Author Topic: Feature creep, release dates, etc.  (Read 7060 times)

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Offline General Battuta

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Feature creep, release dates, etc.
FOR ****'S SAKE, SCREW THE HTL SHIPS AND RELEASE THE DAMN THING!

I don't give a crap about models and neither should anybody else. You can always patch them in later. We've been waiting for this thing for years!

 

Offline Stormkeeper

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Feature creep, release dates, etc.
The General now sounds like a certain FS2Freak.
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Offline General Battuta

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Feature creep, release dates, etc.
No I don't. I sound like somebody who has watched at least two major mods essentially achieve completion and then delay release for these ****ing HTL models!

 

Offline The E

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Feature creep, release dates, etc.
Agreed. A good story and good gameplay can cover up dated models quite well.
If I'm just aching this can't go on
I came from chasing dreams to feel alone
There must be changes, miss to feel strong
I really need lifе to touch me
--Evergrey, Where August Mourns

 

Offline General Battuta

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Feature creep, release dates, etc.
Three, actually. BWO, 158th and Machina Terra all had people come forward to say 'it was nearly done, and then we decided to HTL our assets'.

It's just madness. As The_E said, I will happily play a mod with Inferno R1-quality ships if it has a good story!

 

Offline Sushi

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Feature creep, release dates, etc.
FOR ****'S SAKE, SCREW THE HTL SHIPS AND RELEASE THE DAMN THING!

I don't give a crap about models and neither should anybody else. You can always patch them in later. We've been waiting for this thing for years!

Seconded, thirded, and fourthed.


 

Offline Droid803

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Feature creep, release dates, etc.
FOR ****'S SAKE, SCREW THE HTL SHIPS AND RELEASE THE DAMN THING!

I don't give a crap about models and neither should anybody else. You can always patch them in later. We've been waiting for this thing for years!

Seconded, thirded, and fourthed.



THIS.

Even though I'm somewhat of a qualityfag, GOD DAMN IT IF IT'S DONE RELEASE IT.
(´・ω・`)
=============================================================

 

Offline Mongoose

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Feature creep, release dates, etc.
I understand that sentiment, but if the team already has modelers rolling along on what needs to be done, then they're not just going to put those efforts on-hold and throw something together for public consumption.  If you guys absolutely hold yourselves to that Christmas demo, I'm perfectly willing to wait for the final release. :)

 

Offline Goober5000

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Feature creep, release dates, etc.
Three, actually. BWO, 158th and Machina Terra all had people come forward to say 'it was nearly done, and then we decided to HTL our assets'.

It's just madness. As The_E said, I will happily play a mod with Inferno R1-quality ships if it has a good story!
This.  Eighthed, or whatever we're on.  And ironically, you can add Inferno to that list.

 

Offline Stormkeeper

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I think it's probably true about most mods in development during the time of the SCP's own development cycle. Of course you would naturally like new features, so naturally you'd try to add them in. And it gets more and more tedious and people lose intrest.

True, RL might take some people out of the projects as well, and numerous other reasons, feature creep is without a doubt the biggest cause of projects stopping, and is also the one thing that you can never really put away because you don't really see it coming till its too late. In a way, feature creep is also good; its a sign that the project members want the best for their fans.

You might argue then that this isn't the case currently. That's because, as far as I can tell, the cycle of the SCP has levelled out, with no major features introduced recently, and most of the big, shiny stuff already well integrated into the code base. We'll see feature creep here and there, no doubt, but I'm sure that the current generation of project heads are far more level-headed to say 'Okay, enough features, we're stopping there.'

I would also like for MT to be released sans HTL models since its complete, in a sense. But much like ST:R's voice acting, the HTL may not be necessary, but it will definitely make for a nicer and more memorable playthrough. And whilst HTL-ing the models, the MT team has time to fine tune the script, missions and countless other items.

Shadow promised a demo around Christmas; be patient and wait for it. The way some of you are demanding he release the project now is awfully reminescent, in a way, of FS2Freak88's post demanding updates from the ST:R team.

Also, this is an interview thread, and any posts are meant to ask questions about the subject matter, not to demand the release of MT. I'll keep it open for now. If you want to request the release of MT, do it on their board.
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Offline General Battuta

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Feature creep, release dates, etc.
I think that discussing the operational and managerial details of campaigns in progress is a fine topic for this thread.

And this is rather different from FS2Freak88's behavior because it's not a demand from a fan to release now for his amusement, it's a plea from other devs to stop committing a systematic pitfall in campaign development.

 

Offline ShadowGorrath

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Feature creep, release dates, etc.
I think that discussing the operational and managerial details of campaigns in progress is a fine topic for this thread.

And this is rather different from FS2Freak88's behavior because it's not a demand from a fan to release now for his amusement, it's a plea from other devs to stop committing a systematic pitfall in campaign development.

It's still not on topic.

Besides, are you people absolutely sure that it's only the models that are holding MT from release? For all we know, they might need to work till Christmas to get MT released anyway, with or without the HTL models.

And admit it, the promised release isn't far away. So just quit whining about the models and be happy that they're capable of having a release this soon :P

 

Offline General Battuta

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Feature creep, release dates, etc.
Nobody's demanding Immediate Release Before Christmas. We're all just raging about the tendency to hold up a release for HTL assets - which is a valid, vital, and very important point. It is also completely on topic (and You Are Not A Moderator.)

Quote
Besides, are you people absolutely sure that it's only the models that are holding MT from release? For all we know, they might need to work till Christmas to get MT released anyway, with or without the HTL models.

I have absolutely no doubt of that. Releasing a mod requires a ton of work - as should be obvious since these remarks are coming from devs.

Quote
And admit it, the promised release isn't far away. So just quit whining about the models and be happy that they're capable of having a release this soon

Read the thread. We're addressing a broader point about several mods.

 

Offline Goober5000

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Re: Feature creep, release dates, etc.
I split and moved the thread, because although it's a valid topic for discussion it has a broader scope than just Machina Terra.  (And I don't want to pick on them specifically. :))
« Last Edit: November 02, 2009, 01:24:22 pm by Goober5000 »

 

Offline Snail

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Re: Feature creep, release dates, etc.
Err... Machina Terra needs more than just models. It's a misconception that only models need to be done. There is a lot of stuff that needs doing.



But I agree. Trying to make everything pretty is killing loads of mods and I've had enuff.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Feature creep, release dates, etc.
I am completely aware of that.

Nonetheless, HTL Syndrome needs to be corrected.

 

Offline Goober5000

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Re: Feature creep, release dates, etc.
So, let's talk feature creep.  And I'll pick on ST:R specifically because I take full responsibility for its numerous and extensive delays. :nervous:

ST:R officially began work in August 2002, and we could have released a perfectly playable campaign in summer 2004.  The initial FREDding was complete, the initial beta testing was complete, and the campaign would have been easily recognizable to anyone who played the actual release.  (In fact, one of these days I want to release the campaign as it was back then, since I have backups of all the missions at various points in time.  I'd be interested to hear people's comparisons of it.)

ST:R is probably unusual among feature-creeped campaigns because none of the delay was due to HTL modelling.  Instead, I kept pushing for more and more polishing and enhancement.  We did several rounds of beta testing, and I rewrote several missions extensively (a few from scratch).  This is all in addition to the standard occasional periods of inactivity, not to mention the four month detour to put together version 3.0 of the Port.  And finally, when the campaign was essentially DONE in summer 2007, we spent a year and a half on voice acting.

If we had stuck to our original plan and released in summer of 2004, we would have released without the following things:
1) The Exodus, Blood of the Innocents, and Abandon Hope missions
2) The current versions of More than Meets the Eye, Ghosts, Secrets Reborn, and Last Stand
3) Voice acting (except for the sound effects in He Who Rides the Tiger)
4) The two mystery videos
5) The two trailers
6) Phoenix
7) A lot of mission polishing and bugfixing

And I suspect people would have been perfectly happy with it.  But I wouldn't have been happy with it, because I would always be thinking of all the cool stuff I wanted to add.

The other question is whether we could have released in stages: the first draft, plus an enhanced draft, plus a final "director's cut" complete with voice acting.  Instead, we waited until the director's cut was finished and released that.  The reason I didn't do it that way was that I suspected many (perhaps not most, but a significant number) wouldn't bother playing the updated version if they played the original.  Plus, the final release made much more of a "wow" impression than the 2004 release would have. :)

And then there's the danger of so many delays that the developers lose interest and the campaign essentially dies.  Sometimes raw perseverance wins over feature creep (in the case of ST:R); sometimes feature creep wins (in the case of TVWP).  TVWP was essentially abandoned, due to Lightspeed's disappearance and my preoccupation with ST:R, until Admiral Nelson came along and whipped it into shape.  Even so, without a new project leader, TVWP is going to collapse once it staggers across the Chapter 1 finish line.

It's often hard to tell from the outside whether a campaign will conquer feature creep or not.  And sometimes, even from the inside, the campaign leaders refuse to admit it to themselves.

 

Offline The E

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Re: Feature creep, release dates, etc.
For another example, Blue Planet: War in Heaven is subject to the same process.
There was a feature- and story-complete version of the campaign, which got a massive doing over after Darius showed it to General Battuta.
We do hope to avoid a development process as long as ST:Rs, though.  :nervous:
If I'm just aching this can't go on
I came from chasing dreams to feel alone
There must be changes, miss to feel strong
I really need lifе to touch me
--Evergrey, Where August Mourns

 

Offline Vidmaster

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Re: Feature creep, release dates, etc.
And I suspect people would have been perfectly happy with it.

NAH :mad:   Not me. I think it was the right decision to delay it until it had reached perfection.

I get angry too when delays are justified by HTLing models because I don't care about graphics. However, polishing, voice-acting and adding additional missions are good reasons.
For example, take a look at my own FortuneHunters campaigns. There was quite a gap between part 2 and 3 but the result speaks for itself.
I could have delayed it even more to have it voice acted but decided to release now. The idea was, with a released campaign, it would be much easier to find the actors. Saddly, the plan backfired since nobody seems to be interested in the campaign. Part 2 made 500 downloads the first week and ended with several thousand plus several thousand more on the DVDs, Part 3 has barely crossed the 200 by now.
Oh yeah, GO AND PLAY THAT CAMPAIGN PEOPLE! It's a quality campaign with never before seen tweaks to the combat formula, if you know something about b5 or not, go check it out!

Back to topic. What exactly is the current status of Inferno SCP? I heard they don't have people at the moment because everybody is focusing on "Alliance"? And Blackwater Operations, well ...
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: Feature creep, release dates, etc.
Inferno SCP has no missions done and a partial modpack. I think INFASA is doing slightly better but Mobius has vanished.

BWO I actually think is doing okay? Their FREDding was finished a while back, they're just waiting to...HTL models.