Author Topic: Runaway Toyota's :: Important Info for all drivers! Toyota and otherwise.  (Read 13332 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Krackers87

  • 158 crew
  • 29
Runaway Toyota's :: Important Info for all drivers! Toyota and otherwise.
It's come to my attention this morning that a very heinous act has been undertaken by Toyota in the effect of trying to blatantly cover up and deny an obviously faulty mechanism in the electronic acceleration control unit that exists in almost all Toyota made after 2002. This fault causes the car to suddenly accelerate to incredibly fast speeds (120mph+) without any input into the acceleration pad, while the brake has little effect, as the car continues to accelerate with the brake pressed. There has been 2000+ reported cases of this event happening, 16 fatalities, and I'm sure much more that have gone unreported or hidden.

The most heinous part is Toyota has tried to blame driver error (people failing to realize they have the foot on the acceleration pad, and don't have the competence to remove their foot to save their lives, ie: bull****) or by claiming it was due to an over sized floor mat that made the gas pedal become stuck (ie: more bull****) in fact there is a video of a police officer and his family in a Lexus with a dash mounted, audio enabled cam that recorded the 30 seconds prior to their fatal collision in an intersection, where they frantically tried to do whatever they could to bring their speeding vehicle to a halt, to no avail. And its safe to say a well trained police officer would notice the mat holding the acceleration pad down, let alone any mildly competent driver. As well it also means that Toyota would claim that this man had no concern for his family and was pushing the pedal all the way down and speeding prior to said mat holding the pedal down (as the pedal would of had to be pressed almost all the way in for the mat covering it and holding it to be a slight possibility.)

Want something even more despicable? Toyota continues to sell these deadly vehicles without adressing the real problem at hand, by simply removing the floor mats in the cars they now sell. Which by the way there have been several reported incidents of vehicles without ANY floormats, succumbing to the same problem.

The word needs to be spread about this and ive started a facebook group to do so, and possibly help organize people into picketing or putting up flyers (which i myself will be doing aswell)

Something to keep in mind, just how many fatalities do you think were falsely attributed to drunk driving or speeding recklessly or other driver related deficiency, when this was the real issue? After all, dead people dont talk, and cant tell anyone else what happened, and also since they "reportedly"cant pinpoint any electrical problem it cant really be checked for in a crash with only deceased witnesses now can it? This is especially concerning considering the majority of fatalities attributed to this error, seemed to only be reported as such because there was a survivor or close witness, with the one exception of the police officer whose whole family died, but happened to have a dash-cam. Really think about that.


The facebook group:: http://www.facebook.com/pages/RUNAWAY-TOYOTA-Spreading-info-on-Toyotas-dangerous-acceleration-defect/173431857261?v=wall

There is more information with links to various news reports and lists of the vehicles considered to be at risk, although its possible other vehicles can succumb to this if they share the same acceleration control unit.

Please help me spread the word on this, if only a few people organize and stop people from buying Toyota, we can easily cost the company millions (just one car not being sold easily denies them 20-40 thousand) for throwing our lives to the side in search of bigger profits.

More info:

http://www.katu.com/news/problemsolver/68998462.html
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/RunawayToyotas
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/toyota-cover-runaway-car-concerns/story?id=9007163
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/RunawayToyotas/safety-officials-runaway-toyota-issue-closed/story?id=8987811
http://abcnews.go.com/Video/playerIndex?id=8980024
« Last Edit: November 05, 2009, 11:46:52 pm by Krackers87 »
Put this in your profile if you know someone who is fighting, has survived, or has died from an awp no scope.

just like seventies goofballs
he's waiting on last calls
well listen method man
'cause if you leave on the last line
don't leave on the ground kind
born just a little too slow

 

Offline NGTM-1R

  • I reject your reality and substitute my own
  • 213
  • Syndral Active. 0410.
Re: Runaway Toyota's :: Important Info for all drivers! Toyota and otherwise.
I call bull****.
"Load sabot. Target Zaku, direct front!"

A Feddie Story

 

Offline Liberator

  • Poe's Law In Action
  • 210
Re: Runaway Toyota's :: Important Info for all drivers! Toyota and otherwise.
I'd have to agree.

2000 reports out of how many millions of vehicles sold in that same time frame?

While sad, it probably falls within the failure rate of that particular part.  To be fair, I think Toyota does need to offer a free inspection/replacement of this part to anyone who asks for it.

But this is hardly something that requires the scale of action you are suggesting.
So as through a glass, and darkly
The age long strife I see
Where I fought in many guises,
Many names, but always me.

There are only 10 types of people in the world , those that understand binary and those that don't.

 

Offline iamzack

  • 26
Re: Runaway Toyota's :: Important Info for all drivers! Toyota and otherwise.
2000+ reports of the vehicle being stuck in 120mph mode and only 16 fatalities?
WE ARE HARD LIGHT PRODUCTIONS. YOU WILL LOWER YOUR FIREWALLS AND SURRENDER YOUR KEYBOARDS. WE WILL ADD YOUR INTELLECTUAL AND VERNACULAR DISTINCTIVENESS TO OUR OWN. YOUR FORUMS WILL ADAPT TO SERVICE US. RESISTANCE IS FUTILE.

 

Offline Krackers87

  • 158 crew
  • 29
Re: Runaway Toyota's :: Important Info for all drivers! Toyota and otherwise.
I'd have to agree.

2000 reports out of how many millions of vehicles sold in that same time frame?

While sad, it probably falls within the failure rate of that particular part.  To be fair, I think Toyota does need to offer a free inspection/replacement of this part to anyone who asks for it.

But this is hardly something that requires the scale of action you are suggesting.

I'm soirry but for something that expensive and important, its unaceptable, and the point is that theyve been covering this up very adamantly, denying this problem exists, so that number is probably much less than the real one, and as for fatalaties, since toyota denies the malfunction, if people die, tit doesent get reported as said malfunction, since theres no witnesses, so the fatality number has to be without a doubt, lower than the real amount.

Also there are cars in which fail safes exist, to cut off acceleration that toyota does not include in their cars, also, why the hell wouldnt this be existent in other makes? Toyota isnt the only one to use electronic accelerator control, yet thyre the only one to have this issue.

Also id like to point out my mother, owns a 08 Camry, and my sister is often in that car, and for you to rationalize a company's complete disregard for my family's safety i find insulting. This is not a "normal failure rate"if you actually looked into the information i painstakingly put together before making a judgment like that, you could of found the chart the shows the major spike in these incidents in TOYOTAS ALONE after 2002.
Put this in your profile if you know someone who is fighting, has survived, or has died from an awp no scope.

just like seventies goofballs
he's waiting on last calls
well listen method man
'cause if you leave on the last line
don't leave on the ground kind
born just a little too slow

 

Offline redsniper

  • 211
  • Aim for the Top!
Re: Runaway Toyota's :: Important Info for all drivers! Toyota and otherwise.
Turn off the car, frak.

Also, [citation needed].
"Think about nice things not unhappy things.
The future makes happy, if you make it yourself.
No war; think about happy things."   -WouterSmitssm

Hard Light Productions:
"...this conversation is pointlessly confrontational."

  

Offline Krackers87

  • 158 crew
  • 29
Re: Runaway Toyota's :: Important Info for all drivers! Toyota and otherwise.
Turn off the car, frak.

Also, [citation needed].

Not that easy, if you turn it off you lose power steering and power brakes in the said Toyota models causing the car to loose control as you can no longer effectively steer, or brake, there's a significantly more precise way to halt the car, involving putting it in neutral and braking, and using the e brake at the same time, but the problem is this shouldn't EVER happen, and B, what about people who aren't aware of this problem beforehand? Possibly a little surprising when you all of a sudden realize your car has decided to forgo your input and control itself, a little bit surprising eh? maybe not the best time to expect rational thought?

Seriously though, i hope that this isnt the widespread opinion that this issue is somehow ok, or excusable as "well some are bound to have faults" Really? I hope someone else has some strong opinions on cars trying to essentially kill people almost on their own.

And for someone who has lived in crowded city's, in a situation like this you may have zero time to react, as the surprise of you car controlling itself, may not lend the time for you to execute the somewhat complex, and in no means quick, way of slowing the car down. Imagine if this triggered when you were coming to a stop infront of a busy intersection, you would have no chance, and be instantly launched towards your demise, If you've lived in an area like DC you'll get what i mean.
Put this in your profile if you know someone who is fighting, has survived, or has died from an awp no scope.

just like seventies goofballs
he's waiting on last calls
well listen method man
'cause if you leave on the last line
don't leave on the ground kind
born just a little too slow

 

Offline StarSlayer

  • 211
  • Men Kaeshi Do
    • Steam
Re: Runaway Toyota's :: Important Info for all drivers! Toyota and otherwise.
Apparently ABC News has the story.

http://www.abcnews.go.com/Blotter/RunawayToyotas

I guess I should be glad my Tundra is manual.
“Think lightly of yourself and deeply of the world”

 

Offline The E

  • He's Ebeneezer Goode
  • 213
  • Nothing personal, just tech support.
    • Steam
    • Twitter
Re: Runaway Toyota's :: Important Info for all drivers! Toyota and otherwise.
Again, [citation needed]. Sorry, but I am not going to take your word for this. Are there reports about this failure mode available somewhere? Any technical reports, preferably?

Also, from that article:
"Toyota has announced a safety recall involving 3.8 million vehicles in which the accelerator pedal may become stuck at high vehicle speeds due to interference by the driver's side floor mat, which is obviously a very dangerous situation. Toyota has written to vehicle owners stating that it has decided that a safety defect exists in their vehicles and asking owners to remove all floor mats while the company is developing a remedy. We believe consumers should follow Toyota's recommendation to address the most immediate safety risk. However, removal of the mats is simply an interim measure, not a remedy of the underlying defect in the vehicles. NHTSA is discussing with Toyota what the appropriate vehicle remedy or remedies will be. This matter is not closed until Toyota has effectively addressed the vehicle defect by providing a suitable remedy."
If I'm just aching this can't go on
I came from chasing dreams to feel alone
There must be changes, miss to feel strong
I really need lifе to touch me
--Evergrey, Where August Mourns

 

Offline redsniper

  • 211
  • Aim for the Top!
Re: Runaway Toyota's :: Important Info for all drivers! Toyota and otherwise.
Huh, after a quick googling this looks like it's for real. I'm still kind of surprised that the brakes are being overpowered though.
"Think about nice things not unhappy things.
The future makes happy, if you make it yourself.
No war; think about happy things."   -WouterSmitssm

Hard Light Productions:
"...this conversation is pointlessly confrontational."

 

Offline Liberator

  • Poe's Law In Action
  • 210
Re: Runaway Toyota's :: Important Info for all drivers! Toyota and otherwise.
Don't bite my head off.  I never said it shouldn't be rectified.  I just said that statistically it's like a 0.5% failure rate, which isn't that bad.
So as through a glass, and darkly
The age long strife I see
Where I fought in many guises,
Many names, but always me.

There are only 10 types of people in the world , those that understand binary and those that don't.

 

Offline Nuke

  • Ka-Boom!
  • 212
  • Mutants Worship Me
Re: Runaway Toyota's :: Important Info for all drivers! Toyota and otherwise.
with the computerization of vehicles i think the number 1 reason people go to a mechanic is to get a sensor replaced. the last dozen times someone i knew went to a mechanic was because of a "bad sensor". something like an accelerometer controlling how fast you go should be triple redundant at least. frankly im surprised hardware and software bugs haven't caused more failures like this. when it comes right down to it any company will avoid a recall if the cost of it exceeds what they would expect pay in legal fees and settlements.
I can no longer sit back and allow communist infiltration, communist indoctrination, communist subversion, and the international communist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids.

Nuke's Scripting SVN

 

Offline Krackers87

  • 158 crew
  • 29
Re: Runaway Toyota's :: Important Info for all drivers! Toyota and otherwise.
Don't bite my head off.  I never said it shouldn't be rectified.  I just said that statistically it's like a 0.5% failure rate, which isn't that bad.
For 30,000$+ it sure as hell is, and remember, that figure is almost certainly vastly unreported.

 
Again, [citation needed]. Sorry, but I am not going to take your word for this. Are there reports about this failure mode available somewhere? Any technical reports, preferably?

Also, from that article:
"Toyota has announced a safety recall involving 3.8 million vehicles in which the accelerator pedal may become stuck at high vehicle speeds due to interference by the driver's side floor mat, which is obviously a very dangerous situation. Toyota has written to vehicle owners stating that it has decided that a safety defect exists in their vehicles and asking owners to remove all floor mats while the company is developing a remedy. We believe consumers should follow Toyota's recommendation to address the most immediate safety risk. However, removal of the mats is simply an interim measure, not a remedy of the underlying defect in the vehicles. NHTSA is discussing with Toyota what the appropriate vehicle remedy or remedies will be. This matter is not closed until Toyota has effectively addressed the vehicle defect by providing a suitable remedy."

All the links to relevant articles were on the facebook group located through the link ion the first post, but, i guess being the conveince of having to click one less link is that important that my point is negligible otherwise, here they are:

http://www.katu.com/news/problemsolver/68998462.html
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/RunawayToyotas
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/toyota-cover-runaway-car-concerns/story?id=9007163
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/RunawayToyotas/safety-officials-runaway-toyota-issue-closed/story?id=8987811
http://abcnews.go.com/Video/playerIndex?id=8980024

Also the whole floor mat thing is BOGUS its simply meant to put off and delay admitting the truth or to distract from the real issue, there is not a SINGLE incident i have been able to find where the driver claimed the floor-mat held the pedal down, and besides that fact, think about how the pedal and the mat are placed, how could the mat possibly flop over the pedal to hold it down, unless in all these incidents people decided to literally floor the pedal itself, bringing it close enough for something like that to happen.

Also explain to me why when i called Toyota earlier today, and confronted them with this problem, and how they were lying, they assigned a case handler in order to buy my moms 08 Camry back from her at full market price, while they haven't actually done so yet, they expressed unrestricted willingness to do so after i pointed out they were covering up the real problem at hand.

I believe that counts as a confession my good sir :)
Put this in your profile if you know someone who is fighting, has survived, or has died from an awp no scope.

just like seventies goofballs
he's waiting on last calls
well listen method man
'cause if you leave on the last line
don't leave on the ground kind
born just a little too slow

 

Offline Solatar

  • 211
Re: Runaway Toyota's :: Important Info for all drivers! Toyota and otherwise.
A 0.5% failure rate for something like the left brakelight or the windshield wipers isn't a big deal...If the gas tank explodes every once in a blue moon on its own, it's a big deal.  We can establish that different "acceptable fail rates" exist for different kinds of problems, and I'd classify the "car speeds up really quick with no input" under the "not acceptable" category.

 

Offline Flipside

  • əp!sd!l£
  • 212
Re: Runaway Toyota's :: Important Info for all drivers! Toyota and otherwise.
Thing is, some of these reported incidents seem to be from people who didn't even have the floor-mat fitted, or, at the very least, claim to not have them.

I find it kind of hard to accept that one of the people who was killed, a Highway Patrol Officer, wouldn't have considered that the pedal got stuck under the mat.

The 911 call involved is recorded, but extremely unsettling, so I will leave people to choose whether to find it or not, since it takes place just before and during an accident in which 4 people died, and is from inside the vehicle.

« Last Edit: November 06, 2009, 12:42:35 am by Flipside »

 

Offline Krackers87

  • 158 crew
  • 29
Re: Runaway Toyota's :: Important Info for all drivers! Toyota and otherwise.
Thing is, some of these reported incidents seem to be from people who didn't even have the floor-mat fitted, or, at the very least, claim to not have them.

I find it kind of hard to accept that one of the people who was killed, a Highway Patrol Officer, wouldn't have considered that the pedal got stuck under the mat.

The 911 call involved is recorded, but extremely unsettling, so I will leave people to choose whether to find it or not, since it takes place just before and during an accident in which 4 people died, and is from inside the vehicle.

My point exactly, and i didn't post the video here or on the face book group for the exact same reason.
Put this in your profile if you know someone who is fighting, has survived, or has died from an awp no scope.

just like seventies goofballs
he's waiting on last calls
well listen method man
'cause if you leave on the last line
don't leave on the ground kind
born just a little too slow

 

Offline Herra Tohtori

  • The Academic
  • 211
  • Bad command or file name
Re: Runaway Toyota's :: Important Info for all drivers! Toyota and otherwise.
0.5% failure rate (in what time though?) in this type of use is unacceptable. It should be a simple, idiot-proof control input integral to safe operation of the vehicle.

An electrical throttle can, if it's done properly, be used to control engine power safely and reliably; in fact all cars with electrically controlled fuel injection do that, no matter if the throttle pedal itself is dealth with mechanical linkage to the engine or with an electrical system. Of course, you would want a fairly reliable electric throttle; I would not recommend subcontracting it to Logitech.

That said, mechanical linkage throttles have had issues with throttle stuck open as well, but not on a level that would affect a whole production batch of cars. Why is it not particularly fatal, historically speaking? Because in a proper car you can push the clutch down and set gear to neutral. Personally I'd say the accidents and fatalities associated to this particular problem are probably not only the singular fault of the throttle system, but a compound result of all the ultimately unnecessary systems in the cars that cause an aberration from normal operation of the machinery to become a fatal malfunction. It's all fine and well to have better fuel efficiency, safety and ease of operation while everything works out normally, but when one can not turn the engine off because power brakes (?) and power steering requires the engine to run to operate normally, I call shenanigans on that sort of technology. A car should be able to remain fully controllable when engine shuts down during drive (as a result of whatever).

Things become all sorts of more dangerous if you truly cannot either turn the engine off or put the gear to neutral. If these cars' gear boxes cannot be switched to neutral so that no power is transmitted to wheels, then the issue becomes fully the car's fault. If not, I would expect any competent driver to react to uncontrolled power increase by turning the power transmission off, either with pushing down the clutch and setting gear to neutral, or putting the automatic transmission to neutral, either way. Then stop the car and turn off engine. If this cannot be done, then the issue becomes a much more of a death trap rather than an annoying malfunction.

Of course, personally I dislike power steering in normal automobiles. If you can't turn the steering wheel without power steering, you're either driving a too big car or you need to go to the gym. Personally, I've driven cars with and without power steering, both on highways and in cities and parking lots and in all cases I have preferred the cars without power steering, because they had a tighter feedback between the position of the steering wheel and the position of the front wheels, and they also delivered more precise information about the surface of the road; I had much more information about the traction of the road with the cars with no power steering. Plus, when the engine is turned off the steering becomes really heavy (though manageable) in cars with power steering...

Power brakes are in fact ok, because they are operated by a vacuum servo that uses a stored vacuum to increase the braking force, and the brakes can still be operated when the vacuum is depleted by pumping the brakes to build up pressure in absence of the vacuum servo - unless the car just happens to have ABS brakes in which case pumping the brakes becomes completely useless....

Same goes, to lesser extent, with automatic gear boxes, traction control and ABS brakes, in descending order of aggravation. Automatic gear boxes obviously make it a whole lot more convenient to drive automobiles around in an environment where speed greatly varies (read: towns and cities). But it's not really necessary after you learn to drive stick, plus you get a third, awesome pedal in your feet which can be used to directly regulate the engine's connection to the drivetrain. In addition, the car can be towed on neutral (what a revolutionary feature) and you can decide yourself when to change gears (which you can use to regulate fuel efficiency to some extent).

Traction control, ugh, where do I begin. Not only does it make people think their cars can be driven against the laws of physics ("But I had traction control, I shouldn't have lost the control of the car!") but they also prevent them from learning to react to weather conditions and to correct small mistakes. Essentially, it prevents a lot of small errors and piles them into catastrophic loss of traction when the interface between the tires and the road simply can not provide large enough sideways force to keep the car on the road - and as a result it goes into the woods perfectly straight and "under control". See, traction control has nothing to do with controlling traction. It controls the car's heading in situations where traction is already lost, and prevents it from turning sideways while waiting for velocity to die down and the traction to return. Saying that it controls traction is false in the first place; nothing in the car can control that except the driver, who must keep the situational velocity at appropriate level. Traction control simply makes it normally unnecessary to learn this; without traction control, you are forced to compensate for small loss of traction manually, and you get a warning of the road traction a whole lot earlier than when you have ESP or other driving aids available.

For partially same reasons, though to lesser extent, I don't particularly like ABS brakes either. True, it keeps the car controllable under braking and since it makes the basic instinctual reaction of any sane driver - to stood on the brakes when they want the car to STOP NOW OH GOD into an actually correct action and stops the car in fast, efficient and correct way. When it works. But again it removes the need for drivers to actually learn to brake in a controllable fashion, and can cause issues when malfunctioning, or when a driver assumes the car has ABS, or assumes that there aren't ABS brakes, since the two require different braking methods.


Summa summarum.

If the technology on cars goes to the level that they start suffering from operating system crashes and bugs and you need to restart the system to get out of error state, I call shenanigans. What are they going to do next, upgrade the drivers?
There are three things that last forever: Abort, Retry, Fail - and the greatest of these is Fail.

 

Offline redsniper

  • 211
  • Aim for the Top!
Re: Runaway Toyota's :: Important Info for all drivers! Toyota and otherwise.
"Think about nice things not unhappy things.
The future makes happy, if you make it yourself.
No war; think about happy things."   -WouterSmitssm

Hard Light Productions:
"...this conversation is pointlessly confrontational."

 

Offline Mika

  • 28
Re: Runaway Toyota's :: Important Info for all drivers! Toyota and otherwise.
I have done some work in the vehicle safety. Given the amount of stuff that is supposed to protect the personnel inside the car, it is relatively hard to believe this kind of major fault would be allowed to exist in a car, or that a manufacturer would try to cover it up. What I find suspicious is that I have never heard of a single incident like that in Europe. Comparing this to the flak Mercedes Benz received after the A-model was found to be susceptible for rolls, or at the Chinese SUV that failed miserably in the crash tests, it would be all in the headlines.

I don't say it is impossible, but as long as nobody can reproduce or find the error from the throttle control software, there is not much grounds on these claims. Nor can the manufacturer do much else than recheck the software performance. However, if it turns out that they have indeed tried to cover this up (for some unfathomable reason), it would likely be the kiss of the death for the company.

If this is true, I would expect that the most likely explanations are faulty chips, or electrical wiring shielding problems. Both of which would raise serious questions about the Toyota quality control department.
Relaxed movement is always more effective than forced movement.

 

Offline Mika

  • 28
Re: Runaway Toyota's :: Important Info for all drivers! Toyota and otherwise.
Having checked some of the stuff here, loose mats have turned out to be a problem and cause of a couple of accidents, not only with Toyotas. There have been no casualities whatsoever, and the drivers usually state that the mat prevented the movement of a pedal. Personally, I think the real reason should is negligence from the driver with respect to the driving environment. Then there have been a couple of incidents where throttle pedal fixture got stuck in the rest of the frame. Repairing that consisted of cutting a larger hole for the pedal - though this is something what I would expect manufacturers to correct. There is a large amount of close call incidents available where the driver was able to release the throttle pedal with toes.

Keeping in mind that similar stuff happened with Audi 5000 in US back in 80s, the majority of those cases turned out to be drivers simply pressing the wrong pedal. In one case the observers didn't see any braking lights lighting up. However, there have been some cruise control issues with Chevrolet where user could accidentally activate it causing sudden accelerations in, for example, red lights.

Besides, I thought that typical car brakes should be designed to excert more power on tires than the engine can output in any possible situation. By several times.

Perhaps Stealth can tell us more about this stuff?
Relaxed movement is always more effective than forced movement.