Author Topic: We suck  (Read 7328 times)

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Offline StarSlayer

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That's true, and like I mentioned with SAS and SEALs our collective knowledge in the needed skills to survive is much higher then it would be for a Neanderthal.  The formalized fighting systems we have developed for hand to hand combat and melee would negate the speed and strength advantages of a Cave Man.  But the actual percentage of the population trained and ready to implement that is relatively small.  Sure I could go online or read a book to learn how to do Blacksmith work but I'm not going to be a skilled as a trained blacksmith, and if I haven't studied up on it first I will have zippo chance of figuring it out myself even with my more powerful brain.  Most of the technology we take for granted took decades and centuries to perfect.
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Offline Herra Tohtori

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On the other hand do you know how to domesticate a horse? I don't, and thats true with a large portion of our skills and technology.  As a society we may have high technology and skills but individual knowledge of how to implement it?

A lot would depend on the timeframe you would be dropped to...

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If you were shipped back to medieval times do you think you could replicate a toaster/firearm/ICE/etc?  Throw on top of that the fact that most people don't know basic survival skills then a lot of that vaunted education and knowledge becomes rather small consolation.  


Medieval times? Not too bad. There would be steel available for building stuff from, you would just need the help of a blacksmith to either teach you to do it yourself or do the work for you. Building a steam turbine would not be too difficult; the biggest problem I can foresee is making accurate axles and bearings and keeping the parts in balance to reduce vibrations, and that wouldn't be insurmountably difficult; a metalworking lathe would be required to construct axles and bearing cylinders, but it could be done.

Copper wire could be coated in wax of some kind, barring better alternatives. How to actually make copper wire, you could make a wire pulling device, it's not that complex.

Strong magnets for the generator might actually be the hardest to come by. However, any ferromagnetic material - iron comes to mind first and foremost - would do, as long as you would have a method of magnetizing it. Magnetizing could be done by a direct current electromagnet, and before you say that you wouldn't have current without a generator, I remind you that you can make pretty strong batteries out of something like copper and lead, which were both available in medieval times. Zinc would be better (and less poisonous) than lead, but I dunno how I would come by that in medieval times... Just get enough of copper wire, copper and lead plates, water and something to ionize the water (salt would do) and you get an electric pair that produces direct current. Put a bunch of these in parallel and you can produce pretty high currents, and if you put them in series you can pump the voltages quite high too. You could use that to make strong permanent magnets for the generator.

Gunpowder would not be too hard to make either. Although I would probably want to skip the black gunpowder altogether and go directly to cordite (nitrocellulose and nitroglycerine wouldn't be that much more difficult to manufacture than black gunpowder) and rounds that consist of a shell, round and detonator... none of that muzzle loading garbage.  :ick: Again, in medieval times this would not be too hard to do if you could get some connections to aquire the raw materials - in this case, an alchemist and the ever helpful blacksmith.


But yes, I would require assistance from locals to achieve this; however I would know roughly how to do it.

...as a terrifying afterthought, the AK-47 machinery isn't that complicated. Requires a bit of precision tools, yeah. But it could be done. Not immediately of course, it would take years to develope the machinery and equipment to work metals and produce alloys and such, but it could be done. Within, say, 10-15 years of co-operation with an experienced blacksmith we could improve metallurgy to the level where production of Kalashnikov assault rifles would be possible. :shaking:

Even on bronze age, some of this stuff would be possible. Steam turbine would be less durable and would thus produce less power due to lower rpm's, and bronze in general isn't as good material for stuff like this as steel is, but it would still be doable. Hell, ancient Greeks built a primitive steam turbine, they just didn't think of attaching an axle to it to generate power, and considered it more of a toy despite the fact that it demonstrated the principles of thermodynamics as well as reaction principle.

However, dropped back 20000 years ago and things become significantly harder. You could use some basic mechanical knowledge to build simple machines such as pulleys - a compound bow would be possible to make, but you would again need help from a person experienced in making bows as well as someone experienced with carving wood or bone.


It's a nice thing to ponder though; would you be able to start an industrial revolution at year X?

Moreover, should you? :nervous:
There are three things that last forever: Abort, Retry, Fail - and the greatest of these is Fail.

 

Offline Flipside

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It's a question of relatives as well, if you have compound bows, and the other guy has little horse-bows or the like, then you are going to be killing him before he gets in range, so you need to develop a better bow.

In many ways, humanity is unique, because, unlike most creatures, which are involved in a passive war, predator vs prey, humans have got most of their drive to advance from human vs human contact, that, on a regular basis, is unknown in the rest of the animal kingdom, it became no longer a question of being stronger or faster than the other tribes, it became a question of being smarter than them, and that was another part of the generator that pushed us upwards :)

 

Offline Kosh

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Quote
It's a nice thing to ponder though; would you be able to start an industrial revolution at year X?

It is questionable they would have let you, more likely you would have been accused of being a witch/warlock for using black magic. And no I'm not being sarcastic or anything.

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Moreover, should you?

Nothing would have changed, just the timetable would have been bumped up rather considerably. The Spanish for example were off pillaging the new world and enslaving people without the help of an industrial base. Maybe world war one wouldn't be against the central powers, but a massive industrial conflict on that scale was bound to happen. We would likely be at a much higher level of development now if it had occured way back when.
"The reason for this is that the original Fortran got so convoluted and extensive (10's of millions of lines of code) that no-one can actually figure out how it works, there's a massive project going on to decode the original Fortran and write a more modern system, but until then, the UK communication network is actually relying heavily on 35 year old Fortran that nobody understands." - Flipside

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Offline Fury

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We would likely be at a much higher level of development now if it had occured way back when.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Ages
maybe, maybe not :)

 

Offline Mika

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It's a question of relatives as well, if you have compound bows, and the other guy has little horse-bows or the like, then you are going to be killing him before he gets in range, so you need to develop a better bow.

I thought Mongols were the opposite of this. I think what actually matters is again how smart you are.

Vikings were able to pull out quite mighty aspherical lens surfaces back then. Nobody knows how they managed to manufacture those. Then came something and the whole thing was forgotten for about thousand years...
Relaxed movement is always more effective than forced movement.

 

Offline Colonol Dekker

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My view on the subject I hear you screaming at your monitors? (Regardless I know this to be a fact :p)
 
 
There's a bit of dilution over the last few centuries (not racial, not a debate I want to get into either) but rather a question of Darwinus interruptus. . Medical science, shelter and general civil evolution have stemmed the tide of natural selection. How many of you have seen at school or at work the fat Kid who'd pass out climbing two flights of stairs let alone hunting down a buffalo after tracking them on foot for a week. Or the idiot chav asbo who a few thousand years back would have died trying to figure out why the human remains outside a bear cave were there. .
 
My points not that we're on the decline physically, just that there are too many wasters out there to notice. Anyone who has seen Idiocracy will know where this is headed. ;) 
Campaigns I've added my distinctiveness to-
- Blue Planet: Battle Captains
-Battle of Neptune
-Between the Ashes 2
-Blue planet: Age of Aquarius
-FOTG?
-Inferno R1
-Ribos: The aftermath / -Retreat from Deneb
-Sol: A History
-TBP EACW teaser
-Earth Brakiri war
-TBP Fortune Hunters (I think?)
-TBP Relic
-Trancsend (Possibly?)
-Uncharted Territory
-Vassagos Dirge
-War Machine
(Others lost to the mists of time and no discernible audit trail)

Your friendly Orestes tactical controller.

Secret bomb God.
That one time I got permabanned and got to read who was being bitxhy about me :p....
GO GO DEKKER RANGERSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Offline StarSlayer

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My view on the subject I hear you screaming at your monitors? (Regardless I know this to be a fact :p)
 
 
There's a bit of dilution over the last few centuries (not racial, not a debate I want to get into either) but rather a question of Darwinus interruptus. . Medical science, shelter and general civil evolution have stemmed the tide of natural selection. How many of you have seen at school or at work the fat Kid who'd pass out climbing two flights of stairs let alone hunting down a buffalo after tracking them on foot for a week. Or the idiot chav asbo who a few thousand years back would have died trying to figure out why the human remains outside a bear cave were there. .
 
My points not that we're on the decline physically, just that there are too many wasters out there to notice. Anyone who has seen Idiocracy will know where this is headed. ;) 

The smart people need to breed like rabbits :D

It is funny I remember looking at some photos of the workers from the Empire State building being built.  There was a I-beam full of guys eating lunch and every one of them was hard as nails.  If I sat at North Station during rush hour I think I would be hard pressed to find that many guys in that good of shape nowadays.  Service based white collar economy a fit society does not make.
“Think lightly of yourself and deeply of the world”

  

Offline Colonol Dekker

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The smart people need to breed like rabbits :D

Not quite, for instance the FAt unhealthy guy could be sharp as a diamond tack, but i doubt he could contribute to physical labour, and to b honest.. Fat people have fat kids whether it's genetic or not. Lifestyle is hereditary too...
Campaigns I've added my distinctiveness to-
- Blue Planet: Battle Captains
-Battle of Neptune
-Between the Ashes 2
-Blue planet: Age of Aquarius
-FOTG?
-Inferno R1
-Ribos: The aftermath / -Retreat from Deneb
-Sol: A History
-TBP EACW teaser
-Earth Brakiri war
-TBP Fortune Hunters (I think?)
-TBP Relic
-Trancsend (Possibly?)
-Uncharted Territory
-Vassagos Dirge
-War Machine
(Others lost to the mists of time and no discernible audit trail)

Your friendly Orestes tactical controller.

Secret bomb God.
That one time I got permabanned and got to read who was being bitxhy about me :p....
GO GO DEKKER RANGERSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
President of the Scooby Doo Model Appreciation Society
The only good Zod is a dead Zod
NEWGROUNDS COMEDY GOLD, UPDATED DAILY
http://badges.steamprofile.com/profile/default/steam/76561198011784807.png

 

Offline Flipside

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But then, that, too, is a kind of Natural Selection, once upon a time, power was based on your ability to hit things with big sticks, nowadays, we have advanced to the point where power is based on being smart enough to be able to afford to pay other people to hit things with big sticks.

The real trick is removing the Big Stick from the equation.

 

Offline Colonol Dekker

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Once the people with the sticks realise they can hit the smart people and take the money. . . . . That's when funtime starts.
 
Remember its easier for a smart person to motivate themselves into getting fit than getting a thicko strongman to learn smarts.
Campaigns I've added my distinctiveness to-
- Blue Planet: Battle Captains
-Battle of Neptune
-Between the Ashes 2
-Blue planet: Age of Aquarius
-FOTG?
-Inferno R1
-Ribos: The aftermath / -Retreat from Deneb
-Sol: A History
-TBP EACW teaser
-Earth Brakiri war
-TBP Fortune Hunters (I think?)
-TBP Relic
-Trancsend (Possibly?)
-Uncharted Territory
-Vassagos Dirge
-War Machine
(Others lost to the mists of time and no discernible audit trail)

Your friendly Orestes tactical controller.

Secret bomb God.
That one time I got permabanned and got to read who was being bitxhy about me :p....
GO GO DEKKER RANGERSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
President of the Scooby Doo Model Appreciation Society
The only good Zod is a dead Zod
NEWGROUNDS COMEDY GOLD, UPDATED DAILY
http://badges.steamprofile.com/profile/default/steam/76561198011784807.png

 

Offline StarSlayer

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Besides brute strength a good sworsdman does not make.  In unarmored you don't need much strength to hew through flesh and bone and in armored combat all the power you can muster will not cut through plate, thats what  Halbschwert is for.  Steel is a pretty big equalizer, on the other hand strength does help when you close into wrestling range.
“Think lightly of yourself and deeply of the world”

 

Offline Flipside

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In fact, it could be said that, we gained Dexterity points at the cost of Strength, always a risk with multi-classing ;)

Seriously though, obesity has only really been a very recent problem, I wouldn't be too quick to include it into any Darwinian theories just yet, though it would be interesting to measure how much evolution has sacrificed with regards to our physique to our mentality.

There are two schools of thought on the matter as I understand it, some say that Prehistoric man could have come up with the laws of physics, if he had the scientific grounding that Newton did, others say that they could never have got that far, that their brains would never have been able to codify the concepts involved. In truth, it's kind of a thought-experiment, since there's no real way of knowing.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2009, 05:47:31 pm by Flipside »

 

Offline General Battuta

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Neanderthals were a fork species, not technically prehistoric man.

 

Offline Flipside

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Another double school of thought on that one ;) There's a small, but growing schism that suggests we interbred, so, strictly speaking, neither Homo-Erectus, nor Neanderthals were our direct descendent, we were a product of the two.

Edit: That said, I'll clean up the post, because I use them too interchangeably in it :)

 

Offline General Battuta

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That's probably true, I've read those papers.

 

Offline Kosh

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The smart people need to breed like rabbits :D

Not quite, for instance the FAt unhealthy guy could be sharp as a diamond tack, but i doubt he could contribute to physical labour, and to b honest.. Fat people have fat kids whether it's genetic or not. Lifestyle is hereditary too...


He can build machines to do the physical labor for him. Problem solved.
"The reason for this is that the original Fortran got so convoluted and extensive (10's of millions of lines of code) that no-one can actually figure out how it works, there's a massive project going on to decode the original Fortran and write a more modern system, but until then, the UK communication network is actually relying heavily on 35 year old Fortran that nobody understands." - Flipside

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Offline StarSlayer

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Like this one:


:P
“Think lightly of yourself and deeply of the world”

 

Offline Colonol Dekker

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Not if he's lost the ability to fabricate production methods. Or even lift a hammer, move raw materials, shift a four hundred kilo palette etc. Strength is necessary to build.
Campaigns I've added my distinctiveness to-
- Blue Planet: Battle Captains
-Battle of Neptune
-Between the Ashes 2
-Blue planet: Age of Aquarius
-FOTG?
-Inferno R1
-Ribos: The aftermath / -Retreat from Deneb
-Sol: A History
-TBP EACW teaser
-Earth Brakiri war
-TBP Fortune Hunters (I think?)
-TBP Relic
-Trancsend (Possibly?)
-Uncharted Territory
-Vassagos Dirge
-War Machine
(Others lost to the mists of time and no discernible audit trail)

Your friendly Orestes tactical controller.

Secret bomb God.
That one time I got permabanned and got to read who was being bitxhy about me :p....
GO GO DEKKER RANGERSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
President of the Scooby Doo Model Appreciation Society
The only good Zod is a dead Zod
NEWGROUNDS COMEDY GOLD, UPDATED DAILY
http://badges.steamprofile.com/profile/default/steam/76561198011784807.png

 

Offline TrashMan

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It's a nice thing to ponder though; would you be able to start an industrial revolution at year X?

Moreover, should you? :nervous:

YES.... I don't belive in a single timline time travel:p
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