[Mr. Vega]

The worst part about this sort of thing is that America has reached a state of technological and military prowess where a popular revolution is impossible. Literally impossible. It won't happen. The only possibility for any significant change in the United States' fundamental government is through a coup d'etat imposed by the military. which will likely end the way most military coups end (tyrannical oligarchy by a junta). All the guns and IEDs in the world won't help a "revolution" where the United States' governing authorities (both public and robber-baron) already controls everything--the media, the infrastructure, commerce, supply of food and other essentials. The foundation of American representative democracy--government by the consent of the governed--is a thing of the past. The government can govern us even if nobody consents. The government could probably manipulate sufficient people into consenting to things against their own interests to do whatever it wants. Hell, it already demonstrates this power on a smaller scale.

I used to be a Republican, manipulated into believing in things that went against my own interests--brazen endorsement of a religion I have no part in by all levels of government, insurance death panels, "wars" on drugs and terror and this and that which will not and cannot be won. It's amazing how easily the people can be led against themselves. I predict that within 20 years the American economy will completely disintegrate and the American government will use the military to enforce order. Whether or not the military obeys orders or deposes the federal government imposes its own kind of order on the country, I don't know, but I think I ought to be somewhere else when it happens.

Good job, federal government of the United States of America. You have betrayed your founding principles (not that they ever meant much; things like Jim Crow, Comstock Laws, and the War on Terror the price we pay for having a constitution written as poetry rather than a legal document), set the American economy on a path to self-destruction in the name of "prosperity" and "growth", and are now pissing away America's superpower status with soaring deficits and the use of boorish power plays and "do as I say, not as I do".

Founding principles? Let me quote Madison, who said that the American "democracy" must "be so constituted as to protect the minority of the opulent against the majority."

We were never a democracy. We became more like one over the years, thank to centuries of popular struggle that the textbooks gloss over mostly. If you think that we can't break the one party system like we broke segregation (popular support for it among whites back in the day was staggering) then you're wrong, dead wrong.

[Kosh]

Find people who see what you see; they do exist actually, just look at all half a million protesters who showed up in New York to protest the opening of the Iraq War.

And here we are, 6 years later, still bombing them. A fat load of good that did. We just had two elections, and in both cases there were major changes and many then incombents got kicked out, but here we are. Voting isn't working, partly because there are no viable third parties (most of them are margainalized and/or far too extreme to the left or right) and partly because of lobbying. Every attempt to get rid of campaign contributions has been shot down or wattered down to the point of becoming "voluntary" (aka meaningless). So, with protests, votes, and petitions all becoming more or less useless, how do you suggest we change the system? How do you plan to deal with the brainwashed hordes of both parties? Frankly I dont see any answers, and I dont see a lot in the way of cracking either.

[Leeko]

Honestly, America isn't even much of a superpower anymore. Except being a market and making PCs, we don't do much economically in the world except rack up debt. China pretty much owns us. But what I want to know is why the hell multi-billion dollar corporations think they need to squeeze as high a profit they can out of us, they're running us into the ground doing it.

[Bobboau]

it's amazing what 10 years can do to a country, I've been seeing a potential for a civil war breaking out for the last three or so years, mostly due to one half of the country trying to tell the other half what to do/how to live (and vice versa). the liberals want collectivism the conservatives want tradition, both sides think that forcing the other side to do what they want via the government is the answer, but that's only going to make everybody more militant. I think the real solution is NOT forcing people into things, reduce the size of the federal government empower states and city governments, but I'm a libertarian and your political leaders have convinced you I'm a dangerous anarchist.

also ITT liberals acting like Glen Beck.

[Rodo]

Interesting, so the hole planet is on decay?

Don't feel so bad, we are all in the same kind of shi*

And for the ones that say anarchy is impossible, I would say to them I used to think the same way until a couple of years back a hole lot of people got outside their homes and started making a lot of fuzz.

Two people died (on the records.. I'm afraid more died afterwards because of those events) and a president got removed from it's position, so be on your guard, because you may think everything is all right but the worst can come from the smallest spark.

[Woolie Wool]

Worldwide economic depression aside, I'm very optimistic about the EU, so know, I think the entire world is not going to ****.

How ironic would it be if the EU usurped the US's economic superpower status, considering the past 200 years of history...

[Flaser]

There's a book that all of you should read (or at least skim through). This is a look into the mind of those "influenced" people. People who should know better, but still year after years get the same scumbags elected. People who are the most organized group of voters whose actions can decide the outcome of elections. People who's decisions have little to do with reason...

...and a lot with hate and prejudice. They are:

The Authoritarians
a book by
Bob Altemeyer

http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~altemey/
It's freely available so feel free to check it out.

From:
http://skepticsplay.blogspot.com/2008/06/authoritarians-reviewed.html

The Authoritarians reviewed
Way back, Blake Stacey recommended to me The Authoritarians, by Bob Altemeyer. It is a free online book about the psychology of the authoritarian personality. I get the impression that Blake Stacey is in the habit of recommending this book to everyone. Allow me to echo this recommendation to you, my readers. It is a short, easy, and fun read. Bob is rather casual can chatty. He never gets bogged down with numbers, and yet he is clear about how all his conclusions are supported by scientific data. And did I mention it's available free?

The Authoritarians is one of those books that tries to answer the question, "What the hell is wrong with people?" The Bush administration, the religious right, the Creationist movements... Personally, I'm a moderate, an independent, but I won't touch the Republican party because it has gone to hell. Bob Altemeyer, I suspect is in the same position. But while I might advance few pet theories as to why this is, all I have to defend them is my super-humble rhetoric. Altemeyer's claims are not pet theories, but scientific findings. They could easily have been falsified, but instead they are strongly supported by a variety of surveys and studies.

His explanation? There is a certain kind of personality that is well-correlated with all these problems. Altemeyer calls it Right-Wing Authoritarianism (RWA). First, I should clarify a few things. Authoritarianism does not refer to the authorities themselves, but the people who would obey those authorities. Also, "right-wing" is used in the sense of being lawful or proper, not in the sense of being political conservative. RWAs in the US tend to be very politically conservative, but those in soviet Russia would probably be socialists. (There is also such a thing as Left-Wing Authoritarianism but that is not covered by the book.) Right-Wing Authoritarians exhibit the following qualities: submission to the established authorities in society, aggression in the name of these authorities, and wanting to enforce conventionalism on the rest of society.

The study of authoritarianism famously traces back to the Milgram experiments. In these experiments, the subject is told to shock another person with increasing voltage as part of a learning and punishment study. Soon the other person (an actor) starts screaming, going unconscious, etc. Of course, the study isn't really about learning and punishment, but about how far people will go if an authority asks them to. Amazingly, ~60% would go through the entire experiment (though they certainly don't enjoy it). This shows how even the small amounts of authoritarianism in all of us can make us do crazy things.

RWA is measured through a 22 question survey that scores people from 20 to 180. People who score higher, the "high RWAs", are correlated with the following:

    * Being soft on the crimes of the authorities themselves.
    * Religious fundamentalism and evangelicalism (which, incidentally, are very well-correlated with each other)
    * Ethnocentrism (which is in turn correlated with prejudice)
    * Fear of a dangerous world.
    * Self-righteousness
    * Illogical thinking and compartmentalization

There's a lot more detailed discussion of these and more in the book. There is also a similar discussion of the authoritarian leader's personality, which also looks bad but in different ways.

Now, if you're like me, you're skeptical of the efficacy of any such survey. But it turns out that there is a very rigorous way to create a valid survey that involves testing many possible questions and measuring their correlations. He briefly mentioned a similar survey developed in the 1940s that was discredited because of its poor design. The new one is scientifically tested. You might ask, "How do we know that this is all related to authoritarianism as opposed to religious fundamentalism?" We know because the RWA scale correlates with the above qualities better than any fundamentalist scale does. Altemeyer deserves lots of skeptical points for carefully explaining all this.

The most interesting part might be where Altemeyer suggests solutions to the problem. According to him, it would probably be ineffective to argue with these people directly. Instead, we should work with high RWAs them towards common goals, since lets them see outside of their community--high RWAs tend to feel a lot of pressure to be "normal", so we just need to show them. We should increase the visibility minorities. And we should promote higher education, which tends to decrease people's RWA scores. He also says it would help if we reduced fear-mongering, or if we taught kids to question authorities, but he doesn't think either of these things will realistically happen.

Aside from critical thinking, one of the major topics of skepticism is understanding why people think the way they do. By that standard, this is a great book for skeptics. It gives plenty of insight into RWAs and what makes them tick.

[Sushi]

It's also an open question as to how many of those Americans actually want it. A fair number of poor uninsured people would still not want a "hand out" because they have been so brainwashed with propaganda of "self sufficiency". Read "Deer Hunting with Jesus" if you have the chance.

Sorry, hold the phone. What's so wrong with self-sufficiency? What's wrong with trying to avoid handouts? Apparently I've been brainwashed, because in my book those are definitely Good Things. Care to explain why I'm wrong?

If everything does go all wahooni-shaped, it's the self-sufficient ones who will survive...

it's amazing what 10 years can do to a country, I've been seeing a potential for a civil war breaking out for the last three or so years, mostly due to one half of the country trying to tell the other half what to do/how to live (and vice versa). the liberals want collectivism the conservatives want tradition, both sides think that forcing the other side to do what they want via the government is the answer, but that's only going to make everybody more militant. I think the real solution is NOT forcing people into things, reduce the size of the federal government empower states and city governments, but I'm a libertarian and your political leaders have convinced you I'm a dangerous anarchist.

Definitely agree here. The power balance is too top-heavy: too much in the Federal government, not enough in local & state government. The question is, how can this be fixed? Once you give someone power, it's hard to take it away... Has any government every really shrunk?

[Mr. Vega]

I've been seeing a potential for a civil war breaking out for the last three or so years, mostly due to one half of the country trying to tell the other half what to do/how to live (and vice versa). the liberals want collectivism the conservatives want tradition, both sides think that forcing the other side to do what they want via the government is the answer, but that's only going to make everybody more militant.

For the last time, that's an illusion. Among the parties themselves there is little real disagreement. It's just factionalism to them.

[SpardaSon21]

Yeah, I've been seeing both parties wanting more and more power for themselves without regard for the average citizen.  They only disagree because they simply don't want the other side to get power.  Of course, Republicans and Democrats do have different ways of getting power.  Republicans say they'll protect us from the terrorists, we just have to sign over all of our rights.  Democrats say they'll protect us from being hungry and sick, we just have to hand over our entire paychecks and be dependent on them for everything.  Neither side gives a damn about what the people want.  And if the people do want a tyranny by majority rule, they can go **** themselves.  The Constitution is there for a reason, to protect the rights of man.

[Thaeris]

It's my personal belief that the Bill of Rights is the most perfect set of man-made laws ever written.

You know, the right to think freely, speak freely, be yourself, defend yourself, etc. Yeah, generally the right to be human.

...This unfortunately does not seem to compute with many modern/upcoming world-wide/US policies or proposals...

[Stealth]

I terrified myself tonight.  After piecing together all of the above individual betrayals into one big picture, I temporarily lost my mind.  I threw a duffel bag into the back of my truck, and turned on the engine.  I was in the middle of entering an address into my GPS when I started to realize what I was doing.  As if I had blacked out in the previous ten minutes, I took a look into the bag in the back--and pulled out a Remington 870 and boxes of ammunition.  Then I looked at the GPS--I had plotted a course from Omaha, Nebraska to DC. 

That bag is still in my truck.  The GPS is still there, programmed.  But I'm not.  I nearly became one of them tonight.  What scared me the most is that I actually thought it would work, that peaceful demonstration and action through Congress has been all-but fruitless in the past several years, and only the ones who advocate violence and who suffer a guilty pleasure through anarchy and chaos have a strong, influential voice in this country. 

I don't know if that was supposed to impress us, how "devout" you are to your cause, but let me tell you in all seriousness: that was not funny. 
It was not impressive. 
It was not motivating. 
I don't know what you wanted to accomplish by telling us that, but one thing is clear - you need help.  And i'm not just saying that. 
By 'help' i don't mean coming onto an online community where 99.999% of the people you have never met nor ever will. 
I mean serious, psychological help.

Anyone that 'temporarily' loses his/her mind, loads guns and ammo in their vehicle, and plots a course for the government capital needs. help.. 
Yes it's very very probable you're just telling us you did that so we can see just how serious you are, and how strongly you feel for your cause, but it's also possible that you really are tellin the truth.

But the next time you 'black out' for 10 minutes, maybe you won't 'wake up' and notice your gun in the back seat.  Maybe you'll have seriously hurt someone.

Not impressive at all buddy, not one bit.  Any respect I had for your left-wing views went out the window.

[Bobboau]

Sorry, hold the phone. What's so wrong with self-sufficiency? What's wrong with trying to avoid handouts? Apparently I've been brainwashed, because in my book those are definitely Good Things. Care to explain why I'm wrong?

it's the same reason that leftists call them selves 'progressives'.

Republicans say they'll protect us from the terrorists and the Democrats, we just have to sign over all of our rights and hand over our entire paychecks and be dependent on them for everything.  Democrats say they'll protect us from being hungry and sick and the Republicans, we just have to sign over all of our rights and hand over our entire paychecks and be dependent on them for everything.

you were so close I just had to make this one small correction for you.

For the last time, that's an illusion. Among the parties themselves there is little real disagreement. It's just factionalism to them.

I was referring to the people not the politicians.

[StarSlayer]

vote Bull Moose

[Bobboau]

well I vote libertarian, but as long as it doesn't start with a D or an R I'll support you.

[SpardaSon21]

Careful Bobboau, the Bull Moose Party was founded by Theodore Roosevelt, who happened to be a Progressive as well as a Populist.

[Bobboau]

don't care, the biggest problem is the 1.5 party system we have in place right now, the system doesn't work because we don't have any real choice, if you want to vote Communist, Fascist, or even Green I don't care so long as the two major parties lose ground.

[FreeSpaceFreak]

Nuclear1, you are being tracked by the FBI right now

[Leeko]

Not impressive at all buddy, not one bit.  Any respect I had for your left-wing views went out the window.

Go easy on Nuclear, I imagine there was quite a bit of system shock. From his reaction I can assume that these things came into a cohesive picture for him after a lifetime of mostly believing the government had some kind of ethics or even took its constituents into consideration. Like, imagine if you found out that the space outside our atmosphere was a giant painting and that the moon landing and such things were all fake. That kind of mind-blowing. He's in the Air Force, for crying out loud. He's serving this country he just saw for the first time the true nature of.

[Galemp]

The Authoritarians
a book by
Bob Altemeyer

http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~altemey/
It's freely available so feel free to check it out.

One of my favorite books. I read it as it was being published serially. Then I printed copies and gave them to friends and family.

If you're in this thread... that is, if you care about politics at all... you NEED to read this book.