Author Topic: I. Asimov and wrongness of science  (Read 5683 times)

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Offline Inquisitor

I. Asimov and wrongness of science
I need to quote Asimov more often.

http://chem.tufts.edu/AnswersInScience/RelativityofWrong.htm

Quote
The basic trouble, you see, is that people think that "right" and "wrong" are absolute; that everything that isn't perfectly and completely right is totally and equally wrong.

I had forgotten this essay even existed, which is a damn shame, I need to dig out my Asimov non-fiction again...
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: I. Asimov and wrongness of science
I hope people actually read the article, because it's actually a counter to the old argument that 'well, everything we USED to think is wrong, so everything we think TODAY is wrong too'.

It's a good find, and (as one would expect from Asimov) very realistic and positive about the scientific process, which is basically a way to steadily make things less incorrect.

 

Offline TESLA

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Re: I. Asimov and wrongness of science
Will give it a read and see
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Offline Inquisitor

Re: I. Asimov and wrongness of science
Its not a long essay. And even though sometimes Asimov can be a little verbose, its pretty easy to read.

But yeah, GB, thats why I posted it.
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Offline jdjtcagle

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Re: I. Asimov and wrongness of science
I've never read that before, very good find!  :cool:
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Offline Flipside

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Re: I. Asimov and wrongness of science
Been an avid fan of Asimov and his Foundation books for years :) He had, in researching psychohistory, developed a wonderful understanding of human thinking, I suppose trying to create even a mythical science that predicts human behaviour on the statistical scale would have some kind of impact on him., but if you read his earlier Foundation stuff, he showed even then a good understanding of the relationships between Government, Science and the Public.

 

Offline Narvi

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Re: I. Asimov and wrongness of science
Been an avid fan of Asimov and his Foundation books for years :) He had, in researching psychohistory, developed a wonderful understanding of human thinking, I suppose trying to create even a mythical science that predicts human behaviour on the statistical scale would have some kind of impact on him., but if you read his earlier Foundation stuff, he showed even then a good understanding of the relationships between Government, Science and the Public.

...I don't think he actually did any "research" into psychohistory. He just applied gas laws to human beings, (not surprising given his background in chemistry) and happened to be a very learned man.

 

Offline StarSlayer

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Re: I. Asimov and wrongness of science
" In the first sentence, the writer told me he was majoring in English literature, but felt he needed to teach me science. (I sighed a bit, for I knew very few English Lit majors who are equipped to teach me science, but I am very aware of the vast state of my ignorance and I am prepared to learn as much as I can from anyone, so I read on.)"

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Offline Flipside

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Re: I. Asimov and wrongness of science
Been an avid fan of Asimov and his Foundation books for years :) He had, in researching psychohistory, developed a wonderful understanding of human thinking, I suppose trying to create even a mythical science that predicts human behaviour on the statistical scale would have some kind of impact on him., but if you read his earlier Foundation stuff, he showed even then a good understanding of the relationships between Government, Science and the Public.

...I don't think he actually did any "research" into psychohistory. He just applied gas laws to human beings, (not surprising given his background in chemistry) and happened to be a very learned man.

Research does not neccesarily mean developing anything, I mean literary research on the fictional idea, its abilities, its limits, its rules and its vulnerabilities, and, most importantly, why and how they exist. Those basic precepts, like the laws of Robotics, do not need to contain technical detail, but the fact that the precepts of pyschohistory play a profound role in both the start of the Foundation, and in the climax of the series, its obviously something that he's thought about heavily in terms of 'what motivates society?'. Gas, for example, doesn't care what Boyles law says, it will obey them regardless, Pyschohistory had a particular weakness in that respect ;)

 

Offline Narvi

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Re: I. Asimov and wrongness of science
Been an avid fan of Asimov and his Foundation books for years :) He had, in researching psychohistory, developed a wonderful understanding of human thinking, I suppose trying to create even a mythical science that predicts human behaviour on the statistical scale would have some kind of impact on him., but if you read his earlier Foundation stuff, he showed even then a good understanding of the relationships between Government, Science and the Public.

...I don't think he actually did any "research" into psychohistory. He just applied gas laws to human beings, (not surprising given his background in chemistry) and happened to be a very learned man.

Research does not neccesarily mean developing anything, I mean literary research on the fictional idea, its abilities, its limits, its rules and its vulnerabilities, and, most importantly, why and how they exist. Those basic precepts, like the laws of Robotics, do not need to contain technical detail, but the fact that the precepts of pyschohistory play a profound role in both the start of the Foundation, and in the climax of the series, its obviously something that he's thought about heavily in terms of 'what motivates society?'. Gas, for example, doesn't care what Boyles law says, it will obey them regardless, Pyschohistory had a particular weakness in that respect ;)

Ah, I thought you meant that Asimov actually thought about how you could make psychohistorical predictions in real life.

I agree with you. Though unkind people might say that Asimov's stories are logic puzzles disguised as stories. *owns a dozen Asimov short story collections*

 

Offline Turambar

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Re: I. Asimov and wrongness of science
I agree with you. Though unkind people might say that Asimov's stories are logic puzzles disguised as stories. *owns a dozen Asimov short story collections*

thats odd, because I enjoyed I, Robot for precicely that reason!
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Offline Narvi

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Re: I. Asimov and wrongness of science
I agree with you. Though unkind people might say that Asimov's stories are logic puzzles disguised as stories. *owns a dozen Asimov short story collections*

thats odd, because I enjoyed I, Robot for precicely that reason!

Did I say this was a bad thing? :P
« Last Edit: December 08, 2009, 01:52:54 pm by Narvi »

 

Offline Inquisitor

Re: I. Asimov and wrongness of science
He was also a practicing biochemist in addition to being a sci fi author, teaching at the BU School of Medicine for decades.
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Offline redsniper

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Re: I. Asimov and wrongness of science
He also went and wrote the history of everything just because he felt like it.
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Offline Inquisitor

Re: I. Asimov and wrongness of science
He may have had a full brain and needed to expel some of that knowledge ;)
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Offline Flipside

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Re: I. Asimov and wrongness of science
They say that many Scientists turn to writing as they near their fifties though, it's even jokingly called a philosophical menopause in some science communities, which does serve to highlight how often it happens ;)

 

Offline Mongoose

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Re: I. Asimov and wrongness of science
I should probably know far more of Asimov's work than I do, which is very little.

 

Offline Goober5000

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Re: I. Asimov and wrongness of science
I hope people actually read the article, because it's actually a counter to the old argument that 'well, everything we USED to think is wrong, so everything we think TODAY is wrong too'.

It's a good find, and (as one would expect from Asimov) very realistic and positive about the scientific process, which is basically a way to steadily make things less incorrect.
I read the article and I actually strongly disagree with Asimov here, not because he's wrong (he isn't) nor because I'm a fan of English lit majors (I'm not), but because Asimov doesn't seem to be treating this guy fairly.  He transforms the English lit guy's argument into a straw man, demolishes the straw man, then at the conclusion of the letter ends up agreeing with the guy after all.

Look at what Asimov says at the beginning of the letter: "It seemed that in one of my innumerable essays, I had expressed a certain gladness at living in a century in which we finally got the basis of the universe straight."  It sounds like the English lit guy just wanted to say, well, hold on a minute; we might not have things as straight as you think.  In every century, people think they have the universe figured out, whereas in every subsequent century, that turns out to not be the case.  Yes, they have knowledge; yes, that knowledge is of great applicability and practical benefit; no it's never the whole story.

Asimov construes this as a binary right/wrong issue, whereas there's no indication that the English guy said that was the case.  Look at his response: "[I]f you think that thinking the earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together."  That's putting words into the guy's mouth.  And then look at what Asmiov says later: "In short, my English Lit friend, living in a mental world of absolute rights and wrongs, may be imagining that because all theories are wrong, the earth may be thought spherical now, but cubical next century, and a hollow icosahedron the next, and a doughnut shape the one after."  This is a flat-out mischaracterization.

The other thing that Asimov mischaracterizes is the replacement of old scientific concepts with new ones: "Even when a new theory seems to represent a revolution, it usually arises out of small refinements. If something more than a small refinement were needed, then the old theory would never have endured."  More often than not, the "old theory" continues to endure despite mounting evidence against it: it's not replaced as soon as it becomes obsolete, it continues to have its loyal adherents long afterwards.  The history of scientific discovery usually happens like this:

  • A new theory gains acceptance
  • That theory is refined with additional data
  • Even more data is found that "stretches" the theory somewhat, and has to be shoehorned in
  • The theory is modified in different, sometimes convoluted ways to accommodate "edge cases" of data
  • The theory is overhauled and replaced with a fresh, comprehensive theory.

This happens in science all the time.  The study of combustion produced phlogiston, then phlogiston sources and sinks and dephlogisticated air, then oxidation.  Astronomy produced the geocentric model, then cycles and epicycles, and then the heliocentric model.  The study of light produced luminiferous aether before quantum mechanics.  Newtonian physics gave way to relativity.

In fact, I am positive the same thing is happening today.  Look at the problems we now have with gravity: we don't know the gravitational constant to the same accuracy as other physical constants; the "Pioneer anomaly" causes space probes to inexplicably accelerate at the edge of the solar system; the angular approach to the Earth seems to very subtly affect the strength of gravitational slingshots.  And look how we've tried to explain it: dark energy and dark matter.  Gee, that sounds an awful lot like phlogiston and aether.  I'm certain that within the next hundred years there will be so many problems that we'll have to revise our understanding of gravity.

And finally, look what Asimov says at the end of the letter: "Naturally, the theories we now have might be considered wrong in the simplistic sense of my English Lit correspondent."  He seems to tacitly agree with the English lit guy anyway, even though the view was only "simplistic" in Asimov's retelling.

Some things, such as mathematics, can be said to be right or wrong.  All that can be said about science is that it is accurate or inaccurate.  Asimov recognizes this; the English lit guy recognizes it too.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: I. Asimov and wrongness of science
And yet there's no denying that things have been steadily made less incorrect, which is the point I made above.

Dismissing existing scientific knowledge on the basis that 'science was wrong in the past' remains an absurdity. Science is still wrong today, it's just less wrong than it was.

The biggest revolutions - in terms of relevance to our daily lives - are happening in psychology, which has yet to be mentioned here.

 

Offline Flaser

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Re: I. Asimov and wrongness of science
I'm afraid, it's you Goober who failed to grasp how science is "reinvented".

Newton laws are inaccurate, however within the fame and references used by (non aero-space) engineers is still just so damn precise that one couldn't call it wrong.
Relativity didn't invalidate the predictions made with Newton's laws, but gave even more precise results that mattered when one was dealing with astronomical distances or speeds.

It's not that we have data that no longer fits the old theory - we always have such data. We just can't know whether it's due the inefficiency of our measurements or the inefficiency of our theory.
When a new, better theory comes along it allows us make a better prediction and our measurements can be refined.

Part of the reason why old theories endure is that for the purposes engineers and scientists used them they had proven to be adequate. Unless the application of the new theory yields significant advantages that old theory will be used. This is one part lazyness and one part cost of retraining/remaking everything associated with the application.

Only in fields where using the new theory is essential will you find it applied. Like how relativity is always when dealing with astronomical distances or how it's also used when dealing with laser-interference systems (like laser gyroscopes).

That's the beauty of scientific theories: within a given set of limits they can be relied upon even when better, newer theories are discovered.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2009, 02:35:28 am by Flaser »
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