Author Topic: 3000AD are asking for input regarding an MMO  (Read 20646 times)

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Offline General Battuta

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Re: 3000AD are asking for input regarding an MMO
There's nothing wrong with more choice for players.

Out of curiosity, have you played any of the user-made FreeSpace mods? Beyond the Red Line, maybe?

Hey, everybody, let's keep this thread civil, okay? I will probably moderate the heck out of this if it gets nasty.

 

Offline Snail

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Re: 3000AD are asking for input regarding an MMO
This entire thing actually sounds quite promising. Looking forward to see how this turns out. Good luck, sir. :cool:

 
Re: 3000AD are asking for input regarding an MMO
Manual control is only valid if it plays some kind of role. There's a very good reason EVE doesn't have it: it wouldn't matter. All ships have a 360 field of fire on all their guns/launchers/mining tools. Orbiting the target is, admittedly, still kind of crappy (ask anyone who's run into asteroids via the auto-orbit feature when it didn't have to take that particular plane) but that, manual and fairly simple even with EVE's interface slashing passes, and holding a range are basically the only manuvers of any meaningful value when your only restrictions on engagement are range and turrets' ability to track the target's relative motion.

BC/UC didn't really feature it for your capitals for the same reason.

Rubbish.  Each game's mechanics are designed specifically for the game. If you don't understand them, don't talk about them.

Eve's mechanics work within the framework of their game. It is not a twitch based game. In BC/UC the mechanics are quite different and NONE of what you posted above bares any relevence - nor makes any sense. You clearly haven't played ANY of my games - but I'm sure you wished you had.

To the rest of you, go and download the FULL freeware version of Universal Combat and go from there. And if you want to see how my twitch based combat shooter works, download the Echo Squad SE demo.

Quote
EDIT: Jesus christ on a ****stick. For those interested in Derek's overall history, I recommend Flame War Follies.

..here we go. And the relevance to this thread is what exactly?
President/Lead Developer
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Offline watsisname

Re: 3000AD are asking for input regarding an MMO
Derek Smart's posting again?  Aw snap.

Quote
Personally, I'd love something like Combat Orbiter with a wide range of airplanes for atmospheric flight and as required, seamless transition to orbital combat as well.

Then I consider the ridiculous difficulty level it would pose for most people (who would think that the best way to reach a target ahead of your orbit would be to slow down, which moves you to lower and therefore faster orbit and lets you catch up to the target) and I realize no one will ever make that sort of game commercially.

That would indeed be cool to see!  Personally I'd like to have the mechanics used in Orbiter, but make everything a bit "faster" so to speak, ie, a faster rate of rotation and translational movement, or maybe even a faster rate of orbital movement overall, so that one orbit at LEO would take maybe 9 minutes instead of 90.  Probably would be just as difficult to make it feasible and fun for gameplay but worth trying out I'd think.  Just my two cents, anyway. :)
« Last Edit: October 29, 2009, 06:12:28 pm by watsisname »
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Re: 3000AD are asking for input regarding an MMO
However, if the game engine could run this kind of environment seamlessly in MMO gameplay, then it gets interesting as it would be possible to have atmospheric combat missions, orbital combat, ground attacks and capital ship engagements on orbit at the same time. It would require a lot of management from teams to do effectively, and it would also require a lot of dedicated players, but it would be pretty awesome if done right.

...and here's the thing. I ALREADY have that technology. And it works. Has always worked. And continues to work.

In my games, you don't have to be in orbit or deal with any of the hassles that makes it hard to play. You see a planet, you can dogfight and fly around its orbit all day long and NEVER enter the planet by accident. In order to do that, you have to target the planet and press a key to initiate a planetfall transition. When that starts, the engine switches to an external camera - you enter the planet. Land. Get out of your craft in first person mode.

In GCO, all of that will remain in-tact - but the goal is to make the game a bit more accessible than BC/UC games, without alienating the fans I have worldwide who a) like it just the way it is b) learned the hard way - but took the time to learn it.

Hence the reasons we're reaching out to ALL space combat fans so that within the next year of the game's development, I can come up with a middle ground for everyone who likes these games. And over the years, we can continue building on it. Thats why the game will have both a F2P model and a subscription model because I am building it for ALL space combat fans everywhere. You guys don't have to like me (and I don't care - never did). Its not about me and even if it was, you'd still be wasting your time because I simply won't care either way because you'd still not like me but still playing my game without admiting it to anyone. I win.

Out of curiosity, have you played any of the user-made FreeSpace mods? Beyond the Red Line, maybe?

Yep. I've played ALL of them. I'm a space sim nut, remember? I was even looking to hire in some of the guys from those mods, but given the reception I got from years ago over the FS3 debacle, I said screw it and didn't.


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Offline General Battuta

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Re: 3000AD are asking for input regarding an MMO
Did you have any favorites?  :nervous:

(not that I'm looking to be hired now, mind, but I am a huge fanboi of a few campaigns)

 

Offline Aardwolf

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Re: 3000AD are asking for input regarding an MMO
Did you have any favorites?  :nervous:

(not that I'm looking to be hired now, mind, but I am a huge fanboi of a few campaigns)

Oh, hush.

In before lock

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: 3000AD are asking for input regarding an MMO
I was actually thinking of Transcend and some stuff from The Babylon Project.  :p

 

Offline Snail

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Re: 3000AD are asking for input regarding an MMO
Wow, Derek plays FreeSpace mods? Cool.

 
Re: 3000AD are asking for input regarding an MMO
Wow, Derek plays FreeSpace mods? Cool.

Yep. Apart from being an avid game collector, I have played EVERY SINGLE space combat game there is. ALL of them. Mods and all. I played more of the FS mods because of course I was looking to see how best to approach FS3 if I did obtain the license.

And yes, I do have favorites, but I'd rather not say because that would be ill-advised. :)

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3000AD, Inc

 

Offline Flipside

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Re: 3000AD are asking for input regarding an MMO
Welcome back to HLP Mr Smart.

As for the 'name calling', we will agree to differ on that respect, since I remember a certain comment about 'girly men' before a single HLP commenter had posted, but still, that is in the past, I agree, so I'll let it lie.

As I said before, I think BC3000AD would work quite well as an MMO, it allows the universe to flourish without having to be pushed along, which leaves a lot more room for the real fun stuff server-side.

I was an Eve player, but I quit, because the game was dividing too heavily into 'haves' and 'have-nots', there were too many in-crowds, and no chance to simply wander around and experience the game universe in general, the hard part of any MMO, I suppose, is catering to the vast spread of playing types there are out there, some people prefer non PvP games, where they can sight-see, others prefer one on one combat, personally, I'm not a big fan of unsolicited PvP, something Eve was absolutely rife with, I think, to be honest, CCP got too obsessed with it being a community and not obsessed enough with it being a game. That's my experiences/thoughts on Space-based MMO's anyway.

 

Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: 3000AD are asking for input regarding an MMO
<snip>

...and here's the thing. I ALREADY have that technology. And it works. Has always worked. And continues to work.

In my games, you don't have to be in orbit or deal with any of the hassles that makes it hard to play. You see a planet, you can dogfight and fly around its orbit all day long and NEVER enter the planet by accident. In order to do that, you have to target the planet and press a key to initiate a planetfall transition. When that starts, the engine switches to an external camera - you enter the planet. Land. Get out of your craft in first person mode.


Ah, but part of the appeal (to me) would be that you COULD, if you so wanted, move from space combat area of engagement to atmospheric flight, or land, or disembark your vehicle, all continuously without activating a planetfall cutscene or anything like that. And also if you were not careful, you could end up burning in the atmosphere if you overstressed your craft... or if you dropped too low in a space craft not qualified for atmospheric entries. It would be largely non-issue if the player started at 36000 km altitude at geosynchronous orbit; for all intents and purposes, orbital mechanics wouldn't really disrupt combat there.

It would also introduce some pretty interesting dynamics to the space combat, since you could then have spacecraft that are capable of only spaceflight but be more optimized for space combat (lack of wings and other accessories required of airplanes reduces weight), vehicles capable of both atmospheric and space flight, and airplanes that would only operate on the atmosphere.

The way I see it, space combat would be concentrated on a very small areas - mainly, stations on geosynchronous orbits and Lagrangian points in the system. Players interested mainly in space combat would be deployed on these areas, however it would be possible for them to traverse to the planet's surface if they so wanted. Similarly, people interested in atmospheric flight combat would be spawned either on air starts or airfields depending on the mission, but if some hardcore player really wanted, he could pick an space flight qualified airplane, get into orbit and attack the enemy capital ship on low orbit. Or a flight of ground attack craft could undock from that low orbit capital ship, descend to the atmosphere and commence a ground attack. Being deployed on the immediate vicinity of action would make the game accessible to people who aren't intersted in long sessions of simple transition from place A to place B, but continous game world would make that possible too.

...or you could have orbital drop shock troopers (with another name to avoid trademark conflicts  :p) seamlessly deployed from low orbit to surface. Or you could have a transport pilot delivering a Marine squad on a space station, or other endless options.

Myself, I would prefer to fly single pilot craft in either atmospheric or spaceborne ship-to-ship combat, but the option where you would be able to gather my survival kit after crash landing on enemy territory, and try to avoid capture is sort of interesting too.

Regarding form of combat, I'm sort of torn. I personally greatly prefer visual range gun combat (aka dogfighting) to BVR missile fights, but on the other hand it might be implausible to exclude missiles altogether. Perhaps making them a commodity might work best; that way you could both make them plausibly destructive and explain why there aren't too many of them.

...and although visual range swarm missiles are visually stunning, I don't think I would want to deal with a Macross Missile Massacre being unleashed on me... :nervous:
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Offline Flipside

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Re: 3000AD are asking for input regarding an MMO
People have to remember there is a very big trade-off involved with First Person perspective from an MMO point of view, because a heck of a lot more data needs to be passed around about projectiles, angles etc, that's why most MMO's work a 'dice-roll' system.

If you think a stand alone server has trouble keeping track of the lasers shots from a single Multiplayer game, wait until you try keeping track of the shots from a hundred skirmishes across the universe. I think you'd have to do something like turn local combat into a 'mini-multiplayer' game, and that might cause problems with ships moving locally, arriving on the scene etc, because the current state would have to be transferred to those ships as well from the combatants.

  

Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: 3000AD are asking for input regarding an MMO
Yes, and that's not even the smallest of problems in a real-sized, continuous planet/solar system sized environment. To look good, the planet would need some serious model detail, and that alone would be... significantly large amount of data. :nervous: The Earth looks like crap in Orbiter when you get down from the orbit...

Realities bite. :p I suppose we need a couple more years until we can simulate an universe in our universe so we can fight wars while living in peace...
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Offline Ghostavo

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Re: 3000AD are asking for input regarding an MMO
Make Resnig an NPC and make it possible to kill him in the most visceral way imaginable. I recommend some sort of cinematic when you throw him out of the airlock while orbiting Jupiter.

Anyway, my advices would be to:

- Make the interface follow the industry's standards. Last time I played BCMG I remember the FPS part having some unusual key configuration.
- Storywise, I'm not sure if it was resolved, but some info on the crashed probe (who launched it? what was it doing?) would be nice.
- Make it possible to invade other ships. In BCMG and UC you could never invade other ships, but you were always the one being boarded. I think this was done because of some technical difficulty but it's kind of jarring.


The BC universe always fitted an MMO better than a single-player game as someone already pointed out.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2009, 10:13:32 pm by Ghostavo »
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Offline watsisname

Re: 3000AD are asking for input regarding an MMO
Yes, and that's not even the smallest of problems in a real-sized, continuous planet/solar system sized environment. To look good, the planet would need some serious model detail, and that alone would be... significantly large amount of data. :nervous: The Earth looks like crap in Orbiter when you get down from the orbit...

Realities bite. :p I suppose we need a couple more years until we can simulate an universe in our universe so we can fight wars while living in peace...

Well, we can get around that problem (sort of) with procedural environments like what Infinity is trying to do.  Speaking of which they seem to be going for a pseudo-netwonian gameplay mechanic as well, though I doubt the orbital mechanics are very good, if present at all.
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Offline Flipside

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Re: 3000AD are asking for input regarding an MMO
Yup, they can all be done, of that I'm certain, if there's one thing I don't think about Derek Smart, it's that he would be considering the concept if he didn't feel it was possible, and I wish him luck with it, but I will admit to being interested in how the first-person hurdle would be overcome, as I mentioned earlier, the way that occurs to me is creating a 'mini' multiplayer game that works peer-peer between the ships involved, if you could keep most combat outside the main traffic zones, that would ease a lot of weight on the servers.

 

Offline Colonol Dekker

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Re: 3000AD are asking for input regarding an MMO
Gah. . .  Visual quality is a must-have. If it doesn't look pretty in this day and age i'm not interested. Elite and Frontier had an excuse.
I like a game like X3 to be honest. Use that as a model.
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Offline TrashMan

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Re: 3000AD are asking for input regarding an MMO
Welecome back Mr. Smart.
Let's try to put the flames of old where they belong - in the past - and start fresh. We got off on the wrong foot last time and I truly hope we can all have a nice and civil chat. So no flame baits everyone!
Now, with that out of the way...

Mr. Smart, I'd advise you to look into the Infinity: Quest for Earth forums. They have a whole lot of good sugegstions on their board and will probably be your competition in a sense. And competition is healthy ;)

My advice is to adjust the controls to the craft. Fighters are twich-based and should handle and be controled like that. Large capital ships are about planning and strategy. So as you move from smaller to bigger ships, the controls and mechanics move ever more from twich-based to point-and-click strategic.

What else? A certain level of modularity between ships, but not too much. Infity is going for a non-specialization principle and it's a good thing - up to a point. But if the difference between a military battelship hull and a freighter hull is miniscue, then what's the point of having different categories?

A good selection of weapons and defenses. No levels. No grinding. Let simple logic guide the universe. No traders flying state-of-the-art military warships. What kind of a retarded military would sell you one anyway? If you want it, you have to be a trusted and distinguished memer of the military. Otherwise, go buy civilian hulls/ships.

I made quite a lof of suggestions on the Infintiy boards. May be simpler to just try to find them and copy-paste. Or if you go and read the boards there I won't need to bother. ;)
« Last Edit: October 30, 2009, 05:11:08 am by TrashMan »
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Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: 3000AD are asking for input regarding an MMO
Yes, and that's not even the smallest of problems in a real-sized, continuous planet/solar system sized environment. To look good, the planet would need some serious model detail, and that alone would be... significantly large amount of data. :nervous: The Earth looks like crap in Orbiter when you get down from the orbit...

Realities bite. :p I suppose we need a couple more years until we can simulate an universe in our universe so we can fight wars while living in peace...

Well, we can get around that problem (sort of) with procedural environments like what Infinity is trying to do.  Speaking of which they seem to be going for a pseudo-netwonian gameplay mechanic as well, though I doubt the orbital mechanics are very good, if present at all.


Yes, but when the environment gets big enough, the amount of data that the client side computers is needed to recreate from given random seeds (essentially compressed format) of the game world, the loading times and hardware requirements shoot up sky high (pun absolutely intended). Procedural terrain data that uses a material system for different surface types would be the only sensible solution, but even then the sheer size of the thing would be... troublesome. The accuracy of the terrain needs to be the same for everyone so that collision detection with terrain works the same for everyone, so that means either everyone is required to use the same level of terrain detail (bad idea if you plan on making the game available for a variety of hardware specs, unless you plan on limiting the level of detail on the level that can be run with minimum hardware requirements) or you need some very intelligently designed LOD system that would decrease the surface model detail on long distance while keeping the detail constant at the immediate vicinity of the player.

Infinity is sort of close to what I have in mind... but I'm not having high hopes of it being finished in any reasonable time frame. :blah: Hopefully, they prove me wrong.
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