[Marcov]

...It's a flying bomb.

The Lucifer was a bomb, a giant suicide weapon.  It was all part of a grand plan by our "larger problem," one that may have been also testing the Terrans and Vasudans to prove their worth in some way.  And then it cut off Sol from the rest of them to pervent the infighting that led to the 14 Year War in the first place.

My thoughts anyway.

IMO the Shivans abandoned the Lucifer prototype. In the first place, the Shivans probably discovered that it would be destroyed anyway in subspace.  Spending five frakking reactors to generate an invincible shield? Why not just send in a fleet of biggies to destroy the universe?

The Shivans probably invaded GTVA space to gain revenge on the Vasudans. According to my speculations, the Vasudans were conquered by the Ancients. And now the Shivans fought back the Ancients. The Vasudans looked like Ancients, so the Shivans regarded them as enemies. So they attacked the Vasudans. Seeing that the Vasudans sided with the Terrans, the Shivs just tried to destroy all of them.

However, the Lucifer was probably just a small fraction of the entire Shivan fleet. The Shivans tested the power of the Terrans and Vasudans combined, by throwing in an average ship. Seeing that the "average ship" was destroyed in subspace, the Shivs just moved in a larger one; an entire armada of larger ones.
The juggernauts were used to destroy a star.

The reason why the Shivans didn't canonically return again still puzzles me. The Shivans probably just wanted the GTVA to taste some of their power, like the Americans dropping the nuclear bomb in Japan during WWII.

[darkdaej]

...It's a flying bomb.

The Lucifer was a bomb, a giant suicide weapon.  It was all part of a grand plan by our "larger problem," one that may have been also testing the Terrans and Vasudans to prove their worth in some way.  And then it cut off Sol from the rest of them to pervent the infighting that led to the 14 Year War in the first place.

My thoughts anyway.

IMO the Shivans abandoned the Lucifer prototype.

`


What makes you think the Lucy was a prototype?  According to the Ancients:
 

We did discover they are not invulnerable.
Their destroyers that darkened our skies like a plague can be harmed.
"

This means there was mostly likely a vast fleet of Lucifers.

It is also very possible that there are other shielded warships we haven't seen yet, but given the canon information given, we can only speculate about those.

But when I initially heard the Ancients' logs 10 years ago, I pictured fleets of Lucifers in orbit, bombarding their planets.

It made the futility of the Terran/Vasudan resistance to the Shivans seem even more hopeless, because no matter if they actually did win against this ONE Lucifer, the Shivans were most likely able to send more if need be...and FS2 showed that...with 80 Saths.
[/quote]

[Marcov]

What makes you think the Lucy was a prototype?  According to the Ancients:
 

We did discover they are not invulnerable.
Their destroyers that darkened our skies like a plague can be harmed.
"

I wasn't saying there was only one Lucifer, I said that the Lucifer "CLASS of destroyters" was abandoned.

[darkdaej]

What makes you think the Lucy was a prototype?  According to the Ancients:
 

We did discover they are not invulnerable.
Their destroyers that darkened our skies like a plague can be harmed.
"

I wasn't saying there was only one Lucifer, I said that the Lucifer "CLASS of destroyters" was abandoned.

You said "the Lucifer prototype", which implies there would only be one.

I simply misunderstood you because of your poor choice of words

[MatthTheGeek]

We did discover they are not invulnerable.
The destroyers that darkened our skies like a plague can be harmed.

That's not because they say "destroyers" that you have to think "destroyer-class warship". The Shivans are called the Great Destroyers, and that's likely to be the meaning of the sentence here. And if nothing proves the Shivans weren't using a Lucifer in the Ancient-Shivan war, nothing proves they were either.

The lack of proof... Proves nothing

[darkdaej]

We did discover they are not invulnerable.
The destroyers that darkened our skies like a plague can be harmed.

That's not because they say "destroyers" that you have to think "destroyer-class warship". The Shivans are called the Great Destroyers, and that's likely to be the meaning of the sentence here. And if nothing proves the Shivans weren't using a Lucifer in the Ancient-Shivan war, nothing proves they were either.

The lack of proof... Proves nothing

One, your correction of my quote shouldn't have happened, as I sourced it from the FreeSpace Ref bible, so "Their" should be accepted. and thus gives a slight reference to the plural form of destroyers as the number of ships and not to the Shivans themselves.  Note the non-capitalized "d" in destroyers in that sentence.

Second:  "...that darkened our skies like a plague..."    while is it not explicitly said, having your skies darnened by something implies either the massive size of it, or because of their large numbers.  A lucifer in high orbit wouldn't be very large to the observer on the ground.

[Vip]

We did discover they are not invulnerable.
The destroyers that darkened our skies like a plague can be harmed.

That's not because they say "destroyers" that you have to think "destroyer-class warship". The Shivans are called the Great Destroyers, and that's likely to be the meaning of the sentence here. And if nothing proves the Shivans weren't using a Lucifer in the Ancient-Shivan war, nothing proves they were either.

The lack of proof... Proves nothing

One, your correction of my quote shouldn't have happened, as I sourced it from the FreeSpace Ref bible, so "Their" should be accepted. and thus gives a slight reference to the plural form of destroyers as the number of ships and not to the Shivans themselves.  Note the non-capitalized "d" in destroyers in that sentence.

Second:  "...that darkened our skies like a plague..."    while is it not explicitly said, having your skies darnened by something implies either the massive size of it, or because of their large numbers.  A lucifer in high orbit wouldn't be very large to the observer on the ground.

A poetic exaggeration. One Lucifer wouldn't darken the sky. But one Lucifer accompanied by a load of Cains and countless Shivan fighters could be a reason for such a metaphor. Don't take things at face value here; they are supposed to be dramatic, not accurate.

Also, if we're nitpicking about words in the Ancient monologues, listen to the movies. It's clearly "the destroyers that darkened our skies", even more so when you notice that throughout all the movies, the Ancient narrator talks about The Destroyers, as a name used to describe the Shivans. It makes no sense to assume that in just one instant, the term destroyer would be used as a ship classification. It's doubtful whether Ancients actually had such a classification for ships.

[MatthTheGeek]

Listen to Vip, he is right

[Mongoose]

And if nothing proves the Shivans weren't using a Lucifer in the Ancient-Shivan war, nothing proves they were either.

The lack of proof... Proves nothing

The Vasudan scientists in Altair did say that the Ancient structures there appeared to be "destroyed by Shivan weaponry," which I kind of always translated as meaning "Lucifer weapons" myself.  I guess there's no definitive proof of that, though.

[darkdaej]

We did discover they are not invulnerable.
The destroyers that darkened our skies like a plague can be harmed.

That's not because they say "destroyers" that you have to think "destroyer-class warship". The Shivans are called the Great Destroyers, and that's likely to be the meaning of the sentence here. And if nothing proves the Shivans weren't using a Lucifer in the Ancient-Shivan war, nothing proves they were either.

The lack of proof... Proves nothing

One, your correction of my quote shouldn't have happened, as I sourced it from the FreeSpace Ref bible, so "Their" should be accepted. and thus gives a slight reference to the plural form of destroyers as the number of ships and not to the Shivans themselves.  Note the non-capitalized "d" in destroyers in that sentence.

Second:  "...that darkened our skies like a plague..."    while is it not explicitly said, having your skies darnened by something implies either the massive size of it, or because of their large numbers.  A lucifer in high orbit wouldn't be very large to the observer on the ground.

A poetic exaggeration. One Lucifer wouldn't darken the sky. But one Lucifer accompanied by a load of Cains and countless Shivan fighters could be a reason for such a metaphor. Don't take things at face value here; they are supposed to be dramatic, not accurate.

Also, if we're nitpicking about words in the Ancient monologues, listen to the movies. It's clearly "the destroyers that darkened our skies", even more so when you notice that throughout all the movies, the Ancient narrator talks about The Destroyers, as a name used to describe the Shivans. It makes no sense to assume that in just one instant, the term destroyer would be used as a ship classification. It's doubtful whether Ancients actually had such a classification for ships.

End of argument, as both the Ref bible and the ancient monologue videos are considered canon, and none is "more canon" than the other.

I use the ref bible for quotes as it has much more detail and insight into the FS universe than the game itself(FS1) even has.

So we're both right

EDIT:  Also...  If the Ancients had colonised distant galaxies(When we conquered and colonized in galaxies where we had no place, the destruction and the anguish and the loss were the clarion call of our doom.), one can assume they possessed HUNDREDS, if not THOUSANDS of systems in their empire.   

You're telling me ONE shielded Lucy ("These were not like the others, they did not die") annihilated their entire civilization?

Logically it makes absolutely no sense, there HAD to be more than one Lucifer annihilating them.

[headdie]

We did discover they are not invulnerable.
The destroyers that darkened our skies like a plague can be harmed.

That's not because they say "destroyers" that you have to think "destroyer-class warship". The Shivans are called the Great Destroyers, and that's likely to be the meaning of the sentence here. And if nothing proves the Shivans weren't using a Lucifer in the Ancient-Shivan war, nothing proves they were either.

The lack of proof... Proves nothing

One, your correction of my quote shouldn't have happened, as I sourced it from the FreeSpace Ref bible, so "Their" should be accepted. and thus gives a slight reference to the plural form of destroyers as the number of ships and not to the Shivans themselves.  Note the non-capitalized "d" in destroyers in that sentence.

Second:  "...that darkened our skies like a plague..."    while is it not explicitly said, having your skies darnened by something implies either the massive size of it, or because of their large numbers.  A lucifer in high orbit wouldn't be very large to the observer on the ground.

A poetic exaggeration. One Lucifer wouldn't darken the sky. But one Lucifer accompanied by a load of Cains and countless Shivan fighters could be a reason for such a metaphor. Don't take things at face value here; they are supposed to be dramatic, not accurate.

Also, if we're nitpicking about words in the Ancient monologues, listen to the movies. It's clearly "the destroyers that darkened our skies", even more so when you notice that throughout all the movies, the Ancient narrator talks about The Destroyers, as a name used to describe the Shivans. It makes no sense to assume that in just one instant, the term destroyer would be used as a ship classification. It's doubtful whether Ancients actually had such a classification for ships.

End of argument, as both the Ref bible and the ancient monologue videos are considered canon, and none is "more canon" than the other.

I use the ref bible for quotes as it has much more detail and insight into the FS universe than the game itself(FS1) even has.

So we're both right

EDIT:  Also...  If the Ancients had colonised distant galaxies(When we conquered and colonized in galaxies where we had no place, the destruction and the anguish and the loss were the clarion call of our doom.), one can assume they possessed HUNDREDS, if not THOUSANDS of systems in their empire.   

You're telling me ONE shielded Lucy ("These were not like the others, they did not die") annihilated their entire civilization?

Logically it makes absolutely no sense, there HAD to be more than one Lucifer annihilating them.

this is speculation but how about for some reason the shivans lost the technology or otherwise the ability to shield capships (hence why lucy is the only shielded capship) and the original fleet of Lucifer destroyers got whittled down slowly over the centuries by species figuring out the weakness the class and eliminating some down to the one we met or maybe a small scattering throughout the shivan fleet

[NGTM-1R]

End of argument, as both the Ref bible and the ancient monologue videos are considered canon, and none is "more canon" than the other.

I use the ref bible for quotes as it has much more detail and insight into the FS universe than the game itself(FS1) even has.

So we're both right

Not really. We run under the principle "it's a game first" so the version that made it to release is considered to trump where they conflict.

[MatthTheGeek]

The Vasudan scientists in Altair did say that the Ancient structures there appeared to be "destroyed by Shivan weaponry," which I kind of always translated as meaning "Lucifer weapons" myself.  I guess there's no definitive proof of that, though.

The Shivan weaponry is vast. It could be any beam-like weapon, and even if beams didn't exist at that time, Shivan bombs could have been just as efficient to level a planet. So again, the lack of proof proves nothing.

End of argument, as both the Ref bible and the ancient monologue videos are considered canon, and none is "more canon" than the other.

I use the ref bible for quotes as it has much more detail and insight into the FS universe than the game itself(FS1) even has.

So we're both right

Not really. We run under the principle "it's a game first" sor the version that made it to release is considered to trump where they conflict.

I agree with NGTM-1R. It is more likely than there is a typo in the FS ref bible than a mistake in the released cutscenes. And I'm for the "game first" canonicity.


And I'm just thinking : it's never said anywhere than a Shivan capital ship had a shield during the Acient-Shivan war. It's just said : "In subspace, they cannot use their shields. And into subspace they can be tracked." Maybe the Ancient were defeated only because of fighters and bombers shields. Not so unbelievable, it's a space shooter after all !

[Dilmah G]

Maybe the Ancient were defeated only because of fighters and bombers shields.

What a bunch of losers.

[MatthTheGeek]

If they were armed with ML-16-grade lasers, it would be absolutely possible.

That is nothing more than a supposition, but again nothing says that Shivans capital ships have shields. How do you expect the Ancients to take down the Shivans capital ships when they have a proper fighter cover with nearly-indestructible shields, and bombers with again nearly indestructible shields ? How long would we have hold weren't it for the Avenger cannon ?

[Vip]

If they were armed with ML-16-grade lasers, it would be absolutely possible.

That is nothing more than a supposition, but again nothing says that Shivans capital ships have shields. How do you expect the Ancients to take down the Shivans capital ships when they have a proper fighter cover with nearly-indestructible shields, and bombers with again nearly indestructible shields ? How long would we have hold weren't it for the Avenger cannon ?

We would fly a Dragon that was discovered in Roswell to the Lucifer fighter bay, hack the Shivan shield system with an amateur trojan and then launch a Harbringer straight into their flight control, showing the Shivan flight controller our middle finger before escaping the shockwave...

Wait, I think I've seen this already somewhere


Aside from that, I always wondered how advanced the Ancients were. It was said by Volition that they were only just a little bit better than the Terrans or Vasudans... but from which period ? FS1 or FS2 ? If FS1, then I can easily see how they could get raeped by the Shivans. I mean, look at the Terrans and Ancients. What's the biggest difference > We encountered an enemy that was a hard nut to crack, but weren't indestructible - the Vasudans. We were at war for 14 years, developing new technologies and weaponry all the time, so that when the Shivans came, it didn't take us long to adapt. In a matter of months, we have improved our scanners, and laser weaponry like Banshee or Prometheus evolved from "fancy toys" to basic weaponry.  We managed to utilize land weaponry for space usage (the Harbringer).

WARNING: PURE SPECULATION AHEAD !

On the other hand, the Ancient could have never met anybody like that. They ventured deep into space, subjugating everybody. After all this talk about how the Destroyers are actually the Preservers, who eliminate highly advanced races so that the lesser ones can have a chance of development, it's quite possibly that most of the enemies that the Ancients encountered were probably even barely capable of space flight. They didn't have to bother with upgrades, because if there were any problems it was them who had the numbers. They just flooded enemy system and took it over.

And then they encountered the Shivans. A single system of them. But they didn't want to die. It could be understood in many ways. Perhaps it's about their numbers; as observed during FS1 and FS2, for every Shivan fighter we kill, a new wing of them appears Or maybe it's the shields - remember the first mission with Shivans ? You could hit a Scorpion with the ML-16 for literally ages and it would not die... The only way of killing it was to use Furies to take down its shields.

And then the Shivans got pissed and started killing Ancients. System by system, cluster by cluster, galaxy by galaxy. They had te number and the time to do this. And the Ancient, not being used to adapting, couldn't help but watch as they get owned.

[NGTM-1R]

If the Harbinger were an ICBM warhead, it would have been much lighter. No, it was an orbital bombardment weapon. If you're just chucking stuff into the gravity well and you want it to fall, mass helps.

[FireCrack]

And I'm just thinking : it's never said anywhere than a Shivan capital ship had a shield during the Acient-Shivan war. It's just said : "In subspace, they cannot use their shields. And into subspace they can be tracked." Maybe the Ancient were defeated only because of fighters and bombers shields. Not so unbelievable, it's a space shooter after all !

This was exactly what I was going to suggest. Keep in mind that even before the Shivans came the GTA was on the verge of developing working shields, and by extension anti-shield weaponry.

It's possible the ancients never started down this line of research until too late...

[QuantumDelta]

Re; Reference bible, and I'm sure loads of people who were around at the time are likely to back me up

Ref Bible = Almost completely written before most of the game was sorted through.
Several things in it were re-written during the course of the game (Apollo = Bomber ;D?), and this is also somewhat reflected in the strategy guide (which was finished a little later, between release and ref bibleage).