[Guthan]

You got to admit, when we all played Freespace 2, I was expecting to see the Lucifer again. Sadly, we saw something even nastier.

Still; you got to admit what was the Lucifer's purpose? I think it was an armored science ship, since the Shivans were so interested in subspace nodes - they were probably got lost in another universe and wanting to head back. So every subspace node directed them in the hopes that that particular node would be the one to lead them back to home.

That all changed of course, when most likely when the Lucifer encountered the GTVA - it eventually found the subspace nodes needed to head back to home; thus bringing the Shivan 80+ juggernauts (probably scattered everywhere in the universe; to congregate and head home)

The lucifer than decided to quash any remaining resistance as (Shivans probably saw it as an affront for any lesser species to be using subspace.

State your opinions.

[Dilmah G]

If it ain't broke, don't fix it

In this case, it was broken, and the Shivans fixed it. The Lucifer had a flaw, which the Terrans and Vasudans exploited, to the Lucifer's demise. In response, perhaps the Shivans created a successor, the Juggernaught, or perhaps they just decided to send in the big guns, who knows. For sure though, the Lucifer had a problem, and it wouldn't have made sense to keep using it despite it.

[The E]

The Lucy is exceptionally good at one thing: Destroying Planets. It is also a very good PsyWar weapon, with those near-impenetrable shields. In FS2, it would have been less effective because its flaws were known to the GTVA, so the Shivans used an even bigger stick to show the GTVA who is really the boss around here.

[Dragon]

Also, count to how many plantes they had access in FS2.
Capella was the only colonized Terran system which they had reached, there's no point in bringing in planetkiller if there are no planets to kill.
Of course, they could have reached more if they had the Lucifer, but they also could have done it with their Sathanas fleet, which suggests that they never intended to go any farther.
This time, they wanted to blow up a star and I think that they would have done it regardless of GTVA resistance, maybe even presence.
In FS1, their goal was clear, to destroy Terrans and Vasudans. In FS2 though, we didn't really knew what they were up to. I bet that if GTVA had left the nebula and shut down the Knossos, nothing would have happened. They should have done it by the time the first Sathanas was destroyed (they had Meson Bombs by that time and knew how to shut down the node). The last moment to do it was when the second Sath appeared. If they had collapsed a node to nebula (or to Gamma Draconis, as it was useless anyway) they could have avoided what happened in Capella. And they had resources to do it.

[Iranon]

Still, if we just go by in-game performance, the Lucifer is the best thing the Shivans ever had... the Shivan Super Lasers outrange the later beam cannons by a comfortable margin, and the shields were rather effective.
Even if the shields were ineffective againt beam weapons... the Lucy would still outrange anything in the GTVA and shrugging off fusion mortars, flak and blob turrets is no mean advantage either.

*

Terrans and Vasudans defeated the Lucifer in subspace... is there any convincing reason why they never attempted to take on Shivan ships there later? With shields taken out of the picture, Shivan fighters are amusingly weak but still their only hope because capital ships can't fight back at Maxim range.

[Droid803]

FS2 Lucifer has SReds, not SSLs.
So if you just go by in-game performance at FS2-era, it sucks. It's a fat lump of armor.

[The E]

Terrans and Vasudans defeated the Lucifer in subspace... is there any convincing reason why they never attempted to take on Shivan ships there later? With shields taken out of the picture, Shivan fighters are amusingly weak but still their only hope because capital ships can't fight back at Maxim range.

Because, judging by the final mission of FS1, getting into the same subspace corridor as the shivan ship is non-trivial.
Because the Lucy is the only capital ship that has shields that need to be circumvented like that.
Since the Lucy was following a very predictable flightpath through terran-controlled space, it was easy to set up an intercept, in FS2, the GTVA never had that luxury.

[Dragon]

In FS2, GTVA never needed to do something like that.
They had their own shields and cannons capable of destoying shields, one even dedicated to do it. Any competent pilot should be able to fight Shivan fighters.
And fighting in Subspace is annoying. It strips enemy of shields, but you too, so it's more difficult. Granted, Shivans had weak hulls and GTVA had Maxims, but destroying a few fighters was not worth of fatigue.

[BengalTiger]

Why Only One Lucifer?

Because after the first encounter with the GTA and PVN, Shivan command figured out that 2 would be overkill. Pretty much like you go bird hunting with bird shot and not with .50 cal BMG's.

And after the first encounter with the GTVA in FS 2 (which was a complete and embarrasing defeat) they decided to bring in a larger boomstick, pretty much like you shoot people with a .50 cal BMG and not with birdshot.

P. S. Speaking of Maxims- an Erynies with 8 of those is capable of killing any canon FS 2 Shivan fighter before it gets in range of missiles.

[Iranon]

Still, in subspace it gets a lot more ridiculous. A few wings of Maxim-armed fighters could probably take out the whole Juggernaut fleet and their supporting craft (single shot kills against Dragons when fired from a quad mount... with a firing rate of 6.67 per second).

[The E]

Oh, that statement is sooo wrong.

For one, Maxims can't hurt Sathanases, not in a "Sath go boom" way, anyway. Even if they could, it would take longer than the average subspace jump duration.

[Snail]

Terrans and Vasudans defeated the Lucifer in subspace... is there any convincing reason why they never attempted to take on Shivan ships there later? With shields taken out of the picture, Shivan fighters are amusingly weak but still their only hope because capital ships can't fight back at Maxim range.

I seriously doubt that fighting in subspace is something you can do at your leisure.

And you also forget that Terran ships would be without shields as well (unless this is SGWP2). Even if your statement were true, taking out a Sathanas involves more than shooting it with Maxims.

[Vip]

Oh, that statement is sooo wrong.

For one, Maxims can't hurt Sathanases, not in a "Sath go boom" way, anyway. Even if they could, it would take longer than the average subspace jump duration.

Maybe not destroy them per se... but perhaps defang them ? Trebuchets + Maxims should do quite some damage to those BFReds from a comfortable distance. The only problem is getting into position. That would mean either flying near a Sathanas in an unshielded craft (no fun) or entering the node from the other side (is that even possible ?).

[Snail]

Look, let's just settle on the fact that fighting in Subspace is no simple matter and can have disastrous consequences.

[Iranon]

So what if GTVA craft lost their shields?

a) Shields are much more important to Shivans. Shield/Hull balance: 800/100 for Dragons, 500/325 for Erinyes, 400/250 for Lokis, 220/200 for Serapis. Interestingly, we missed the chance to see Osiris bombers as invincible gunships in the last FS1 missions with their insanely tough hulls (600) and 2 Prometheus turrets (good hull damage).
b) They wouldn't even matter because Shivans lack long-range primaries. Maxims vs unshielded fighters means weapons other than the Trebuchet (which is absurdly easy to defeat) might as well not exist for the Shivans.

Mind you, we're talking about a setting where Leviathan cruisers roar through space at an incredible 36 km/h, where Avengers work like energy weapons etc etc.
Pretty much anything should be wankable; it's not as if the tactics and ship specifications make an awful lot of sense looking from how everything works.

[Solatar]

Trying to take out Sathanas Juggernaughts in subspace corridors is just asking to destroy every jump node in Terran-Vasudan space...

[NGTM-1R]

Yeah, I'm not really sure how it would convey any advantage to the actual task of destroying the juggernaut.

Probably quite the reverse. In subspace, you have no shields. In subspace, flak eats you for breakfast.

[Droid803]

Plus the fact that there's no reason to do so when you can kill them just fine in normal space.

Recall that there was a strategy that would allow three GTVA destroyers to effectively engage the Sathanas.

[ragingloli]

The Lucifer fleet might have been a remnant of the armada that destroyed the Ancients, a custodian left behind to watch the development after, with no access to reinforcements. The actual Shivan Empire might not even have become aware of the Lucifer incident. By the time of FS2, the Lucifer model may be completely obsolete, or inadequate for combat (5 reactors to power the shields, two forward main cannons and by comparison weak secondary armament) and out of production and service since thousands of years, which may explain why they didn't send any in FS2.

[Eishtmo]

Finally, an excuse!  I've been thinking up a new Shivan theory, and this thread fits just right.

Why was there only one Lucifer?  Because the Lucifer isn't a command ship or a warship or anything like that.

It's a flying bomb.

Yeah, odd thought, but here's the idea:  The Lucifer, to our knowledge, only attacked the surface of ONE planet, Vasuda Prime, and we've always assumed, rather reasonably, that it was going to do the same to Earth.  But what if that wasn't the goal, and more importantly, what if it wasn't the Shivans that did decide on the goal?

The Ancients were aggressive and genocidal, killing all that got in their way.  The Shivans came in and wiped them out and then vanished.  The Vasudans and Terrans appeared in the wake of the Ancients destruction, two races that had the Ancients continued, would have been destroyed pretty early on most likely.

The Great War saw the Lucifer comes in, destroys fleets and installations, but doesn't seem concenered with planets at all, until Vasuda Prime.  Why would it go after Vasuda Prime?  Because it was the Vasudan homeworld, but how could it have known that?  Vasuda Prime is frequently described as mostly desert and with few resources.  Aside from people, the planet really didn't seem to have much to offer the Vasudans.  The Lucifer flattened it, while skipping perhaps half a dozen systems which, while probably not as populated as Vasuda Prime, certianly would have been of a higher strategic value.  Why go after the homeworld?  We'll get back to that in a moment.

Flash to the Bastion going to Altair.  It appears the Lucifer was CHASING the Bastion, and was there when the transports headed off to recover the data but not AFTER the data was retrieved.  Now the opposite chase is on as the Lucifer stays a step ahead of the Bastion to get to Earth.  Wait, why?  Why not just destroy the Bastion?  The Lucifer is basically invincible to all GTA and PVN weaponry, so why not just slay the Bastion, and any other ship that could launch the attack on the Lucifer in subspace?  It's not like Earth is going anywhere.  And why did the Lucifer go ALONE?  Sol is probably heavily populated, so why did it just throw a Demon at you as it was leaving when the Demon could have run point and cleared a path for the Lucifer?

Hell, more importantly, HOW did the Lucifer know to make a run on Earth?  Or follow the Bastion?

The Shivans are a symptom of a "larger problem."  They seem to exact "devine punishment."  So, what if the Shivans are the tools of that "larger problem."  The weapon of a self described "god."  One that might just be able to see such things and direct the Shivans thusly.  Maybe this explains how the Lucifer seemed to know to be in certian places, but it doesn't explain why it charged to Earth, if this "god" really wanted to destroy Earth, it should have easily been possible as long as the Lucifer went in under heavy escort.

What if destroying Earth was NEVER the goal of the Lucifer?  Let us look at the final cutscene again.  Now, when did you destroy the last reactor?  How many MINUTES before the Lucifer reaches the other side of the node were left when you destroyed the last reactor?  Timing is everything here, because the Lucifer explodes JUST as it's coming out of the node, with enough force to destroy it.

That seems rather curious, doesn't it?  If you take just enough time to do it, then yeah, that makes sense, but if you took LESS time?  Then the Lucifer held itself together until it got to the node.  I'm thinking it did it on purpose.  The Lucifer is a bomb, and it's target was the node.  The reactors may not have done a damn thing to the Lucifer.

Which brings us back to Vasuda Prime.  Why destroy that?  Well, look at what the Vasudans did after they lost their homeworld.  They dissolved a corrupt government and restarted their economy.  What of Sol?  No idea, but all the people there are still alive, and the GTA outside of the Sol were forced to live without it and had done pretty damn well considering.  And the Shivans just simply collapsed after the Lucifer was destroyed and were gone before the year was out.  The Lucifer being the command ship might explain it, but I thinking that mission of the Shivans was complete, and the extras were simply abandoned.

This might explain many of the Shivan's actions in FS2.  They were directed to not go beyond Capella after the Sathanas was destroyed, and instead were to send a message to the GTVA by blowing up a star.  And it may also explain their reaction to ETAK, it might have been their command signal and it made the Shivans curious in a way they hadn't been before, perhaps it even overrode their normal imparatives for a time, which might explain why they promptly slaughtered the Icini's crew after Bosch left.

The Lucifer was a bomb, a giant suicide weapon.  It was all part of a grand plan by our "larger problem," one that may have been also testing the Terrans and Vasudans to prove their worth in some way.  And then it cut off Sol from the rest of them to pervent the infighting that led to the 14 Year War in the first place.

My thoughts anyway.