[Colonol Dekker]

http://www.sappershop.com/product_info.php?products_id=598

RE kick arse.

I was shopping for a regimental tie when i found this.

Discuss.

[StarSlayer]

I'd rather take a longsword.  You won't hew through bastards from nave to chops with that poker  Plus you can get a good carbon steel hand forged blade for a quarter of that things price.

[Colonol Dekker]

But we come with landmines commandos and armoured vehicles too.

[NGTM-1R]

Presentation saber. The guard and basket give it away.

[BloodEagle]

You know, the spear is actually superior to the sword. 

[Thaeris]

Now, what you really need is a modernized version of the gladius.

Such a weapon would not be out of place on the modern battlefield in comparison to other long-bladed weapons, as it's small enough for tight urban spaces - it's rather maneuverable - while it also bears a good deal of heft. Even if the combatant with the sword hits a chunk of ceramic armor (which won't give way like Kevlar to a knife strike...), the poor chap on the recieving end is still "gonna know he's been hit!"

Just imagine:

"Fix bayonets and draw swords!"

Although you and I would both hate to be there, that would be super-awesome.  

[Colonol Dekker]

Presentation saber. The guard and basket give it away.

Obviously cerimonial. But every inch a weapon still.

[StarSlayer]

Now, what you really need is a modernized version of the gladius.

Such a weapon would not be out of place on the modern battlefield in comparison to other long-bladed weapons, as it's small enough for tight urban spaces - it's rather maneuverable - while it also bears a good deal of heft. Even if the combatant with the sword hits a chunk of ceramic armor (which won't give way like Kevlar to a knife strike...), the poor chap on the recieving end is still "gonna know he's been hit!"

Just imagine:

"Fix bayonets and draw swords!"

Although you and I would both hate to be there, that would be super-awesome.  

I think some US Forces are being deployed with modernized Tomahawks if memory serves

You know, spears are actually superior to the sword. 

fixed

[Thaeris]

I think there's a solution to all the wants for a weapon here:

Bring back the sword bayonet; you get either a short sword or, placed on your rifle, a spear!

[NGTM-1R]

You know, the spear is actually superior to the sword. 

Spear has greater reach, true, but a sword is a significantly more flexible weapon useable for both attack and self-defense. Most of the guys throughout history who had spears would have gladly traded it in for a sword if they could. Starslayer's got it right more or less. In a unit situation the spears are probably superior. Individually...not so much.

[Inquisitor]

750 pounds, jeepers. I like swords, but not that much

[BloodEagle]

The spear is more versatile, though. It can be effectively used in most any situation. The same can't be said for a sword. Not to mention that it can act, albeit not as well as the real thing, as a quarterstaff in close quarters.

My main point(s), I suppose, is(are):
That with equally trained opponents, the one with the spear has the advantage. With opponents of no training, the spear has the advantage. With opponents where one is trained and the other is not, the handicap favors (is lessened for) the spear wielder, rather than the sword wielder.

Now if you have a shield to go with the sword, that's another situation entirely.

[Colonol Dekker]

I'm more interested in the Royal Engineer branding to be honest

[Sushi]

I'm curious what your basis is for comparing the relative combat merits of swords and spears... do you people spend a lot of time in a shield wall?

Seems to me like just about EVERY weapon is highly situational, based on how you're fighting and who you're up against. That's sort of the nature of weapons. If a weapon was ever popular, it was generally popular for a very good reason. People didn't invent swords because spears were too easy.

[StarSlayer]

The spear is more versatile, though. It can be effectively used in most any situation. The same can't be said for a sword. Not to mention that it can act, albeit not as well as the real thing, as a quarterstaff in close quarters.

My main point(s), I suppose, is(are):
That with equally trained opponents, the one with the spear has the advantage. With opponents of no training, the spear has the advantage. With opponents where one is trained and the other is not, the handicap favors (is lessened for) the spear wielder, rather than the sword wielder.

Now if you have a shield to go with the sword, that's another situation entirely.

Generally a one on one between a halberdier and a sword armed opponent favors the sword.  A hundred halberd verse a hundred swordsmen favors the halberdiers.  The spear does have a long range but also a large dead zone, once you get past the pointy bit it loses much of its effectiveness.  Trying to attack a spear formation with a sword is a daunting proposition, since its very difficult to get into sword range without someone managing turn you into a kebab with a spear. One on one is a different matter

A longsword has what is called a shielding ward or Schrankhut, you hold the blade out in front perpendicular to your line of advance and can then fan the blade back and forth by rolling your right hand around your left from right to left and vice versa.  When your spear armed opponent makes a thrust you can then pretty easily deflect the spear with your sword from this ward.  In general I find the person reacting to an attack has a bit of an advantage over the attacker; unless your getting into armored half sword or grappling (I often get in trouble with this since I am pretty attack oriented).  So most likely a swordsman will be able to deflect the spear thrust, while the blade is bound with the spear the swordsman can grab the spear shaft with the left hand make a step past the business end of the spear.  Unless the spearman has a sidearm(as in a messer or dagger not 1911 ) your sword wielder is only a triangle step away from doing something extremely unpleasant to your spearman. 

Coincidently when attacking an actual pike formation your swordsman will also be advancing using Schrankhut in odrer to get into melee range with your pikemen.  The difference being at the very least the first three ranks of pikemen will most likely be taking a knee, in port and finally in charge pike thats at least three rows in effective range of your sword wielder, more likely it will be five or six rows.  In effect there are a lot of pikes pointed at you and while Schrankhut is pretty effective at sweeping them away the numbers just aren't favorable.

As for basis I take a historic weapons course we cover longsword, sword and buckler, messer, dagger and hafted weapons (spears/pikes/poleaxe).  Most of our instruction is based on Hans Talhoffer's manuscripts and MS I.33 sword and buckler manuscript plus our instructor is very well versed in medieval history.  Funny enough we just had a class on attacking a pike line with a longsword at the last class. 

[BloodEagle]

I stand corrected on the 'trained occurence', though I remain stubbornly set on the 'untrained occurrences'.

[Turambar]

As for basis I take a historic weapons course we cover longsword, sword and buckler, messer, dagger and hafted weapons (spears/pikes/poleaxe).  Most of our instruction is based on Hans Talhoffer's manuscripts and MS I.33 sword and buckler manuscript plus our instructor is very well versed in medieval history.  Funny enough we just had a class on attacking a pike line with a longsword at the last class. 

you need to get a set of Bat'leths for your class and see how they line up against real weapons :-P

[StarSlayer]

I stand corrected on the 'trained occurence', though I remain stubbornly set on the 'untrained occurrences'.

If you grabbed fifty people off the street and were going to split them into two even teams one with swords and one with spears and had fifteen minutes to half an hour to train them I would put my money on the spears.  I think there are about five basic positions for pike and two of them are for at rest and marching so its pretty easy to train the basics.  So long as they stay in tight formation, don't get flanked and keep the pointy ends of the sticks directed at the enemy they've got a good shot.  Most men at arms wielding swords have been training for combat their entire lives, they've got like a PHD in killing.  By comparison the time in training a modern soldier receives is probably equivalent to not graduating high school.  I don't think you could train random people to be effective enough in the sword in that amount of time. 

That said if you took that same group and training time and had a series of one on one bouts, I think it would end up being like series of rock, paper, scissors rounds  (only with a lot of dead and grievously wounded people) then anything else.

I looked up the Batleth, assuming it could be effectively forged by a smith by the position of the grips you could probably wield it similar to half sword, though the way the blade curves kind of eliminates most of the thrusting attacks.  At best it might be effective at binding your opponents weapon in all the bits and moving into throw/grapple range but really, it wouldn't be my ideal weapon

[NGTM-1R]

you need to get a set of Bat'leths for your class and see how they line up against real weapons :-P

Relatively poorly. You're not quite as exposed as a true double-blade because you have a blade all along the center, nor will you telegraph your strikes as badly as a double-blade or quarterstaff will because it's short enough and held in such a way you don't always have to adjust your grip or move your body clear of it to strike effectively. But your effective reach is only about as long as your arm, negating much of the point of a weapon. All other things being equal, the guy with the sword can probably keep you at a distance and wear you down.

[Mika]

This is quite an interesting topic.

I have practised with the quarterstaff, less with a spear. Chinese arts seem to teach such weapons in a different way, in more individual basis. But person who is good with quarterstaff can use both ends of the staff and easily change his grip in less than a second, and can move at surprising speeds. Same applies to the spear - here I'm talking about spears that are only slightly taller than the person yielding them - with the difference that the weapon is balanced differently. And the pointy end is usually preferred to be between the foe and you.

Sabers and double blades I haven't touched with much enthusiasm yet. But one thing was apparent: they do require finesse.