater Diameter: 28.8 km = 17.9 miles
    Transient Crater Depth: 10.2 km = 6.32 miles

    Final Crater Diameter: 44.8 km = 27.8 miles
    Final Crater Depth: 0.929 km = 0.577 miles

    The crater formed is a complex crater.
    At this impact velocity ( < 12 km/s), little shock melting of the target occurs.

    Thermal Radiation:
        What does this mean?


        At this impact velocity ( < 15 km/s), little vaporization occurs; no fireball is created, therefore, there is no thermal radiation damage.

    Seismic Effects:
        What does this mean?


        The major seismic shaking will arrive at approximately 100 seconds.
        Richter Scale Magnitude: 8.8
        Mercalli Scale Intensity at a distance of 500 km:

              VI. Felt by all, many frightened. Some heavy furniture moved; a few instances of fallen plaster. Damage slight.

              VII. Damage negligible in buildings of good design and construction; slight to moderate in well-built ordinary structures; considerable damage in poorly built or badly designed structures; some chimneys broken.


    Ejecta:
        What does this mean?


        The ejecta will arrive approximately 334 seconds after the impact.
        Average Ejecta Thickness: 4.89 cm = 1.92 inches
        Mean Fragment Diameter: 4.15 mm = 0.163 inches


    Air Blast:
        What does this mean?


        The air blast will arrive at approximately 1520 seconds.
        Peak Overpressure: 37000 Pa = 0.37 bars = 5.26 psi
        Max wind velocity: 76 m/s = 170 mph
        Sound Intensity: 91 dB (May cause ear pain)
        Damage Description:


              Wood frame buildings will almost completely collapse.

              Glass windows will shatter.

              Up to 90 percent of trees blown down; remainder stripped of branches and leaves.




In pretty much all cases, damage is limited to radius of a thousand kilometres or so. Even in the case of iron spaceship, which is somewhat implausible but who knows what Shivans build their space ships of...



By the way here's a more interesting question; how much damage did Coruscant suffer when more than half of the Invisible Hand didn't crash on the implausibly well placed runway?

No one even mentions it since it separates from the forward section of the ship. It must've crushed several thousands of beings to death, yet no one even seems to spare a thought to what sort of destruction it would cause. :rolleyes:
« Last Edit: October 17, 2009, 03:50:40 am by Herra Tohtori »
There are three things that last forever: Abort, Retry, Fail - and the greatest of these is Fail.

 

Offline Killer Whale

  • 29
  • Oh no, not again.
Probably landed on another runway. That's a good site. So it would cause quite a lot of point damage but at several hundred kilometres it'll just make a big boom. Thanks. Oh, and how far do shock-waves travel?

 
Well, there is no finite answer, like the answer "how far away does gravity still affect mass"
I think more like your question is "How far until the shockwave is no longer noticable", and the answer is: Won't happen on earth if a Sathanas crashes. Use the calculator and enter as distance 20000km to see how loud the impact would be on the other side of the earth.

 

Offline Colonol Dekker

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It hits modern day london.



What did i ever do to you?  :(
Campaigns I've added my distinctiveness to-
- Blue Planet: Battle Captains
-Battle of Neptune
-Between the Ashes 2
-Blue planet: Age of Aquarius
-FOTG?
-Inferno R1
-Ribos: The aftermath / -Retreat from Deneb
-Sol: A History
-TBP EACW teaser
-Earth Brakiri war
-TBP Fortune Hunters (I think?)
-TBP Relic
-Trancsend (Possibly?)
-Uncharted Territory
-Vassagos Dirge
-War Machine
(Others lost to the mists of time and no discernible audit trail)

Your friendly Orestes tactical controller.

Secret bomb God.
That one time I got permabanned and got to read who was being bitxhy about me :p....
GO GO DEKKER RANGERSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Offline Snail

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Yeah what the hell is with that?

  
Think of it this way: the majority of scientists believe the asteroid that wiped out the dinosaurs was about 11 km in length, and a little more than half that in width. A Sathanas, big though it is, is not nearly as large as that, and it is not a solid object in the idea that there must be large open spaces within. I don't think the impact would be terribly catastrophic, especially since quite a bit of the ship itself would burn up in reentry. Work from there....
I shat all over that Shivan fighter....right up 'till his buddy got me.

 

Offline Snail

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it's also moving slower.

 

Offline Colonol Dekker

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The end scene from Alien Resurrection springs to mind...

But not on London :p
Campaigns I've added my distinctiveness to-
- Blue Planet: Battle Captains
-Battle of Neptune
-Between the Ashes 2
-Blue planet: Age of Aquarius
-FOTG?
-Inferno R1
-Ribos: The aftermath / -Retreat from Deneb
-Sol: A History
-TBP EACW teaser
-Earth Brakiri war
-TBP Fortune Hunters (I think?)
-TBP Relic
-Trancsend (Possibly?)
-Uncharted Territory
-Vassagos Dirge
-War Machine
(Others lost to the mists of time and no discernible audit trail)

Your friendly Orestes tactical controller.

Secret bomb God.
That one time I got permabanned and got to read who was being bitxhy about me :p....
GO GO DEKKER RANGERSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
President of the Scooby Doo Model Appreciation Society
The only good Zod is a dead Zod
NEWGROUNDS COMEDY GOLD, UPDATED DAILY
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Offline swashmebuckle

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It hits modern day london.
What did i ever do to you?  :(
Well destroying New York is something of a cliche at this point.  Besides, building low to the ground with few instantly recognizable monuments can only protect you from Hollywood aliens, not real fake aliens :D

 

Offline Colonol Dekker

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But you could have crashed it in newcastle or brazil or countless other cities...  I wouldn't mind only all my stuff's in London :sigh:
Campaigns I've added my distinctiveness to-
- Blue Planet: Battle Captains
-Battle of Neptune
-Between the Ashes 2
-Blue planet: Age of Aquarius
-FOTG?
-Inferno R1
-Ribos: The aftermath / -Retreat from Deneb
-Sol: A History
-TBP EACW teaser
-Earth Brakiri war
-TBP Fortune Hunters (I think?)
-TBP Relic
-Trancsend (Possibly?)
-Uncharted Territory
-Vassagos Dirge
-War Machine
(Others lost to the mists of time and no discernible audit trail)

Your friendly Orestes tactical controller.

Secret bomb God.
That one time I got permabanned and got to read who was being bitxhy about me :p....
GO GO DEKKER RANGERSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
President of the Scooby Doo Model Appreciation Society
The only good Zod is a dead Zod
NEWGROUNDS COMEDY GOLD, UPDATED DAILY
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A Sathanas juggernaut is in orbit below 1000 km above Earth's surface. It's engines get destroyed in a battle and it begins to turn. The juggernaut loses orbit and begins to plummet to the earth's surface. It hits modern day london. What effect would this have on Earth? It takes several terratonnes of dynamite (applied externally) to destroy and is 6km in length. What would happen where it hit? Would life on the planet be extinguished? Or only in britain. Would every human in europe die? A billion people, a million, a thousand, or one? What would be left of the juggernaut? The four spires render, a smoking ship as seen in wheel a fortune freespace style, or would it be instantly vapourised. Discuss

It would remain largely intact and would be featured in the FS3 opening cutscene.

 

Offline Narvi

  • 28
By the way here's a more interesting question; how much damage did Coruscant suffer when more than half of the Invisible Hand didn't crash on the implausibly well placed runway?

No one even mentions it since it separates from the forward section of the ship. It must've crushed several thousands of beings to death, yet no one even seems to spare a thought to what sort of destruction it would cause. :rolleyes:

What a weird thing to complain about.  Dude, there were several thousand other ships of comparable mass in orbit and shooting at each other. Coruscant probably got horrifically damaged by hundreds of wrecked destroyers.

I doubt that Coruscant really noticed the half of the Invisible Hand that fell off, in the grand scale of things.

 

Offline Kiloku

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But you could have crashed it in newcastle or brazil or countless other cities...  I wouldn't mind only all my stuff's in London :sigh:
What did I ever do to you?!
Potato!

 

Offline Colonol Dekker

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Beat us in numerous world cups :p



It would remain largely intact and would be featured in the FS3 opening cutscene.

This one?

Campaigns I've added my distinctiveness to-
- Blue Planet: Battle Captains
-Battle of Neptune
-Between the Ashes 2
-Blue planet: Age of Aquarius
-FOTG?
-Inferno R1
-Ribos: The aftermath / -Retreat from Deneb
-Sol: A History
-TBP EACW teaser
-Earth Brakiri war
-TBP Fortune Hunters (I think?)
-TBP Relic
-Trancsend (Possibly?)
-Uncharted Territory
-Vassagos Dirge
-War Machine
(Others lost to the mists of time and no discernible audit trail)

Your friendly Orestes tactical controller.

Secret bomb God.
That one time I got permabanned and got to read who was being bitxhy about me :p....
GO GO DEKKER RANGERSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
President of the Scooby Doo Model Appreciation Society
The only good Zod is a dead Zod
NEWGROUNDS COMEDY GOLD, UPDATED DAILY
http://badges.steamprofile.com/profile/default/steam/76561198011784807.png