[blackhole]

A Mathematician's Lament

Read this article, and digg it if you can.

[Scotty]

Hmmm, I disagree with the authors fundamental comparison of math and music as both arts and nothing but.  Mathematics has enough practical applications at any level of life that mandatory teaching is a necessity.  However, the points he raises the way of teaching are rather good points.  I think we've all had that teacher who could only drone on in dull monotone; no-one can learn well like that.

Overall?  I can digg it.

[Mongoose]

Y'know, if this guy's conclusions about mathematics as an art form hold up (and I'm not entirely convinced that they do), it'd explain why I had so many difficulties with the mathematical aspects of my physics classes.  I don't have a drop of creativity whatsoever.

But seriously, I agree with Scotty that the fundamental comparison here seems a bit suspect.  While much of higher-level mathematics might very well be compared to painting or music composition for all I know, the fundamental underpinnings are at a far more practical level and have a slew of everyday real-world applications.  Not having even a basic level of mathematical literacy is a huge disadvantage in today's world, in a way that not knowing beans about art or music could never be.  I will agree with the author that math education does need a serious overhaul, and that we need to get kids engaged by the material at an early age.

[Flipside]

Problem is, I've been a composer for years, play guitar, keyboards, saxophone and dabble in a few other instruments, and I can't read sheet music.

Edit: In fact, quite a few famous musicians couldn't sight-read, the difference is with music is that you can sit down and listen and figure the music out from there, can't do that with maths, if you don't understand the notation, you'll never figure it out from just watching someone else do it.

[Hippo]

tl;dr

but maths are fun

[CP5670]

I only read a few pages of that, but I agree with his basic ideas. I like how calls doing math "playing" and can certainly relate to that.

As it stands, you don't encounter much in the way of genuinely interesting math until the graduate level (so most people never see it at all), but that is really an issue with the way the math education system is structured. I learned interesting stuff much earlier by doing things outside of classes.

Not having even a basic level of mathematical literacy is a huge disadvantage in today's world, in a way that not knowing beans about art or music could never be.

Is it really? In scientific or engineering professions, sure, but most people will rarely encounter anything beyond elementary school stuff in real life. He is quite right on that point. And I say that as someone who does applied math.

[Pyro MX]

"[...] Nevertheless, the fact is that there is nothing as dreamy and poetic, nothing as radical, subversive, and psychedelic, as mathematics."

Remove dreamy and poetic and this is pretty much what maths are to me.

"Mathematicians enjoy thinking about the simplest possible things, and the simplest possible things are imaginary."

I don't know what he teaches or how he does it or what he's on, but in my case that's just blatantly false. Our teachers love shoving complex stuff in our face just for the pleasure of watching us tirelessly trying to solve the problems. For what? Oh e^(2x)! Now that's a work of art! 3 hours of my life I'll never see again for a frakkin exponential equation.

The thing is, I wouldn't mind so much about maths if what they showed us at school was actually applied to the domain we're actually studying. Somebody once asked me, "Don't you feel satisfied when you finish a hard math problem?". No, I am not. I wasted hours on a result that doesn't even matter a attosecond for me. Give me a concrete problem. Will it involve maths? Fine for me. At least it will lead to something more meaningful than a senseless equation in the end. But that's not what we do. No. Just "compile" the equation, go to the next. And for the only applications we see, well, for the times they're actually applied what I study in...

I may sound a bit harsh, but after years and years of doing the most complex math classes I could take, I have yet to find a pertinent reason why I spent hours doing this. Apparently it developed my sense of logic. That could be discussed, but it sure did (and still does) raise my blood pressure to unprecedented levels. It's still not going down after 6 years. Maybe my eyes has been blacked out by the pure rage that maths induced me when I was younger, maybe I just refuse to see reason, I don't know. But I still hate maths "as-is".

Good read, though... still reading it! I think that there will be some interesting point in it. Pretty good find! Heck, maybe I'll grow an interest in that matter... but that'd be surprising 

[CP5670]

I don't know what he teaches or how he does it or what he's on, but in my case that's just blatantly false. Our teachers love shoving complex stuff in our face just for the pleasure of watching us tirelessly trying to solve the problems.

Grade school math teachers are rarely mathematicians. He's referring to professors and other researchers, although if you only deal with them through classes, they aren't going to be much better either.

But I still hate maths "as-is".

Can't argue with that. I hate what you call "math" too.

[Pyro MX]

I don't know what he teaches or how he does it or what he's on, but in my case that's just blatantly false. Our teachers love shoving complex stuff in our face just for the pleasure of watching us tirelessly trying to solve the problems.

Grade school math teachers are rarely mathematicians. He's referring to professors and other researchers, although if you only deal with them through classes, they aren't going to be much better either.

Then again, who said I was speaking about grade school?

[Mongoose]

Not having even a basic level of mathematical literacy is a huge disadvantage in today's world, in a way that not knowing beans about art or music could never be.

Is it really? In scientific or engineering professions, sure, but most people will rarely encounter anything beyond elementary school stuff in real life. He is quite right on that point. And I say that as someone who does applied math.

I do understand and somewhat agree with you, but there are far too many people who don't even get the elementary-level stuff down.  If you've ever walked into a store where the cash registers weren't working (and sometimes even when they are), you've probably experienced it in vivid detail.  At least it gives the rest of us something to laugh at.

The funny thing is, I actually loved doing math throughout grade school and most of high school.  It was only after I got to college and ran into some of the funkier ideas in more advanced calculus (think Calc II) that I started to sour a bit...and then it all fell to pieces with differential equations.  I had a bit more luck in the few classes after that, and the elective probability theory class I took was a whole lot of fun, but the damage was done.  The real trouble I ran into was in my physics classes, where that sort of "playing around" mentioned in the article happened on a regular basis.  My textbooks are full of whole-page derivations of a particular formula, that lead into derivations of a new formula by writing the original formula in a different way, sometimes repeated a few more times.  I'd usually sit there, read down the page, and just think to myself, "...but who the **** would fool around with this in the first place?"  Needless to say, my only hope for a career in my major is something squarely on the experimental side of things.

I have to say, agreements aside, I really do like the author's example of the area of a triangle.  It almost shocked me to realize that I'd never really had cause to sit down and think about why the formula was what it was myself...I just plugged it in and used it as needed from the first day I learned it.  I was the sort of kid who thrived on rote memorization and spewing back facts, so that was fine for me, but for the majority of kids who weren't, I could see that being a huge problem.

[Mars]

I personally only enjoy math when it's actually applied to something.

Physics was fun, Pre-calculus was maddening.

[CP5670]

Then again, who said I was speaking about grade school?

If you're talking about undergraduate classes, I don't think those are much better. There are occasionally upper level ones that are interesting with the right kind of instructor and system, but they aren't that common. Classes in general aren't a great way to get into math.

If you've ever walked into a store where the cash registers weren't working (and sometimes even when they are), you've probably experienced it in vivid detail.  At least it gives the rest of us something to laugh at.

That isn't exactly a typical example, and even then nobody would want to sit there and add numbers together. I certainly wouldn't do it.

As for the classes you mention, I can see where you are coming from, especially with the ODE class.

[Liberator]

"Mathematicians enjoy thinking about the simplest possible things, and the simplest possible things are imaginary."

I'm sorry, I prefer my "imaginary" 7'2" tall about 250 lbs lean with lavender skin, long ears projecting about 10 inches behind the head with 'huge tracts of land'.

[blackhole]

"Mathematicians enjoy thinking about the simplest possible things, and the simplest possible things are imaginary."

I'm sorry, I prefer my "imaginary" 7'2" tall about 250 lbs lean with lavender skin, long ears projecting about 10 inches behind the head with 'huge tracts of land'.

.....the f*ck?

[Colonol Dekker]

Math is more useful. Music is more fun. . This is all subjective and down to an individual point of view I guess.
 
Although I do enjoy reading my payslip and knowing how much tax i'm getting scammed for. As a recent convo pointed out (something I already knew) people don't apply their Maths in real life often enough. Everything from counting change to working out when the next train is due. Planning a holiday by counting the weeks ahead and knowing how many days there are in a month.
 
Without using a calender. Something you kids can't probably do

[Kosh]

I think the biggest problem is our Nintendo/Playstation/Xbox generation expects to be entertained constantly.

[Flipside]

I think doing the ground-work in maths is difficult, I'm fine with basic mathematics, mental arithmetic, etc, and have at least a glancing familiarity with Binary, though only the basic actions, addition and subtraction, long multiplication in Binaries for CRC calculation seems to evade me for some reason.

That said, I'd dearly love to be more fluent at stuff like Vector equations etc, but I'd have to re-learn a lot of stuff I haven't studied in 20 years, so it's going to be an uphill struggle for me, I can't remember most of the Algebra I learned because I've never had to apply it in my life for the last 2 decades.

[iamzack]

I know why I hate math. It's because I have a hard time with the really simple stuff. I am prone to ****ing up anything learned before Algebra 1. So I regularly screw up in harder maths because I think 23 - 6 = 27 for no apparent reason. SIGH.

[perihelion]

I'm kind of with Pyro on this.  Math classes used to be extremely frustrating for me because I couldn't see the point.  On some level, yes, I do enjoy taking on difficult problems just for the sake of overcoming something difficult, but I remember having holy hell during algebra I and II in high school.  Geometry, trig, those came naturally.  That was a physical relationship that I could see.  But it wasn't until I took calculus that math finally clicked into gear with me.  Why?  Because every blessed one of the examples my teacher used were based on real-world problems.  Calculus and physics are intimately intertwined.  One was invented to understand the other (thank you, Sir Issac).  All the problems dealt with something I could visualize and understand, render practical.  Calculate the fluid level of a spherical tank if fluid is entering at a fixed rate?  Calculate the trajectory of a bullet fired at 45 DEG with an muzzle velocity of V?  What is the average airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow?  These are things that actually happen, not some fictitious x-y plot.

Math doesn't have to be so fricking abstruse.  But my teachers in early math classes (especially algebra) gave me either nothing I could visualize or relied on examples appropriate to kindergarten, not high school.  I really don't care about abstract mathematical relationships that have no bearing on real life.  And I REALLY don't care how many apples Suzy has.

Sigh.  I've had a good friend that was a math major.  I had this conversation with him once, and during the part where I said I have no interest in abstract mathematical relations, he looked at me like I'd sprouted horns.  He later said something to the effect that physics was a "perversion" of pure mathematics.  And I was like, without physics, what is the POINT of math???  So, eh, some mathematicians are a little funny in the head about math.  (caveat emptor: I am a mechanical design engineer, and more than a little funny in the head about engineering. )

[Colonol Dekker]

This is why I think barwork should be like national service. I did nine months behind a pump and five of those were as a head barman. Rapid and constant use of maths is integral to it and providing you stick to it you'll never lose the knack. Only side effect is borderline alcaholism