[General Battuta]

Man, no offense, but I really do trust QuantumDelta's hours of flight experience here.

[NGTM-1R]

If he can't roll his damn fighter, the man has issues.

Besides, I don't, and I don't think most of us in this forum, really give a damn about multi. That's certainly not why the game is still around.

[Mongoose]

Besides, I don't, and I don't think most of us in this forum, really give a damn about multi. That's certainly not why the game is still around.

I don't doubt that QuantumDelta is a fantastic pilot, but I do agree with this statement; most of us are far more concerned about what FS2's AI does than what happens in a 1-on-1 multiplayer dogfight.  What I do know is that, given my style/level of play and the difficulty I play on, I spend most of my dogfighting time staring at the ass-end of my target, at which point the Vasudan ships' hull thinness becomes very beneficial.  In fact, I think the quickest I've been able to kill something like a Horus has been in an Ursa, of all things, since I can just sit back and let them fly broadside across my field of fire.

[QuantumDelta]

In human vs human fights you're both rolling, you match eachothers rate of roll (which, btw, as a keyboard only pilot is really quite challenging vs joystick pilots, and mouse users either have to keybind it to their mice or they're a bit boned).

Vs AI, however, I shouldn't think it should matter, entire wings of ships die before you get there 

[Spoon]

Besides, I don't, and I don't think most of us in this forum, really give a damn about multi. That's certainly not why the game is still around.

I don't doubt that QuantumDelta is a fantastic pilot, but I do agree with this statement; most of us are far more concerned about what FS2's AI does than what happens in a 1-on-1 multiplayer dogfight.  What I do know is that, given my style/level of play and the difficulty I play on, I spend most of my dogfighting time staring at the ass-end of my target, at which point the Vasudan ships' hull thinness becomes very beneficial.  In fact, I think the quickest I've been able to kill something like a Horus has been in an Ursa, of all things, since I can just sit back and let them fly broadside across my field of fire.

Agreed. I spend most of my timing modding and playing user made campaigns, gave up on multiplayer after 3 sessions because its just not much fun to play.
Back profile issues became Really apparant for me when playing one of those babylon project campaigns. There are a bunch of fighters there with Really thin profiles when viewed from the back. Making them incredibly hard to shoot down.

[QuantumDelta]

Note my disclaimer about physics Spoon ;p

It wont help in TBP but if a ship being thin on an edge really does bother you, and you know you wont need a maxim or what have you, take your primary anti-fighter weapon of choice (proms/kay) and a morning star and you'll find it bothers you a lot less from then on (note; morning stars aren't meant to be spammed, only a few, extremely rare pilots can hold down ctrl/primary fire, with a morning star and keep their target pinned, I know I can't, but the keyboard is the hardest medium to do it on).
Additionally this is another reason why tempests beat aspect seekers, on ships like these you can use it as a third primary either when you get glancing chances on non-profile shots or when you get close enough to hit them sideways on.

In any case the AI behaviour is simple to manipulate, anyone who's played multi with me will see me spamming orders with our AI all the time, a few people have tried to mimic this more recently but I'm not sure they quite got the jist of it yet (well, apart from E).

For anyone who hasn't;

The AI, once they do their 'run away from you so you can only shoot at them from behind and at long range', if you stop shooting them, and just track them, and have your ai ignore them/focus another nearby target, the fighter you're still tracking will turn round, rather abruptly. When they do, not only will they be going slower, and not having locked on to you yet, not putting pressure on you, they will be turning in a way that presents most of their ship to you, with decent weaponry you can clear them in one pass.
Typically when flying against AI with no humans around to pester me, I tend to ignore fighters shooting me (unless they're all that's left), even on insane, and focus on fighters that are shooting my AI, they're easier targets and it clears up waves significantly faster.

If you fly intelligently you never have to deal with the 'profile' of Vasudan, or even some Shivan ships, because YOU control the AI (even the hostile AI), not visa versa.

[Snail]

I only play multi because I like blowing up other humans. It makes me feel warm and fuzzy inside to feel that someone on the other side of the world is seeing the respawn screen.


Also, stats.

[QuantumDelta]

Lets not turn it into multi vs single though cuz that will only end up going in one direction, and it'll piss everyone off ;p

[Spoon]

The AI, once they do their 'run away from you so you can only shoot at them from behind and at long range', if you stop shooting them, and just track them, and have your ai ignore them/focus another nearby target, the fighter you're still tracking will turn round, rather abruptly. When they do, not only will they be going slower, and not having locked on to you yet, not putting pressure on you, they will be turning in a way that presents most of their ship to you, with decent weaponry you can clear them in one pass.

Even though I now know of this exploit, I will absolutely refuse to use it. There a few ways that can drain the fun faster for me then A.I opponent exploiting.
Play to win =/= play for fun in freespace for me

Oh wait, this thread was about the Seraphis right? 

[QuantumDelta]

You mean you like the ai running away on max afterburner and having to chase after it wasting your time when you are on an objective?
Cuz it bugs the hell outta me, no human would ever do that - presenting such a zzz target, them turning around is about the same, just requiring less time.

But yea, it's why you see me spamming orders, to control targets or release them from control, to group the ai to make formation attacks and to ensure that targets are protected/attacked in a coordinated fashion, it's not much different from how you would really react if someone were really running away from you, if you stopped firing/locking them they're gonna turn around and come back at you (unless they're leaving the area, which just isn't a thing in FS).

It's one of the many tiny nuances that leads to the kill counts you see in our games ;\
And don't think for a minute that STV would be possible on insane without the use of most of them, good fred missions take all these tricks into account on insane.
That's why there are so few good ones.

[CP5670]

And don't think for a minute that STV would be possible on insane without the use of most of them, good fred missions take all these tricks into account on insane.

You can easily encounter Taurets and other ships head on in STV Gauntlet, depending on how you approach the mission. The basic strategy we used two years ago was to run away when the cruisers appeared, turning around occasionally and picking off the pursuing fighters at 1500m with the Prometheus S. Since they are chasing you, you will be seeing them from the front.

I've seen fighters head on numerous times in other co-op missions too, probably more often than in singleplayer in fact.

[QuantumDelta]

If they're flying in a straight line, exactly what makes them hard to hit ? :<
As a side, I never did approve of that tactic, ;p maxim/treb abuse from max range always felt cheap, like circumventing content.
I think BD and I only used it if we had ancillary players.

[CP5670]

It's not really hard, but the point is that you see them from the front where they present a thin target. The front profile of a ship is relevant in a lot of situations.

I used to stick with the Prometheus in that situation anyway, saving the Trebuchets for the cruisers.

[QuantumDelta]

But yea, head-on is the only way you'll find ai in profile regularly unless they're chasing a ship whilst you're chasing them, and in both situations they're flying in a straight line :<

Personally people missing a (relatively) none moving object is pretty bad no matter how small it is

[Macfie]

Another thing with the AI is they really only react to being targeted.  If you go after the fighters you are not targeting you can get into a more advantageous position before you open fire.  They will react once you open fire.  You can move into an advantageous aspect and open fire with everything you've got.  This works good with any of the fighters with a narrow vertical aspect.

[Mongoose]

Personally people missing a (relatively) none moving object is pretty bad no matter how small it is

With joystick ramping the way it is?  It can be harder than you think.

[QuantumDelta]

You say to the keyboard only pilot 

[Scotty]

That means don't bash the people who use a joystick for missing like that

[QuantumDelta]

Joy ramping is not entirely digital, the best pilots should be using max sensitivity and zero deadzone(if you're not it's even easier).
Keyboard ramping is entirely digital, there is nothing you can do but either get it right first time or have to constantly readjust.

Keyboard usage for pinpoint accuracy on a stationary target is one of the few situations where the joystick is better ;P

[Mongoose]

If I was using max sensitivity, I'd be even worse than I am right now, because my main problem is that I always overshoot whatever I'm trying to aim at. I was more referring to the built-in ramping in the engine, which a few coder-types have actually been working on to the best of my understanding; there were a number of test builds that they asked people to compare and list their preferences that I unfortunately never got around to.