[Solatar]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8388776.stm

European papers are dismayed by Switzerland's popular vote to ban the building of minarets. Some fear it will backfire, sending the wrong signal to the Muslim world and setting a precedent for other parts of Europe.

Several papers criticise the type of democracy practised in Switzerland, which allows ordinary people rather than elected representatives to decide on such matters. However, one popular Swiss tabloid defends the ban as a starting point for a debate on tolerance.

What do you guys think of the ban?  Seems absurd to want to ban them from the country, but then again I think the majority population deserves to have their culture respected just as much as the minority.

[Nuclear1]

I don't understand how building minarets is a threat to the dominant culture.

[Solatar]

Honestly, I was just trying to give an "opening statement" encompassing both sides of the argument.

I really don't think it IS a threat to the culture.

[Flipside]

Interesting thing is that there are currently only 4 minarets in Switzerland.

To me, at least, this is like a protest-vote, people have been worked up into an almost unnatural fear of Islam, partly by the Media, but notably with the more than willing participation of certain militant talking-heads.

The first two thoughts that come into the heads of most non-Islamic people when asked about Islam are either 'Terrorism' or 'Stoning', some people even think the entirety of Sharia law is about who can be stoned and when, and I hate to say it, but there are fair swathes of the Muslim community (admittedly, mostly the younger, male members) who relish the fear and apprehension that creates.

That said, this is almost certainly going to be overturned by the European courts, but it is an interesting result, and it does show that, just as the Christian church had to learn to talk to people instead of preach to them, Islam has a lot of work to do in order to undo the damage done by radicals.

[StarSlayer]

I read that as Marionettes the first time, which is to bad since that would have been amusing. 

[Flipside]

Great, now I've visions of Amnesty International posters of Pinocchio...

[Solatar]

I'd understand a "ban" like this if it were, say, building an over-the-top mosque in an historic village or something; but a country wide ban seems harsh.

[Blue Lion]

That'll show those muslim extremists.

[Flipside]

Exactly, it's a lot of scared people trying to get 'even' with extremism, oddly enough, by promoting it in a way...

[Woolie Wool]

but there are fair swathes of the Muslim community (admittedly, mostly the younger, male members) who relish the fear and apprehension that creates.

Does it occur to this segment of the Muslim community that making people afraid of them in a non-Muslim country creates the possiblity of riots, pogroms, and outright murders perpetrated by non-Muslims against them? If you go around encouraging people to be afraid of you, that fear will turn into hatred, which will eventually become violence.  If they are encouraging this sort of mindset, they are setting themselves up to be discriminated against, harassed, threatened, attacked, and killed, which is bad for the Muslims themselves, bad for public order, bad for European society, bad for human rights, and bad in general.

I'm not saying they should be treated like animals (they absolutely should not), but there is a very significant danger of it happening.

[blowfish]

Is there a real reason for this ban, or is it just the whim of a paranoid public?

I'd understand a "ban" like this if it were, say, building an over-the-top mosque in an historic village or something; but a country wide ban seems harsh.

Isn't that what zoning laws are for?

[BloodEagle]

They banned the putting of onion shapes on top of spires? Those crazy Swiss bastards come up with the most absurd things. 

[Flipside]

but there are fair swathes of the Muslim community (admittedly, mostly the younger, male members) who relish the fear and apprehension that creates.

Does it occur to this segment of the Muslim community that making people afraid of them in a non-Muslim country creates the possiblity of riots, pogroms, and outright murders perpetrated by non-Muslims against them? If you go around encouraging people to be afraid of you, that fear will turn into hatred, which will eventually become violence.  If they are encouraging this sort of mindset, they are setting themselves up to be discriminated against, harassed, threatened, attacked, and killed, which is bad for the Muslims themselves, bad for public order, bad for European society, bad for human rights, and bad in general.

I'm not saying they should be treated like animals (they absolutely should not), but there is a very significant danger of it happening.

Unfortunately, large groups of belligerant young men from just about any denomination are more interested in their own concerns than the knock-on effect of their actions, if a particular view of your religion gets you 'respect' (being the young male version of respect, not the genuine article) then, alas, people who thrive on their 'respect' levels will encourage that image.

[Kosh]

Interesting thing is that there are currently only 4 minarets in Switzerland.

To me, at least, this is like a protest-vote, people have been worked up into an almost unnatural fear of Islam, partly by the Media, but notably with the more than willing participation of certain militant talking-heads.

The first two thoughts that come into the heads of most non-Islamic people when asked about Islam are either 'Terrorism' or 'Stoning', some people even think the entirety of Sharia law is about who can be stoned and when, and I hate to say it, but there are fair swathes of the Muslim community (admittedly, mostly the younger, male members) who relish the fear and apprehension that creates.

That said, this is almost certainly going to be overturned by the European courts, but it is an interesting result, and it does show that, just as the Christian church had to learn to talk to people instead of preach to them, Islam has a lot of work to do in order to undo the damage done by radicals.

It isn't just damage done by radicals, it is also damage done by holding onto values that frankly are centuries out of date. In terms of social development, by and large with few exceptions they are pretty far behind us. Most of the islamic societies around the world haven't changed in hundreds of years. Such an evolutionary dead end is not something really deserves any respect.

And yes, if our positions were reversed and our society was backwards by hundreds of years, I would say the same thing about us. Fortunately for us, we are not that way.

[General Battuta]

"They"

"us"

"evolutionary dead end"

These terms are dangerous and shouldn't be applied uncritically.

A few hundred years ago it was the Muslim societies that were hundreds of years ahead of us. Change will happen.

[Flipside]

Once again though, the question is how much of that is representation, after all, if we judge Catholicism purely by the Vatican, we would get a very limited view of the religion as a whole.

It's difficult to untangle Islam the religion from Islam the culture, there are many accomplished scientists, artists and scholars who follow Islam as a religion, but are not so supportive of Islam the culture, only yesterday in the UK, a Muslim peer was pelted with eggs by a few other Muslims because she wore make-up and no veil and therefore 'wasn't a Muslim', kind of like how certain pro-lifers believe that a pro-choice person cannot be a real christian.

The concept a government based on a religion is a self-defeating cause in any situation, because society must change, holding it in place is not only unhealthy, I'm quite certain it is absolutely impossible to do, but Islam the religion is no more dangerous than any other religion.

That's my take on things, anyway

@GB: Oddly enough, several hundred years ago, Islam was far more tolerant of new thought and dissenting voices than it is now, in part it's a symbol of how the Religion seeping into the Culture has damaged both.

[Bob-san]

Multiculturalism IS racism/intolerance. You're singling out individuals and treating them differently. Optimally, everything you eat would have a list of the ingredients and what a person looks like or wears won't affect their treatment or perception. And beyond that, no uniforms outside of strictly enforced law enforcement and military would promote equality.

[General Battuta]

Multiculturalism IS racism/intolerance. You're singling out individuals and treating them differently. Optimally, everything you eat would have a list of the ingredients and what a person looks like or wears won't affect their treatment or perception. And beyond that, no uniforms outside of strictly enforced law enforcement and military would promote equality.

What? Uh, no.

I do not even understand how these statements cohere.

[Flipside]

Multiculturalism is a meaningless word to be honest, it sounds great, like a United Colours of Benetton advert, but it really doesn't mean much, because who defines 'culture'?

In the US, there is Freedom of Speech, to take my earlier example, pro- and anti-abortion. They are, by and large, secular groups, those that attend rallies etc, would not go out for a drink with the 'opposite team' afterwards, they are ideologically opposed enough for it to define their entire relationship.

However, those who simply take the position as a belief, and don't try to make it part of their culture, can often be friends for years without the subject ever coming up, and can still function perfectly well and respectfully as friends afterwards.

The people who create the divides between the cultures are usually the loudest advocates when it comes to defining it, so multi-culturalism is pointless, because it depends on a few peope defining each culture instead of society amalgamating the two as it has done so succesfully countless times in the past in just about every country in the world.

[Kosh]

"They"

"us"

"evolutionary dead end"

These terms are dangerous and shouldn't be applied uncritically.

A few hundred years ago it was the Muslim societies that were hundreds of years ahead of us. Change will happen.

I fully acknowledge that, but my point still stands. Frankly I don't see change happening, not with Saudia Arabia using its petrodollars to push radicalism and fundementalism. Based on what this guy has said, during the last 50 years the islamic world in general has actually taken a great many steps BACKWARD.